Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst ... 234 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 105 of 208

Thread: History is written by the victors

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    14,962

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    本世纪的历史将这样书写
    Or they will adopt an easier writing system.

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    26,841

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Or they will adopt an easier writing system.
    Forty years ago, in the first enthusiastic response to opening up, this was talked about. Not now. But in China, unlike Japan, the USA or the UK, the street signage is all bilingual, English /Chinese.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    38,553

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Like I said, shows you didn't read it. Just like Hugh didn't read the post he responded to with a reptilian brain fart.
    You clearly never read any of the articles I post, either, [REDACTED to protect someone's feelings].
    Rattling the teacups.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    38,553

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Forty years ago, in the first enthusiastic response to opening up, this was talked about. Not now. But in China, unlike Japan, the USA or the UK, the street signage is all bilingual, English /Chinese.
    Completely unrelated, except by direct reference, here's a street sign from Hancock, Michigan:



    I'd be surprised if anyone there still speaks more than a smattering of Finnish, but the legacy lives on.
    Last edited by oznabrag; 06-14-2021 at 11:30 AM.
    Rattling the teacups.

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    26,841

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Completely unrelated, except by direct reference, here's a street sign from Hancock, Michigan:



    I'd be surprised if anyone there still speaks more than a smattering of Finnish, but the legacy lives on.
    Thats impressive!
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    27,365

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    All kinds of ugly human behavior has a biological basis: racism, tribalism, aggression, xenophobia, oppression of women, and yes, homophobia. The challenge of our time is to collectively grow out of it.

    Here is some reading for you. Hint: read it all the way through before denouncing the author as homophobic, to avoid looking foolish.

    How can Gallup claim the attitudes in his sample are not cultural, but innate, when his subjects are all from the same culture? They are WEIRD.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/466029a
    Experimental findings from several disciplines indicate considerable variation among human populations in diverse domains, such as visual perception, analytic reasoning, fairness, cooperation, memory and the heritability of IQ1,2. This is in line with what anthropologists have long suggested: that people from Western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic (WEIRD) societies — and particularly American undergraduates — are some of the most psychologically unusual people on Earth1.

    So the fact that the vast majority of studies use WEIRD participants presents a challenge to the understanding of human psychology and behaviour. A 2008 survey of the top psychology journals found that 96% of subjects were from Western industrialized countries — which house just 12% of the world's population3. Strange, then, that research articles routinely assume that their results are broadly representative, rarely adding even a cautionary footnote on how far their findings can be generalized.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    14,962

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    You all are weird too, so it still applies.

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    27,365

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    You all are weird too, so it still applies.
    This makes no sense. If it only applies to WEIRD people, then it's a matter of culture. Your claim has been that the attitude is the result of evolution, in which case it should be innate in all humans regardless of culture.

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    16,764

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    This makes no sense. If it only applies to WEIRD people, then it's a matter of culture. Your claim has been that the attitude is the result of evolution, in which case it should be innate in all humans regardless of culture.
    and any individual or group that didn't demonstrate homophobia would have to be missing some gene or hard-wired bit of psychological evolution. so that would make them what, weird?

    given that there exist many individuals and have been numerous human societies without apparent "instinctive" anti-gay or gender bigotry, what are we to conclude, in the absence of compelling evidence of the biological basis for such bigotries?

    btw, a blog post doesn't count as compelling evidence.

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    59,244

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    But it doesn't only apply to westerners. All of the things George. mentioned are found in most human cultures to a greater or lesser degree. It's true that most of the research has been done with folks like the researchers, and this is a problem; the analogy to looking for your lost keys under the streetlight because it's too dark everywhere else. But all we can get from that is 'not yet statistically proven'. The 'blank slate' is, not to lean on it too hard, mostly bullsh!t. This is not to claim that culture has no effect; it obviously has a very strong one. It's how we're going to overcome some of our nastier evolved tendencies, and at least partially already have.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  11. #81
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    14,962

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    This makes no sense. If it only applies to WEIRD people, then it's a matter of culture. Your claim has been that the attitude is the result of evolution, in which case it should be innate in all humans regardless of culture.
    It was a pun...

    BTW, the attitude that is a result of evolution is not bigotry. Bigotry is what happens when the innate reflexes are reinforced and fed with cultural garbage.

