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Thread: History is written by the victors

  1. #176
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    History need not be written if the imaging is clear.

    winged-victory-of-samothrace-1.jpg
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  2. #177
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    And I would say that while an aversion to gay sex is likely innate, one's attitude towards people of different orientations is heavily influenced by culture. Neither of us has the data to demonstrate it conclusively.

    My point was that pointing out that rape might very well be a hard-wired behavior is NOT justifying or defending it. Likewise, pointing out that an aversion to gay sex might be innate is NOT defending mistreatment of gay folks. Merely because it's 'natural' doesn't mean it's good. Nature can be cruel, brutal, and utterly indifferent to suffering, and some innate behaviors should be counteracted by learning and culture to the best of our ability.
    to be clear, by "likely" you now admit that the notion is speculative. maybe even highly so, considering the paucity of evidence?

    and someone holding an opposing notion on the particular subject is not intimating that humans are "blank slates". he's not "silly", or talking "nonsense". he has at least as much evidence as you do.

    as for the rest, i maintain that there is good reason not to lend credence to the highly speculative idea that we are predisposed to l.g.t. hatred because of natural selection. it is not a harmless claim.

    and talking in mixed company about how much gay sex grosses you out is, at very least, boorish. ymmv.

  3. #178
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    You mean victors' history? I agree, but you are the one who keeps hijacking the thread...
    the first mention of science on this thread was yours. if i prompted a retreading of the previous thread, you have been an avid participant. to lay "hijacking" on me is as dishonest as every other post you have made on the subject.

  4. #179
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well, successful at getting women pregnant perhaps, but it take a LOT more than that to raise a child to reproductive age. Human beings have a very, very long and delicate childhood, and successfully raising kids ain't easy. It was a very rare person in previous ages who saw all their kids live to grow up. Having a father who hangs around and helps is extremely useful. In fact, one could make a good argument that the evidence shows very clearly that rape isn't really the most effective reproductive strategy for human males. Most of us are not the children of rapists. Q.E.D.

    But you've demonstrated my point. You are not justifying rape or defending rapists by pointing out that evolution may have provided human males (or some of them, anyway) with a hard-wired tendency to want to rape women. I am not justifying or defending mistreatment of gay folks by pointing out that that gay sex gives straight people the heebie-jeebies, and this may very well be hard-wired.

    Quite true. What would that proof look like? It is, as I've said, an educated guess, and I could be wrong.
    Some of them.

    Precisely.
    Rattling the teacups.

  5. #180
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Sigh...

    I don't react to homosexuality with disgust. I am a very liberal educated adult, and have had gay friends all my life. I even had a gay roommate once. But this isn't about me. This is about society, and why your country and mine are experiencing a backlash to LGBT rights - much worse in my country than yours.

    Since you want to make it personal, let me ask you this: what would be your reaction if another man unwittingly tried to have sex with you? Say he crawled into your bunk in the dark during a big sleepover. Would it be the same as if it was a woman you don't care for? Don't answer if you are bisexual.
    So, you are living proof that feeling disgust at homosexuals is not innate.

    I have had gay men come on to me, including one roommate. I informed them that I wasn't interested. Even the one that woke me in the middle of the night got the message pretty quickly. It ain't rocket surgery, you just have to be honest with people.

  6. #181
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Yes, but I think victors' history is different in that it is deliberately shaped to fit a patriotic narrative.
    Of course, who could think otherwise?

  7. #182
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    So, you are living proof that feeling disgust at homosexuals is not innate.
    'Innate' does not necessarily mean 'present in 100% of the population', nor does it mean 'inevitable, unable to be altered by learning and culture'.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  8. #183
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    'Innate' does not necessarily mean 'present in 100% of the population', nor does it mean 'inevitable, unable to be altered by learning and culture'.
    The proponent of Georges hypothesis has it both ways.
    Distaste is cultural, learned ath the mothers knee.
    The mothers teaching has a genetic base, and so is innate in the parents.
    But first, let’s have a look at how Gallup went about testing his hypothesis that homophobia stems from unconscious, gene-driven, parental concerns.
    I am arguing that the genetic bit does not stand scrutiny.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  9. #184
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The proponent of Georges hypothesis has it both ways.
    Distaste is cultural, learned ath the mothers knee.
    The mothers teaching has a genetic base, and so is innate in the parents.


    I am arguing that the genetic bit does not stand scrutiny.
    the argument does appear a bit malleable, eh?

    anyway, it's not neccessarily "genetic". it's "evolutionary psychology", which i guess would be located in consciousness? not genetically coded, but somehow arising in the psyche nonetheless? i dunno. george has told us evolutionary psychology is synonymous with basic science. hasn't been any reference to it since. almost like we'd like to forget about it.

    some people are saying that evolutionary psychology is a bunch of hooey.

