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Thread: Critical race theory

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    Default Critical race theory

    Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp is pushing back against those people who feel Critical Race Theory should be taught in Georgia’s schools.

    Kemp sent to members of the Georgia State Board of Education on Thursday saying this type of curriculum has no place Georgia’s schools.

    “I have heard from parents, students, administrators and educators across our state who are extremely concerned about teaching of Critical Race Theory in Georgia. Like me, they are alarmed this divisive and anti-American curriculum is gaining favor in Washington, D.C. and in some states across the country,” Kemp wrote.

    The local school board was quick in joining him. He also doesn't want the 1619 Project taught.

    crt.jpg

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    For those who are not au courant with the term, here's what it is about. Personally, I think they have the story substantially right. As far as cirriculum goes... the devil's in the details. As far as Georgia goes... I think they object to an accurate analysis, because it's painful and because it's inconvenient --

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-race-theory
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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    having read that, David, I can see why so many people are afraid of CRT. It would upset their complete view of the world they have been taught since a young age. Even those who were raised liberally and lived their whole lives thusly suffer from the small things that add up to systemic racism. To bring it home to myself, The town just north of me, the one my backyard actually borders on, is predominately Black and Hispanic. At once time it was a very rough town and there are a few pockets here and there that still are (mostly around the Apartments that cater to the far less than well to do). My mother, as liberal as she is, won't even drive through that town and even wants me to go around it when driving with me. It is not that she is afraid of other peoples and races, she is the one that taught me that we are all the same, but she fears the "criminal element" in that town. With her closing in on 75, I do not make an issue of it
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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    In the late sixties and early seventies Critical Legal Studies (CLS as mentioned in the Britannica article) were a much discussed controversial topic at the law school associated with my college. It made sense to me then and it's been a surprise that it's taken more than fifty years to make it into general education.
    Last edited by rbgarr; 05-22-2021 at 05:37 PM.
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    For those who are not au courant with the term, here's what it is about. Personally, I think they have the story substantially right. As far as cirriculum goes... the devil's in the details. As far as Georgia goes... I think they object to an accurate analysis, because it's painful and because it's inconvenient --

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-race-theory
    Here's the meat of it:

    These “basic tenets” of CRT, according to the authors, include the following claims: (1) Race is socially constructed, not biologically natural. (2) Racism in the United States is normal, not aberrational: it is the common, ordinary experience of most people of colour. (3) Owing to what critical race theorists call “interest convergence” or “material determinism,” legal advances (or setbacks) for people of colour tend to serve the interests of dominant white groups. Thus, the racial hierarchy that characterizes American society may be unaffected or even reinforced by ostensible improvements in the legal status of oppressed or exploited people. (4) Members of minority groups periodically undergo “differential racialization,” or the attribution to them of varying sets of negative stereotypes, again depending on the needs or interests of whites. (5) According to the thesis of “intersectionality” or “antiessentialism,” no individual can be adequately identified by membership in a single group. An African American person, for example, may also identify as a woman, a lesbian, a feminist, a Christian, and so on. Finally, (6) the “voice of colour” thesis holds that people of colour are uniquely qualified to speak on behalf of other members of their group (or groups) regarding the forms and effects of racism. This consensus has led to the growth of the “legal story telling” movement, which argues that the self-expressed views of victims of racism and other forms of oppression provide essential insight into the nature of the legal system.

    First, I would not agree with the first tenet due to the fact that I don't see this as binary, but infinitely variable.

    Nature AND Nurture play a part in this.

    To the second tenet I agree completely that racism in the United States is normal, not aberrational, but where the thing goes sideways is declaring that racism is the common, ordinary experience of most people of color.

    This view is so one-sided as to obscure understanding completely, because racism is the common, ordinary experience of most White people, too.

    The core of the problem is that most White people are not AWARE that they are experiencing Racism.

