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Thread: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

  1. #1
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    Default PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Greetings forum goers!

    Iím a new member, and wooden boat owner. Thus far Iíve been unsuccessful in finding the info Iím looking for. Iím on the coast of BC and recently picked up a 1947 ex troller. A friend of mine has a very similar one thatís a bit older. Essentially Iím looking to glean any and all info regarding their construction, also perhaps some vessel specific info in anyone should be privy to that sort of thing. Sheís called Black Magic and somehow I doubt thatís her original name. Is there some sort of database where I can look up her history with an ID number or something? The big question Iíve had and canít seem to find anything about is the transom style on both my friend and my boats. Both has planking that runs vertically. The gentleman Who sold it to me referred to the style as a picket transom which i had never heard. Neither appear to be caulked, and thatís what Iím curious about. Should they be? Iíve yet to find even a picture online of a similarly built transom and about as much info. If there are any details I may be leaving out that would important please donít hesitate to ask. Any and all help/info is much appreciated. Thank you all in advance

  2. #2
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    You can look up your boat by name or number on this site:

    Nauticapedia-Maritime Heritage

    Once you know who built the boat you can learn a lot more about the construction. The 'picket stern' or vertical planks around a canoe or horsheshoe stern seems to have been fairly common in BC-built trollers and combo troller/gillnet boats of a certain age. See if you can post a few pictures, that might get you some more detailed responses.

    Good luck with your new boat!

    -C.
    1960 LeClerq 36' Commercial Salmon Troller F/V Alcor

  3. #3
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    There are many styles and versions of fishing boats throughout the PNW, each yard or designer having their own unique characteristics. Tad Roberts would probably be able to shed a lot of light on this. He's active here sometimes, but you can also find him on Facebook. Theres a wooden boat forum FB page as well, which may reveal lots of info.


    Got a picture of this transom?
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  6. #6
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    A quick search of the Nauticapedia Canada site turns up 2 entries for Black Magic. One is closed, with no details at all and the other is a large fibreglass power yacht.


    A similar search on the Canadian Vessel Registration Query System turns up 6 vessels named Black Magic, Black Magic plus Black Magics I through V. None of the currently active registrations appear to be your boat. With the closed registrations, there is no information about the boats.

    This leads me to suspect that your boat is not currently registered or possibly even licensed Ė I donít see a license number in the photos. Given the size of the boat, assuming it has a motor greater than 10 HP and that it is used for pleasure, it has to be one or the other. Your boat may not be legal if it has neither.
    Alex

    "The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore.Ē
    - Vincent van Gogh

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  7. #7
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    This may be gratuitous, but make sure you have ballast when you leave the dock. Trollers are designed to be loaded, ice, fish and fuel. An empty troller will be really corky and in some case dangerous. My father in law sold a troller many years ago to another fisherman. The new owner, against advice, took her out empty and she rolled over and sank
    Elect a clown expect a circus

  8. #8
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    This may be gratuitous, but make sure you have ballast when you leave the dock. Trollers are designed to be loaded, ice, fish and fuel. An empty troller will be really corky and in some case dangerous. My father in law sold a troller many years ago to another fisherman. The new owner, against advice, took her out empty and she rolled over and sank
    Good advice. I'd also want to have a really good look at the hull fasteners on that boat before I'd take her farther away from the dock than I could swim. She is certainly iron fastened and unless she has been refastened I would expect they are holding the boat together with nothing more than memory and promises at this point. There have been several boats that showed up on the forum within the past year or two that sank or nearly sank soon after purchase when a plank let go. One was a gillnetter much like this boat.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Your'e lucky man BlackMagic ��
    "Little Bear" 1955 Fontana 18' - 1958 Atomic 4
    " Fela " 1985 Glen L15
    2016 kayak Mill Creek 13

  10. #10
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    A quick search of the Nauticapedia Canada site turns up 2 entries for Black Magic. One is closed, with no details at all and the other is a large fibreglass power yacht.


    A similar search on the Canadian Vessel Registration Query System turns up 6 vessels named Black Magic, Black Magic plus Black Magics I through V. None of the currently active registrations appear to be your boat. With the closed registrations, there is no information about the boats.

    This leads me to suspect that your boat is not currently registered or possibly even licensed Ė I donít see a license number in the photos. Given the size of the boat, assuming it has a motor greater than 10 HP and that it is used for pleasure, it has to be one or the other. Your boat may not be legal if it has neither.

    Thanks for getting back at me here. Iíve started to develop my own suspicions about this after a few fruitless searches. At this point what are my options for acquiring legitimate registry? Luckily Iíve not finalized any sale at this point.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Not gratuitous at all! Great advice, she is currently full with 700L of fuel. Would that be enough you think?

  12. #12
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    I had a pretty good look at the fasteners and you’re spot on, iron fastened. They’re barely existent at this point and there are some sprung planks. My thoughts were to show up with tools and fasteners and do some temporary refastening before moving her to the pull out spot.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    You've got a project on your hands. Is there cement in the bilges? If so I don't think you'll need more ballast on the (hopefully short) trip to the yard. Sprung planks will sink you before the stability will, if there really are sprung planks. I'd refer to the stern as a horseshoe stern, I haven't heard the term picket, but maybe it's regional.

