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Thread: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

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    Default How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    During the span of 25 years, same-sex marriage went from being an unimaginable idea to settled law. During a shorter period — just about a decade — it went from being one of the most high-pitched culture war debates to something that politicians and activists hardly talk about.

    The data behind that evolution is striking. At the beginning of the millennium, about two-thirds of Americans opposed same-sex marriage, and a third supported it. Today those numbers have flipped. Seventy percent of Americans now support it, with Republicans showing majority support for the first time in Gallup’s history just last month.

    For those who study public opinion, the trajectory of the fight over same-sex marriage stands out. Why did we see such relatively swift change? Why were politics and public opinion so ultimately malleable? And what can that tell us about today’s culture wars?

    In this installment of the FiveThirtyEight Politics podcast, we speak with journalist Sasha Issenberg, whose new book “The Engagement: America’s Quarter-Century Struggle Over Same-Sex Marriage,” addresses some of those questions.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/videos/h...isan-politics/
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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    I knew people against it. They could never explain any harm it would do.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Complete horse S. This is what happened: the prohibition of same-sex marriage was found by the Supreme Court of the United States of America to violate the equal protection clause of the Constitution. F people's "attitudes". This was the supposedly irredeemably homophobic US Constitution in action, bitches. There was no vote that enabled same-sex marriage. In every vote that was taken, same-sex marriage lost.

    The Constitution is what "broke through partisan politics."
    You didn't click the link, did you?
    David G
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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    jeepers

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    If you HAD clicked the link, you'd know that your comments are off-topic. Off-target.

    And rather than use a link, you want to to take the time to re-type, or transcribe and type, the same info? Not likely. If you willfully insist on being lost in the wilderness... stop wondering why people don't reply when you wander off into some barely-related rant.
    David G
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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    No... there was more at the link than the blurb. There was a 52 minute podcast.

    And if you had viewed it, you'd realize that the topic is not so much 'how did same sex marriage become LEGAL?' as it is how the public opinion side of the issue shifted. It is partly by so adamantly and snarkily answering a question that wasn't asked that you miss the mark.
    David G
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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    There's a difference between judicial opinion and public opinion.

    Oborne, I have you on ignore, but every once in a while I'll view a post from the people I have on ignore, just to see if things have changed. Mate, maybe you should take a break? Step back from the computer...go for a sail, take a vacation. The vitriol that explodes from your posts in this thread really isn't healthy.

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    To answer the OP, and to not go off on some mindless tirade, I think this happened:

    Previously - same-sex marriage was not a thing. It wasn't part of societal norms a few decades ago. It was, therefore, seen as 'a bit of a threat' to life-as-normal. We all want an easy life, no? As John Smith states above, when individuals were asked (by themselves, by other people, and by the media) precisely what this threat would actually manifest itself as, there was no answer: there is no threat.

    Today - same-sex marriage is a thing. We, as a society, have 'extended the franchise' on the public declaration of what we define as a family, and broadened what are our new cultural norms.

    Inclusivity wins ... and (as a Socialist) I thoroughly approve.

    Andy
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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    The "threat" was to Christian teaching in an overtly Christian society.

    Somewhere in the Jewish testament it says no, so "christians" have to disapprove.

    I suspect that 30% of US citizens still feel that their religion is threatened by those ungodly "queers and poofters".
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Osborne, abortion was also "settled by the Constitution" in your country. That doesn't stop the RWW from trying to pack the courts and overturn it to this day. The Constitution, in practice, is what you interpret it to be.

    I think what happened is that LGBT people ca
    me out of the closet en masse over the past few decades. Suddenly almost every family had a loved one who was gay. Every congregation had a bunch. It's hard to rile up the people in the pews about "sin" when it applies to people they know and love.

    Sure, al
    most every family also probably has a loved one who aborted. But most of those stay in the closet.

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Off topic but possibly germane to the subject, what happened here, and that quite some years back, is that it was decided that the legal issues around marriage, that of inheritance, property rights, next of kin rights, tax benefits and a whole lot of other things that are part of the law regarding marriage, should be extended to those in long term relationships, same sex relationships being among those.
    The antipathy of large chunks of society to homosexuality had very little to do with the changes.

    Mind you, I think that people here are, for the most part pretty much "what you do in your bedroom is no business of mine" and see stable relationships as a good thing no matter whether polyamorous, bi, gay, trans or whatever other flavour they might be.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Off topic but possibly germane to the subject, what happened here, and that quite some years back, is that it was decided that the legal issues around marriage, that of inheritance, property rights, next of kin rights, tax benefits and a whole lot of other things that are part of the law regarding marriage, should be extended to those in long term relationships, same sex relationships being among those.
    The antipathy of large chunks of society to homosexuality had very little to do with the changes.