    The rest of the Tenets are spot on, at first blush.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    To the second tenet I agree completely that racism in the United States is normal, not aberrational, but where the thing goes sideways is declaring that racism is the common, ordinary experience of most people of color.

    This view is so one-sided as to obscure understanding completely, because racism is the common, ordinary experience of most White people, too.

    The core of the problem is that most White people are not AWARE that they are experiencing Racism.

    The rest of the Tenets are spot on, at first blush.
    I suspect that the lack of awareness of racism is the point the written description was making, NOT that white people are not involved in racism--but that they are not AWARE.

    In other words, the self-reported experience of most people of color is racism, while the self-reported experience of most white people is a lack of racism.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    ...racism is the common, ordinary experience of most White people, too.

    The core of the problem is that most White people are not AWARE that they are experiencing Racism.
    Lots of white trash around your way, perhaps?

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I suspect that the lack of awareness of racism is the point the written description was making, NOT that white people are not involved in racism--but that they are not AWARE.

    In other words, the self-reported experience of most people of color is racism, while the self-reported experience of most white people is a lack of racism.

    Tom
    Yes, but as presented the victims are identified while the entire class of victors is ignored, and their responsibility along with it.

    These people are making the same mistake all over again, and they'll cry in their Ramen and drink too much cheap beer and get up in the morning and do it all over again.

    This is why Democrats/Liberals Suck.

    It is completely idiotic to present this as one-sided.

    I would guess that most people are pretty honest, and the White people are NOT reporting a lack of racism, they are simply unaware that what they are reporting IS racism.

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Lots of white trash around your way, perhaps?
    Only when you are in town.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    For those who are not au courant . . .
    you go david
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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    (3) Owing to what critical race theorists call “interest convergence” or “material determinism,” legal advances (or setbacks) for people of colour tend to serve the interests of dominant white groups. Thus, the racial hierarchy that characterizes American society may be unaffected or even reinforced by ostensible improvements in the legal status of oppressed or exploited people.
    As little patience as I have with Georgia Republicans, this sentence is one of the biggest piles of steaming maggot-infested horsesh!t I've seen for quite a while, although there may be a little truth mixed in somewhere. Yeah, right, the abolition of slavery and the entire civil rights movement did no good at all, only 'served the interests of dominant white groups'.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    As little patience as I have with Georgia Republicans, this sentence is one of the biggest piles of steaming maggot-infested horsesh!t I've seen for quite a while, although there may be a little truth mixed in somewhere. Yeah, right, the abolition of slavery and the entire civil rights movement did no good at all, only 'served the interests of dominant white groups'.
    Settle down, Keith, if you would please sir.

    I don't think anyone suggested that there have been no advances, just that in the more mundane policy decisions there's always a further advantage to whites.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Thus, the racial hierarchy that characterizes American society may be unaffected or even reinforced by ostensible improvements in the legal status of oppressed or exploited people.
    there’s a fair bit written about just this. Really, might want to read some history.

    at this point the main problem of, and for, Critical Race Theory, is the knee jerk reflexive negation of any part of it by the privileged. It’s an excuse to object to any and everything, a term as misused as Marxism, a reason to shutoff and stifle debate, an excuse not to reflect.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Read what the words actually say. It's 99% hogwash, the fashionable claim that progress is impossible and that there has been none. There's a very long way to go before reaching utopia, obviously, but this sort of bullsh!t does not help.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    As little patience as I have with Georgia Republicans, this sentence is one of the biggest piles of steaming maggot-infested horsesh!t I've seen for quite a while, although there may be a little truth mixed in somewhere. Yeah, right, the abolition of slavery and the entire civil rights movement did no good at all, only 'served the interests of dominant white groups'.
    "tend to serve"

    now tie that knee down.. 0-:

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    I used to think the good fight was anti-racist vs racist. All this stuff makes it sound like it's Black vs White, sic, in caps. About as helpful as "defund the police" - which I BTW support, but would never base a public campaign upon.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    "tend to serve"

    now tie that knee down.. 0-:
    Thanks for that--a crucial distinction.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    there’s a fair bit written about just this. Really, might want to read some history.

    at this point the main problem of, and for, Critical Race Theory, is the knee jerk reflexive negation of any part of it by the privileged. It’s an excuse to object to any and everything, a term as misused as Marxism, a reason to shutoff and stifle debate, an excuse not to reflect.
    You describe your own behavior perfectly.