    For example, most small boys go through an age where they dislike the company of girls. Not all of them become chauvinists pigs.

  12. #82
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    27,365

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    But it doesn't only apply to westerners. All of the things George. mentioned are found in most human cultures to a greater or lesser degree. It's true that most of the research has been done with folks like the researchers, and this is a problem; the analogy to looking for your lost keys under the streetlight because it's too dark everywhere else. But all we can get from that is 'not yet statistically proven'. The 'blank slate' is, not to lean on it too hard, mostly bullsh!t. This is not to claim that culture has no effect; it obviously has a very strong one. It's how we're going to overcome some of our nastier evolved tendencies, and at least partially already have.
    The article George cited claimed that people instinctively dislike homosexuals because they believe sexual behavior is learned, so children are in danger of being trained to be homosexual if they have contact with homosexuals. In short, it claims sexuality is a blank slate, while fear or hatred of homosexuals is written in our genes.

    Does this make sense? It seems like every culture has homosexuals, but only some condemn them. This would be consistent with sexuality being innate and attitudes toward homosexuality being learned. If that's the case, the question evolutionary biology needs to solve is why all human societies have homosexuals.

  13. #83
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    59,244

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    The way you put it, it's circular. But in how many human cultures is there not some degree of condemnation of homosexuality? Some, but few.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 06-14-2021 at 03:12 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  14. #84
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    16,764

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post

    For example, most small boys go through an age where they dislike the company of girls. Not all of them become chauvinists pigs.
    you're thinking of an old sitcom meme, leave it to beaver or something. maybe dennis the menace?

    i can't remember ever disliking girls. i never noticed it in my brothers or my son. we must be a bunch of weirdos.

  15. #85
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    27,365

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The way you put it, it's circular. But in how many human cultures is there not some degree of condemnation of homosexuality? Some, but few.
    Interesting paper on that here: http://www2.psych.utoronto.ca/users/...e(2015_Ch).pdf

    The ascendance of Western culture has resulted in the spread of a culture of homophobia.

  16. #86
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    53,803

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The way you put it, it's circular. But in how many human cultures is there not some degree of condemnation of homosexuality? Some, but few.
    Even a few falsifies Gallups claims.
    They certainly existed in history and may well do so now.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 06-14-2021 at 05:48 PM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  17. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    downward bound
    Posts
    8,312

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The way you put it, it's circular. But in how many human cultures is there not some degree of condemnation of homosexuality? Some, but few.
    Condemnation for whom and what is the society defining as homosexuality.

  18. #88
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    59,244

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Even a few falsifies Gallup's claims.
    Not at all. If we can't use learning and culture to counteract hardwiring, then we're totally screwed.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  19. #89
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    16,764

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Not at all. If we can't use learning and culture to counteract hardwiring, then we're totally screwed.
    so are learning and culture outside of "evolutionary psychology"? this is going to be tricky.

    i would like to hear how you know which widely shared but not universal cultural traits are based in evolution and which arise from learning and...culture.

    well, mostly for the entertainment. i think you guys have been talking out your lower orifices since the gay hatred thread. don't know why. but here we are.

  20. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    74,615

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    The article George cited claimed that people instinctively dislike homosexuals because they believe sexual behavior is learned, so children are in danger of being trained to be homosexual if they have contact with homosexuals. In short, it claims sexuality is a blank slate, while fear or hatred of homosexuals is written in our genes.

    Does this make sense? It seems like every culture has homosexuals, but only some condemn them. This would be consistent with sexuality being innate and attitudes toward homosexuality being learned. If that's the case, the question evolutionary biology needs to solve is why all human societies have homosexuals.
    Does it makes sense? Not in the slightest.


    I have heard too many friends say the same thing. And read too many personal accounts saying the same thing.

    People realize fairly early on who they find attractive. The girl I dated in 5th grade, and who I'm still friends with, for instance. She had 3 older sisters, and found herself at an early age getting 'crushes' on her sister's female friends. And her experience was also typical in that she dated men for years... because that's what girls did. And in an attempt to be 'normal'. It took some self-examination to eventually come to the conclusion that however difficult a life 'out' would be... it would not be as profoundly difficult as living in discord with her true self.
    Last edited by David G; 06-14-2021 at 10:44 PM.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  21. #91
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    66,587

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    The source of the homophobic atitudes in the religions of the book is likely the same denial of themselves that makes politicians, priests and pastors rant against it…………….. only to be found out to be up to their own necks clandestinely.
    The more they rail against others, the more they are likely to be holding the door of their closet shut.