    Mind you, I think that people here are, for the most part pretty much "what you do in your bedroom is no business of mine" and see stable relationships as a good thing no matter whether polyamorous, bi, gay, trans or whatever other flavour they might be.

    John Welsford
    That happened here too, but it was not Marriage. We had to wait for some time for marriage to be recognised in law.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Just my humble opinion: Marriage is a LEGAL contract. It is the state, not the church, that issues the license and the certificate; and the divorce if needed.

    Marriage is a legal contract between two consenting adults.

    The ceremony may be performed by the clergy, but that's because the state allows it.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The "threat" was to Christian teaching in an overtly Christian society. Somewhere in the Jewish testament it says no, so "christians" have to disapprove. I suspect that 30% of US citizens still feel that their religion is threatened by those ungodly "queers and poofters".
    FWIW, Several major Christian denominations in the US now recognize and perform same-sex marriages; the Episcopalians (anglican), ELCA (by far the largest group of Lutherans, with 3-1/2 million members), the Presbyterians, and the UCC. The Methodists are split over the issue, and may break into two denominations.

    FWIW, almost nobody in the US would use the world 'poofter', and most wouldn't even understand it. But I think the 30% figure is about right, or maybe a little low.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    It's not a word I've heard spoken here for thirty years, easy.

    Andy
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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    FWIW, Several major Christian denominations in the US now recognize and perform same-sex marriages; the Episcopalians (anglican), ELCA (by far the largest group of Lutherans, with 3-1/2 million members), the Presbyterians, and the UCC. The Methodists are split over the issue, and may break into two denominations.

    FWIW, almost nobody in the US would use the world 'poofter', and most wouldn't even understand it. But I think the 30% figure is about right, or maybe a little low.
    Yes, my Unitarian Universalist minister wife has performed a number of marriage ceremonies over the years for same-sex couples. It's not any sort of big deal these days. Which highlights the dramatic shift in attitudes that was the point of the OP...


    ETA... oh, dear. It appears that OR has been 'scrubbed'. He's really not a bad-hearted sort, but the quality of his contributions has always been harsh, and it seems to me that they've been getting less coherent recently. Age related? I've been wondering the same about several Bilge Rats lately... new thread time, methinks.
    David G
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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    ETA... oh, dear. It appears that OR has been 'scrubbed'. He's really not a bad-hearted sort, but the quality of his contributions has always been harsh, and it seems to me that they've been getting less coherent recently. Age related? I've been wondering the same about several Bilge Rats lately... new thread time, methinks.
    I was wondering who triggered that other thread.
    I go and mow the grass and spend time in the workshop and miss the fireworks.
    Not a bad sort, but with a tenuous grasp of reality, due to the impenetrable fog of flawed logic that he occupies..
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    FWIW, Several major Christian denominations in the US now recognize and perform same-sex marriages; the Episcopalians (anglican), ELCA (by far the largest group of Lutherans, with 3-1/2 million members), the Presbyterians, and the UCC. The Methodists are split over the issue, and may break into two denominations.

    FWIW, almost nobody in the US would use the world 'poofter', and most wouldn't even understand it. But I think the 30% figure is about right, or maybe a little low.
    I cannot comment about the Non-Conformist Sects, who generally stay out of the news, keep their heads down and get on with it.

    The Anglican Church has long been said to be a refuge for gays in their clergy Richard Coles did receive some bigoted flack from some parishioners, but I think that is an exception rather than the rule.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Yes, my Unitarian Universalist minister wife has performed a number of marriage ceremonies over the years for same-sex couples. It's not any sort of big deal these days. Which highlights the dramatic shift in attitudes that was the point of the OP...


    ETA... oh, dear. It appears that OR has been 'scrubbed'. He's really not a bad-hearted sort, but the quality of his contributions has always been harsh, and it seems to me that they've been getting less coherent recently. Age related? I've been wondering the same about several Bilge Rats lately... new thread time, methinks.
    Maybe people noticed their lives didn't change after the two guys down the street got married.?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I cannot comment about the Non-Conformist Sects . . .
    I don't think we have any Conformists at all on this side of the pond.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: How Same-Sex Marriage Broke Through Partisan Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I don't think we have any Conformists at all on this side of the pond.
    Caflics?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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