    Any dissent from your raving twaddle is instantly demonized and excluded from what quickly becomes a self-immolation masquerading as a rational discussion.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    A bunch of old farts rambling about glory days, pretending they read, giving each other rub and tugs.

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    See what I mean?
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    (3) Owing to what critical race theorists call “interest convergence” or “material determinism,” legal advances (or setbacks) for people of colour tend to serve the interests of dominant white groups.
    The premise is that the interests are in irreconcilable conflict. Dialectical, zero sum. The legacy of the Marxist origin.

    Thus, the racial hierarchy that characterizes American society may be unaffected or even reinforced by ostensible improvements in the legal status of oppressed or exploited people.
    Or it may not be. Something to be proven, not assumed.

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    Forbidding teaching about CRT is as dumb -- perhaps dumber -- than forbidding teaching about Marxism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The premise is that the interests are in irreconcilable conflict. Dialectical, zero sum. The legacy of the Marxist origin.
    If I had needed more to convince me that you have little real comprehension of what critical race theory is, this would do it. You're quite wrong.

    The premise is, rather, that the dominant white culture thinks that the interests are in irreconcilable conflict, creating a zero sum game--but that, in fact, they are not. And that a large part of the work is raising awareness of that fact.

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    From the article cited by David --

    (CLS, an offshoot of Marxist-oriented critical theory, may also be viewed as a radicalization of early 20th-century legal realism, a school of legal philosophy according to which judicial decision making, especially at the appellate level, is influenced as much by nonlegal—political or ideological—factors as by precedent and principles of legal reasoning.) Like CLS scholars, critical race theorists believed that political liberalism was incapable of adequately addressing fundamental problems of injustice in American society (notwithstanding legislation and court rulings advancing civil rights in the 1950s and ’60s), because its emphasis on the equitable treatment under the law of all races (“colour blindness”) rendered it capable of recognizing only the most overt and obvious racist practices, not those that were relatively indirect, subtle, or systemic.
    "Judicial decision making is influenced by nonlegal factors" -- no one has ever said that it wasn't.

    "It fails to adequately address . . . [X]" -- it wasn't meant to. It interprets the law and decides cases. The legislature makes the law. under the Constitution.

    "Political liberalism is incapable . . . because its emphasis on the equitable treatment under the law . . . "

    They must have meant to say equal treatment, because a dedication to equitable treatment isn't held up by anything.

    So the premise is that equal treatment under the law is inequitable? Should it be abandoned, then? Should a judge say, this decision would be decided the other way, but for race? Should the legislature say, this legislation favors one race over others?

    How did this all work out under Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot or Kim Il Sung? How well have Marxist regimes transcended the supposedly incurable defects of liberal democracy? Their law is a wretched pretense, their courts and legislatures are fraudulent. Are we supposed to take a deep breath and accept it for ourselves as the unavoidable cost of "equitable treatment under the law"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    If I had needed more to convince me that you have little real comprehension of what critical race theory is, this would do it. You're quite wrong.

    The premise is, rather, that the dominant white culture thinks that the interests are in irreconcilable conflict, creating a zero sum game--but that, in fact, they are not. And that a large part of the work is raising awareness of that fact.
    That's what you think it means, or rather, what you wish it meant, because you understand or intuit that the original version is untenable.

    In any case, under your version, the struggle is cultural, not legal. What people think, their awareness. What insuperable burdens does liberal democracy place in the way of changing awareness? What legislation, what judicial philosophy would change what people think?