  22. #92
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    14,962

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Just to clarify once again: It is not homophobia or bigotry that is innate. What is innate is an aversion for intimate homosexual contact by heterosexuals. This is natural - it's nature's way of making sure heterosexual primates mate with the opposite sex.

    This does not necessarily have to translate into homophobia. All it means is that the heterosexual primate is repelled by the idea of engaging in same-sex intimacy himself (or herself). That is not homophobia, although it can be the basis for developing homophobia.

    In the same vein, the vast majority of heterosexual males, whether they are single or not, feel instinctively attracted to passing young females, especially if their, ahem, "fertility" is on display. That does not mean they all cheat on their partners, but many do.

  23. #93
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Location
    Norwich, Norfolk, UK
    Posts
    737

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Forty years ago, in the first enthusiastic response to opening up, this was talked about. Not now. But in China, unlike Japan, the USA or the UK, the street signage is all bilingual, English /Chinese.
    Depends where you live, in Wales many signs are Welsh / English. Some parts of Scotland they are Gaidhlig / English..
    Just an amateur bodging away..

  24. #94
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    26,841

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Just to clarify once again: It is not homophobia or bigotry that is innate. What is innate is an aversion for intimate homosexual contact by heterosexuals. This is natural - it's nature's way of making sure heterosexual primates mate with the opposite sex.

    This does not necessarily have to translate into homophobia. All it means is that the heterosexual primate is repelled by the idea of engaging in same-sex intimacy himself (or herself). That is not homophobia, although it can be the basis for developing homophobia.

    In the same vein, the vast majority of heterosexual males, whether they are single or not, feel instinctively attracted to passing young females, especially if their, ahem, "fertility" is on display. That does not mean they all cheat on their partners, but many do.
    To which one might add that homosexual males and females are really rather good at judging which other individuals of their own sex are likely to respond to a sexual advance. The consequences of a “mistake” can be serious for them, since heterosexuals can react violently to an advance. Is this learned or innate?

  25. #95
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    26,841

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by The Q View Post
    Depends where you live, in Wales many signs are Welsh / English. Some parts of Scotland they are Gaidhlig / English..
    Yes, but those signs are there to cater to local “language nationalism”, whereas in China there are no native speakers of English; the signage is purely for visitors.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  26. #96
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    16,764

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Just to clarify once again: It is not homophobia or bigotry that is innate. What is innate is an aversion for intimate homosexual contact by heterosexuals. This is natural - it's nature's way of making sure heterosexual primates mate with the opposite sex.

    This does not necessarily have to translate into homophobia. All it means is that the heterosexual primate is repelled by the idea of engaging in same-sex intimacy himself (or herself). That is not homophobia, although it can be the basis for developing homophobia.

    In the same vein, the vast majority of heterosexual males, whether they are single or not, feel instinctively attracted to passing young females, especially if their, ahem, "fertility" is on display. That does not mean they all cheat on their partners, but many do.
    strange then that to support your position you link a blog titled "natural homophobes?" lol.

    i'm glad though, that now you admit that the hatred of gays and transsexuals has nothing to do with instinct, that it's not genetic or "hard-wired". it is learned. that is all anybody has argued with you, and you have conceded, not by admitting fault, but simply typing out a different position. fin.

  27. #97
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    38,553

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post



    I hope you don't mind, Lee.
    Rattling the teacups.

  28. #98
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    14,962

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    i'm glad though, that now you admit that the hatred of gays and transsexuals has nothing to do with instinct, that it's not genetic or "hard-wired". it is learned. that is all anybody has argued with you, and you have conceded, not by admitting fault, but simply typing out a different position. fin.
    You keep mischaracterising what I said to begin with. I pointed out that there is an innate disgust reaction to the thought of homosexual intimacy among heterosexuals, and that it serves to ensure that heterosexual primates mate only with the opposite sex.

    That see
    ms to have triggered a hate response all right - from you, towards me. Shoot the messenger and all that.


  29. #99
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    16,764

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post


    I hope you don't mind, Lee.
    ha! they won't really yield though, some people are too smart to fail!

    i do like how we went from "evolutionary psychology is basic science" to complete gutting the notion within a half dozen posts.