    I'd wager that house is not original. How do the frames look?

    Do you plan to fish, or will you be converting to a pleasure boat?

  14. #14
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Not to pile on here but you mentioned that you are a "new wooden boat owner" and that you haven't actually completed the sale yet so I'm going to strongly suggest that you have the boat surveyed before you spend any money. Start with an in-water survey and depending on what comes back from that inspection decide whether you want to move her away from the dock at all.

    I'd also read these threads that might be relevant:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...my-new-project

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...gedeck-cruiser

    Telstar nearly sank while the new owner was having her towed for haulout. Pickle did sink and was abandoned by her new owner before she could make it to her haulout. Old wooden boats with fastener problems are a risk. There is no way to know whether the boat will float long enough to make it to a haulout. And if you do decide to buy her I would get the current owner to move her to the haulout location before you take ownership.

    Don't get me wrong. I love old fishing boats. I spent several years attempting to restore one myself with more or less success depending on how you look at it. (The full story is here, in far too much detail, if you are interested http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ot-Petrel-quot). I think they all deserve to be restored. But you should go into the project knowing what you are in for.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  15. #15
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    Default

    Is she is/was a registered vessel, her name and hailing port should be readily visible on the transom, and her registration number and net tonnage should be pretty apparent down below. In the USA, it's usually carved into a main beam, like a deck beam or other structural member.

    According to Transport Canada, vessels must be registered if it "is a commercial vessel with a gross tonnage of 15 or more and is powered by motors totalling 7.5 kW (10 horsepower) or more".

    The registration and and net tonnage must be clearly visible down below, in block letter at least 4 cm tall.

    "On a clearly visible interior structural part of the hull, mark:

    - “N.R.T.” before the net registered tonnage
    - “O.N.” before the official numbebr />
    If you used the Assigned Formal Tonnage method, only the O.N. needs to be marked since the net tonnage will not appear on your Certificate of Registry."

    Don't know what the Canadian rules are, but it should look something like this

    O.N. 123456 N.R.T. 12.345

    The official number and/or the vessel's name should let you look it up in Transport Canada's Vessel Registry.

    https://tc.canada.ca/en/marine-trans...h-query-system
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. ó P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  16. #16
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    It's hard to justify spending vast sums of money and effort on something with zero pedigree. But it depends what you want the boat for? If it's just a pastime to get you out of the house there's one approach, if you you intend her to carry you and your family to Haida Gwaii you have a different undertaking ahead. The current owner should be able to connect you to a previous owner, and so on. Any BC fishboat under about 42' overall will be under 15 gross tons (volume not weight) and may never have been registered though it certainly will have been licensed. Typically the ON # will be carved into a deck beam in the hold (may be foamed and fiberglassed over) or under the foredeck.

    Yes, the picket stern is a thing and it's seams should be caulked (Corked on this coast) with cotton. In general these old boats in rough condition are a liability with zero market value. Any purchase cost would be paid for a great engine in good running order, or other new equipment. Proper refastening of the entire hull is a big job requiring reefing every seam in the hull, replacing any bad planks, refastening with 3000 stainless screws, and then corking the entire hull and paying all the seams. More likely is serious damage from fresh water ingress midships in the hold area. Usually water has come in around the bulwarks and rotted frames, clamp, and covering boards. Usually this means there's nothing to refasten to in the middle of the boat, so you need to install sister frames. If there is foam and fiberglass in the hold that has to come out so air can get to the interior. Sometimes you can shove new sister frames down between the hull planking and the ceiling, so you have something to refasten to.

    It's a learning process, good luck.....
    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
    http://blog.tadroberts.ca/
    http://www.passagemakerlite.com

  17. #17
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Not to pile on here but you mentioned that you are a "new wooden boat owner" and that you haven't actually completed the sale yet so I'm going to strongly suggest that you have the boat surveyed before you spend any money. Start with an in-water survey and depending on what comes back from that inspection decide whether you want to move her away from the dock at all.

    I'd also read these threads that might be relevant:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...my-new-project

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...gedeck-cruiser

    Telstar nearly sank while the new owner was having her towed for haulout. Pickle did sink and was abandoned by her new owner before she could make it to her haulout. Old wooden boats with fastener problems are a risk. There is no way to know whether the boat will float long enough to make it to a haulout. And if you do decide to buy her I would get the current owner to move her to the haulout location before you take ownership.

    Don't get me wrong. I love old fishing boats. I spent several years attempting to restore one myself with more or less success depending on how you look at it. (The full story is here, in far too much detail, if you are interested http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ot-Petrel-quot). I think they all deserve to be restored. But you should go into the project knowing what you are in for.

    No sweat! Youíre absolutely right that Iím technically not aĒnew wooden boat owner, I suppose my excitement got the best of me. That being said sheís mine should I decide to take her.

    I appreciate the advice and links to similar stories. Iím definitely going to be returning with a ditty bag to further inspect frames and fasteners. Already Iím leaning away from straying too far from the dock. Iím curious if anyone has any experience or know how regarding completing footing repairs to get her more sound for a short move. Some of the planking could easily be refastened on the top sides but below the waterline is my concern especially in areas for accessible from inside the hull I.e. the spray foamed fish hold, and below fuel tanks and bilge stringers.

    thanks again for all the advice!

  18. #18
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Paying for a thorough survey is worth every penny
    Elect a clown expect a circus

  19. #19
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    It's hard to justify spending vast sums of money and effort on something with zero pedigree. But it depends what you want the boat for? If it's just a pastime to get you out of the house there's one approach, if you you intend her to carry you and your family to Haida Gwaii you have a different undertaking ahead. The current owner should be able to connect you to a previous owner, and so on. Any BC fishboat under about 42' overall will be under 15 gross tons (volume not weight) and may never have been registered though it certainly will have been licensed. Typically the ON # will be carved into a deck beam in the hold (may be foamed and fiberglassed over) or under the foredeck.

    Yes, the picket stern is a thing and it's seams should be caulked (Corked on this coast) with cotton. In general these old boats in rough condition are a liability with zero market value. Any purchase cost would be paid for a great engine in good running order, or other new equipment. Proper refastening of the entire hull is a big job requiring reefing every seam in the hull, replacing any bad planks, refastening with 3000 stainless screws, and then corking the entire hull and paying all the seams. More likely is serious damage from fresh water ingress midships in the hold area. Usually water has come in around the bulwarks and rotted frames, clamp, and covering boards. Usually this means there's nothing to refasten to in the middle of the boat, so you need to install sister frames. If there is foam and fiberglass in the hold that has to come out so air can get to the interior. Sometimes you can shove new sister frames down between the hull planking and the ceiling, so you have something to refasten to.

    It's a learning process, good luck.....
    BE7CBD81-D539-4025-AA92-DDB676851CCF.jpg
    that’s the only identification number I came across.

    thanks for your reply. I harbour no illusions as to the vast amount of work required to make these things right. As far as I could see from my initial inspection you’re spot on about a lack of stable frames to refasten to as well as areas of fresh water ingress. Im curious as to what you mean when you say pedigree? A vessel built by a rep table builder I assume?

    I’ll certainly inquire as to the previous owner(s). Ideally my goal for the boat coastal cruising but I’d love to have the potential to travel far and wide.

    I look forward to the learning process, thanks again for the advice!

  20. #20
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Third vote for getting a professional survey. Seriously.

    I hired a surveyor to look over a very different [smaller] wooden boat that I was considering and ended up walking away from it based on his report. Totally worth paying for a half day of his time. A good survey will also provide you with a priority list for maintenance and repair items, so you know what you're getting into, when to expect things, and how long it might take. That boat could end up being rather costly if it's worse off than it seems. Worse still, it could consume years of your time and piles of money that you weren't prepared to spend.

    So get the survey before you say yes!!

    Jeff

  21. #21
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Also:

    https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur...details/318671

    Apparently she was previously named "Sidetrack I"

    Not sure where you'd take your search from there.

    Jeff

  22. #22
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
    http://blog.tadroberts.ca/
    http://www.passagemakerlite.com

  23. #23
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Just regarding the question about making repairs prior to moving her. I don’t think that’s possible in any realistic way. I wouldn’t bother trying to do anything about planks above the waterline. And the ones that would be a problem aren’t going to be reachable. Which is why I say you should have the current owner move her to the yard. That way if she sinks the coasties will be going after him for the cost of cleaning up the mess, not you. (Yeah, that might sound harsh but it’s just reality. You do not want the hassle and cost of raising and then cutting up a boat you just bought).
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post

    The list of owners from that link ought to be enough to scare somebody up.

    Owner(s)

    In 1963-1966 she was owned by David K. Homer, Sooke BC.
    In 1967-1970 she was owned by Carl Lundberg, Vancouver BC.
    In 1975-1977 she was owned by Daniel H. Breckon, Coquitlam BC. In 1978 she was owned by Victor K. Weys, Sherwood Park AB.
    In 1979-1991 she was owned by David W. Ellis, Queen Charlotte City QCI BC.
    In 1992 she was owned by Kamil Enterprises Ltd., North Vancouver BC.
    In 1993 she was owned by Marin Jurcey, Vancouver BC.
    In 1994 she was owned by Henry J. Heggelund, Sooke BC.
    In 1995-2004 she was owned by Ronald J. Mallon, Victoria BC.
    In 2011-2019 she was owned by Roger N. Callum, Surrey BC.
    Ron Mallon seems to run Sidetrack Charters out of Victoria BC. (Sooke, really, 45m east of Victoria).

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/ron-mallon-29a15123/

    https://www.facebook.com/SIDETRACK.Charters/
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. ó P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  25. #25
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    Default Re: PNW trollers, general inquiries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    The list of owners from that link ought to be enough to scare somebody up.



    Ron Mallon seems to run Sidetrack Charters out of Victoria BC. (Sooke, really, 45m east of Victoria).

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/ron-mallon-29a15123/

    https://www.facebook.com/SIDETRACK.Charters/
    this is amazing! Thank you kindly!

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