    In the next breath you will say that racism resides not in anyone's thought at all, but rather in the disparities that are the legacy of racism, which are likewise untouchable by law as it exists under liberal democracy.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    There’s a fair bit written about just this. Really, might want to read some history.
    Against my better judgement, I'll say I've read a far bit of history. Knowledge of history is precisely why I say the bit I quoted is utter nonsense. It's not all that bad, but that particular sentence is .
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    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    The premise is, rather, that the dominant white culture thinks that the interests are in irreconcilable conflict, creating a zero sum game--but that, in fact, they are not. And that a large part of the work is raising awareness of that fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    That's what you think it means, or rather, what you wish it meant, because you understand or intuit that the original version is untenable.
    No. That's what I think it means, because I am considerably more well informed than you appear to be.

    If you'd like to remedy your ignorance, you might start here:

    Although some have heralded recent political and cultural developments as signaling the arrival of a postracial era in America,several legal and social controversies regarding ‘‘reverse racism’’ highlight Whites’ increasing concern about anti-White bias.We show that this emerging belief reflects Whites’ view of racism as a zero-sum game, such that decreases in perceived biasagainst Blacks over the past six decades are associated with increases in perceived bias against Whites—a relationship notobserved in Blacks’ perceptions. Moreover, these changes in Whites’ conceptions of racism are extreme enough that Whites havenow come to view anti-White bias as a bigger societal problem than anti-Black bias.
    Here's the entire article related to that abstract.

    Now, here's a recent opinion from the anti-racist side of the struggle:

    But I can have and express concern about issues that affect me personally while simultaneously supporting and advocating for the rights of other people.The fight for justice is not a zero-sum game; rather, the success of one minority group often precipitates progress for others.
    For many Asian Americans, this is a message that bears repeating. Part of the danger of the “model minority” myth is that even some Asian Americans are susceptible to buying into it because it casts a portion of us in a generally positive light; this acceptance creates tensions even within the movement for racial equality.
    The reality is that whatever level of success Asian Americans have achieved would not have been possible without the trails forged by African Americans in civil rights legislation.
    When the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964, it opened the gates for the passage of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, which effectively dismantled the Chinese Exclusion Act and legalized unrestricted Asian immigration.
    Source

    So, as I posted earlier, it is white people, not critical race theorists and anti-racists, who see a zero-sum game. You are quite wrong to believe that it's the other way around. Perhaps taking the time to understand what you are criticizing before you begin would help you avoid getting such fundamental premises completely wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    In any case, under your version, the struggle is cultural, not legal.
    Sir Binary has not yet surrendered, even in the face of repeated ignominious defeat! What courage!

    Since laws and courts and legislative bodies are very much part of the culture, to attempt to separate them into separate concerns is misguided at best. So, at least you are maintaining your consistency, even if it's only to be consistently mistaken about the issues you address.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    It really is chaotic to have multiple threads about the same topic going...
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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    especially when people start bumping dead threads
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    especially when people start bumping dead threads
    Dead? It was started less than a week earlier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Dead? It was started less than a week earlier.
    today 30 - start day 21= started 9 days ago..

    30 - last prev post 22 = trailed off more than a week earlier.

    not that the numbers are important, but accuracy might be.

    and maybe continuing threads would be nice.. but harping about it is little more than 'being that guy'.. 0-:

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    don't be that guy
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    today 30 - start day 21= started 9 days ago..

    30 - last prev post 22 = trailed off more than a week earlier.

    not that the numbers are important, but accuracy might be.

    and maybe continuing threads would be nice.. but harping about it is little more than 'being that guy'.. 0-:
    Right you are. Change that to 'barely a week earlier'.

    Objection still stands. Just another of my pet peeves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    don't be that guy
    David G
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    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Right you are. Change that to 'barely a week earlier'.

    Objection still stands. Just another of my pet peeves.
    You seem to have quite the menagerie.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Critical race theory

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    You seem to have quite the menagerie.
    Don't get him started...

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