  10. #185
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    the argument does appear a bit malleable, eh?

    anyway, it's not neccessarily "genetic". it's "evolutionary psychology", which i guess would be located in consciousness? not genetically coded, but somehow arising in the psyche nonetheless? i dunno. george has told us evolutionary psychology is synonymous with basic science. hasn't been any reference to it since. almost like we'd like to forget about it.

    some people are saying that evolutionary psychology is a bunch of hooey.
    OK as far as it goes. A lot of things in that list, but not all, are shared by other primates and pack animals so are likely to be evolved genetically.
    Evolutionary psychology

    Evolutionary psychology is a theoretical approach to psychology that attempts to explain useful mental and psychological traits—such as memory, perception, or language—as adaptations, i.e., as the functional products of natural selection.
    The purpose of this approach is to bring the functional way of thinking about biological mechanisms such as the immune system into the field of psychology, and to approach psychological mechanisms in a similar way.
    In short, evolutionary psychology is focused on how evolution has shaped the mind and behavior.
    Though applicable to any organism with a nervous system, most research in evolutionary psychology focuses on humans.
    Evolutionary Psychology proposes that the human brain comprises many functional mechanisms, called psychological adaptations or evolved cognitive mechanisms designed by the process of natural selection.
    Examples include language acquisition modules, incest avoidance mechanisms, cheater detection mechanisms, intelligence and sex-specific mating preferences, foraging mechanisms, alliance-tracking mechanisms, agent detection mechanisms, and so on.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/e...psychology.htm
    But George's hypothesis deals with a second order effect. Parents genetically predisposed to indoctrinate their offspring a certain way. Which is harder to test, except by showing where it fails.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  11. #186
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Almost every complicated behavior that humans have is influenced both by genetics and learning/culture. They can work in the same direction, or counter each other. Sorting out which is which is not simple; maybe even impossible.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  12. #187
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Almost every complicated behavior that humans have is influenced both by genetics and learning/culture. They can work in the same direction, or counter each other. Sorting out which is which is not simple; maybe even impossible.
    This is where Occam and the KISS principle are useful.
    Before Judeo-Christianity puts its oar in there were lots of cultures lacking the distaste, on the contrary there was clear enthusiasm.

    Soi, what is the simplest conclusion that we can draw from that factoid?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #188
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Before Judeo-Christianity puts its oar in there were lots of cultures lacking the distaste, on the contrary there was clear enthusiasm.
    I don't think so. Of the cultures we know of, most have distaste to one degree or another. There are some that are tolerant, more hateful, few murderously so, a very few enthusiastic. So what is the simplest conclusion that we can draw from that factoid?

    Not the MEMs haven't had a huge influence; they definitely have. You want serious bloodthirsty intolerance these days, a Wahabi Muslim's your man.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  14. #189
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I don't think so. Of the cultures we know of, most have distaste to one degree or another. There are some that are tolerant, more hateful, few murderously so, a very few enthusiastic. So what is the simplest conclusion that we can draw from that factoid?

    Not the MEMs haven't had a huge influence; they definitely have. You want serious bloodthirsty intolerance these days, a Wahabi Muslim's your man.
    That you are selecting a different data set to the one that I am aware of.
    I at least have named mine. I can add various unnamed tribes who maintained their isolation until after the Missionary zeal died out, tucked away in remote jungles.

    Do you know why your data set show aversion? Can you prove that it is not cultural?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #190
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Do you know why your data set show aversion? Can you prove that it is not cultural?
    Of course not, nor can you prove it's not hard-wired to some extent. How would either of us do that? None of us can 'prove' anything here.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  16. #191
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Of course not, nor can you prove it's not hard-wired to some extent. How would either of us do that? None of us can 'prove' anything here.
    Well there is the saying "Exception proves the rule" Prove as in tests. So I suggest that my "Exception" tests the rule to destruction.

    It is much harder to argue around something like an entire culture having so much fun with same sex sex that they decorated their pottery with it, than to explain it away as an aberration circumventing a genetic imperative. Aberrations going against genetics tend to be a minority feature in a society, not a universal feature.
    Do you not think that this
    But first, let’s have a look at how Gallup went about testing his hypothesis that homophobia stems from unconscious, gene-driven, parental concerns.
    is stretching a bit far?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #192
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    You all are still thread-drifting in circles down here because this bit of hard data has you running scared:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ome-minds-here

  18. #193
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    You all are still thread-drifting in circles down here because this bit of hard data has you running scared:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ome-minds-here
    Well You gained no traction there, so you switched to cannibalism.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #194
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Eat me.

  20. #195
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Eat me.
    Nah, You are too old and tough.
    Dean Swift nailed it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #196
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    the argument does appear a bit malleable, eh?

    anyway, it's not neccessarily "genetic". it's "evolutionary psychology", which i guess would be located in consciousness? not genetically coded, but somehow arising in the psyche nonetheless? i dunno. george has told us evolutionary psychology is synonymous with basic science. hasn't been any reference to it since. almost like we'd like to forget about it.

    some people are saying that evolutionary psychology is a bunch of hooey.
    Every time one of George's tests fails, he moves on to a new one. Is that the scientific method? Seems more Jesuitical to me.

  22. #197
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    None of you wokies have answered my question on #141, and none of you have a pertinent comment about the map on the other thread that shows homophobia occurs everywhere.

    QED.

  23. #198
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Would it be the same as if it was a woman you don't care for? Don't answer if you are bisexual.
    Yes it would. How is that relevant to my parents genetics and how I was indoctrinated? Silly question.
    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    None of you wokies have answered my question on #141, and none of you have a pertinent comment about the map on the other thread that shows homophobia occurs everywhere.

    QED.
    The map shows no such thing.
    Yes there are pertinent comment on the map. It is just that you don't like them.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #199
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post


    The map shows no such thing.
    The map shows institutionalised homophobia across every continent and culture. It also shows that the Western countries have the least homophobia.

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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    The map shows institutionalised homophobia across every continent and culture. It also shows that the Western countries have the least homophobia.
    Actually it says nothing about closet homophobes. It says a lot about societies attitudes to gays.
    From the Wiki that you copied the map
    Notably, as of January 2021, 29 countries recognized same-sex marriage. By contrast, not counting non-state actors and extrajudicial killings, only one country is believed to impose the death penalty on consensual same-sex sexual acts: Iran. The death penalty is officially law but generally not practiced in Afghanistan, Brunei, Mauritania, Nigeria (in the northern third of the country), Saudi Arabia, Somalia (in the autonomous state of Jubaland) and the United Arab Emirates. Sudan rescinded its unenforced death penalty for anal sex (hetero- or homosexual) in 2020. Fifteen countries have stoning on the books as a penalty for adultery, which would include gay sex, but this is only enforced by the legal authorities in Iran.[1][2]
    So no, it does not show institutionalised homophobia across every . . . . Far from it.

    You need to find another dead horse to flog.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  26. #201
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    None of you wokies have answered my question on #141, and none of you have a pertinent comment about the map on the other thread that shows homophobia occurs everywhere.

    QED.
    picturing the face-to-face conversation in which george calls john and nick "wokies" and demands to know how they feel about gay sex as a point of argument.

    the intellectual equivalent of farting at the dinner table.

  27. #202
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    picturing the face-to-face conversation in which george calls john and nick "wokies" and demands to know how they feel about gay sex as a point of argument.

    the intellectual equivalent of farting at the dinner table.
    The intellectual equivalent of poking a bear with a toothpick.

    Oh, wait . . . you meant John W, not John T.

    Rattling the teacups.

  28. #203
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    None of you wokies have answered my question on #141

    QED.
    See post 180.

  29. #204
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    You didn't answer my question in 180. You wrote:

    I have had gay men come on to me, including one roommate. I informed them that I wasn't interested. Even the one that woke me in the middle of the night got the message pretty quickly.
    I didn't ask how you responded. I asked how it made you feel. And I am not sure what you mean by "came on", but my question was about someone initiating intimate contact with you. Would it feel the same whether it was a man or a woman?



  30. #205
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    You didn't answer my question in 180. You wrote:



    I didn't ask how you responded. I asked how it made you feel. And I am not sure what you mean by "came on", but my question was about someone initiating intimate contact with you. Would it feel the same whether it was a man or a woman?


    Now you've changed the question. No, I wouldn't feel the same whether it was a man or a woman. Some, but not all, women would be welcome in my bed.

    I did not feel disgust. I also did not feel attraction. I will not go into further detail, although I must say, you seem to have a prurient interest in my private life.

    I'm not arguing that humans are a blank slate when it comes to sexuality. If that were the case, wouldn't it all be about friction and not about the sex of your partner? The fact that I am not attracted to same-sex partners while some of my friends are makes me think that there must be a biological element to sexual attraction.

    George Will once wrote that he felt disgust when he saw mixed-race couples together. I do not. This makes me think that the disgust Will felt was learned rather than an innate biological part of being human. I apply the same logic to homosexual activity, and come to a similar conclusion.

  31. #206
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Now you've changed the question.
    Did I?

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post

    Since you want to make it personal, let me ask you this: what would be your reaction if another man unwittingly tried to have sex with you? Say he crawled into your bunk in the dark during a big sleepover. Would it be the same as if it was a woman you don't care for? Don't answer if you are bisexual.

  32. #207
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Did I?
    Yes, you did.

    Would it feel the same whether it was a man or a woman?
    Could you at least read your own posts?

  33. #208
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    Default Re: History is written by the victors

    OK, we miscommunicated. You understood reaction as physical, while I meant it as emotional. It's clear now, right?

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