  30. #100
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    16,764

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    You keep mischaracterising what I said to begin with. I pointed out that there is an innate disgust reaction to the thought of homosexual intimacy among heterosexuals, and that it serves to ensure that heterosexual primates mate only with the opposite sex.

    That see
    ms to have triggered a hate response all right - from you, towards me. Shoot the messenger and all that.

    you know what george, even in this latest post, you are pretending to know something you don't. "and that serves to ensure that heterosexual primates mate only with the opposite sex". that is completely unfounded, not remotely scientific. every other animal species in the world manages to procreate without some special state of mind. there is no reason to think that aversion is anything more than a matter of which pheremones are in action.

    you continue to ascribe scientific foundings for the things you happen to think. that's not science george, closer maybe to "intelligent design" arguments, if anything.

  31. #101
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    14,962

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    ... there is no reason to think that aversion is anything more than a matter of which pheremones are in action.
    OK, we agree!

    Now think about it: where do pheromones come from? Innate or cultural?

    every other animal species in the world manages to procreate without some special state of mind
    I can assure you that sexual reproduction always involves a special state of mind.

  32. #102
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    16,764

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    OK, we agree!

    Now think about it: where do pheromones come from? Innate or cultural?



    I can assure you that sexual reproduction always involves a special state of mind.
    i am trying to find any trace of yesterday's argument in today's position. yesterday, evolutionary psychology was synonymous with basic science, today you "agree" that sexual attraction and aversion is managed without reference to psychology at all.

    the question of pheromones being "innate or cultural" i take to be a desperate joke of a dying man.

  33. #103
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    59,244

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Just to clarify once again: It is not homophobia or bigotry that is innate. What is innate is an aversion for intimate homosexual contact by heterosexuals. This is natural - it's nature's way of making sure heterosexual primates mate with the opposite sex.

    This does not necessarily have to translate into homophobia. All it means is that the heterosexual primate is repelled by the idea of engaging in same-sex intimacy himself (or herself). That is not homophobia, although it can be the basis for developing homophobia.

    In the same vein, the vast majority of heterosexual males, whether they are single or not, feel instinctively attracted to passing young females, especially if their, ahem, "fertility" is on display. That does not mean they all cheat on their partners, but many do.
    Quite reasonable, and quite different from the straw men that people have been so industriously constructing and setting alight. An aversion to gay sex is likely innate. The specific behavior in reaction to it can range from 'Nah, not really my thing' to murderous violence due to many factors, most of them learned. More of the former, less of the latter is our task.

    Note that 'nature's way of making sure heterosexual primates mate with the opposite sex' is speculation insofar as it describes a 'purpose'. It clearly has that effect, but you have to be careful that way with evolutionary explanations.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 06-15-2021 at 09:06 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  34. #104
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    16,764

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Quite reasonable, and quite different from the straw men that people have been so industriously constructing and setting alight. An aversion to gay sex is likely innate. The specific behavior in reaction to it can range from 'Nah, not really my thing' to murderous violence due to many factors, most of them learned. More of the former, less of the latter is our task.

    Note that 'nature's way of making sure heterosexual primates mate with the opposite sex' is speculation insofar as it describes a 'purpose'. It clearly has that effect, but you have to be careful that way with evolutionary explanations.
    right, the fault is with others failing to understand. you've been right all along.

    i asked for the scientific proof of the "evolutionary explanations" that once upon a time you and george were so certain of, and which you now note is "speculation".

    no kidding.

    fondly i recall how i called you guys "social darwinists". and you spit and spluttered. weeks later, george finally provides, as evidence of whatever-it-is he thinks, a sophomore's blog post. interesting to compare that "article" with the first line of the wiki entry for "social darwinism":

    Social Darwinism refers to various theories that emerged in Western Europe and North America in the 1870s that applied biological concepts of natural selection and survival of the fittest to sociology, economics and politics.
    which is the exact thing george does in his latest mealy mouthed repositioning.

    any comment on that blog post keith?

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    59,244

    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Another straw man. You know perfectly well (or should) that 'Social Darwinism' went far, far beyond that one sentence. Acknowledging that human beings are evolved primates and not 'blank slates' is not even nearly the same thing as Social Darwinism.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •