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Thread: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

  1. #1
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    Default Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    So I've been contemplating my next build for a little while now and have come across 2 designs I very much like, before I put up the glorious pictures a bit about what i'm aiming for in looking at designs and plans. I'm putting this thread up as anyone would and am interested in what others think of it all. so what I think I want in a design currently:

    - basic accommodation for an adult and 2 kids (bonus points if it fits an extra adult occasionally) to suit the occasional overnight or weekend, but mostly day sailing
    - used mostly as a day sailer with some weekend or overnight trips
    - fun to sail
    - possible to single handed sail


    I'm on the fence about if I should make it trailerable or not, we have road rules that mean it should be under 3.5m beam (max), ideally it should be under 2.5 but you can get an exception and travel during daylight hours and have some additional signage and go over that. But that seems to limit the market a bit in terms of available plans. The next thing about a trailer is the keel options change pretty heavily Vs' something that would be kept at the Marina or in a slip.

    When looking at designs and plans I'll be the first to admit to pretty large gap in my knowledge of things, a couple of things that I think might be good:
    - A keel that can be lifted if the boat goes on a trailer
    - Transom hung rudder, just seems nice and simple and out of the way and easy to repair if needed
    - spinnaker pole, i doubt it'd get used all that much until the kids are older but it looks nice
    - Simple almost spartan below deck accommodations


    Construction wise, I am enamored by the idea of doing strip plank with a possible cold molded overlay on the strip planking, i like the idea of this construction method and I like the rounded hull form it yields.

    Design Contender Number 1:
    Bedard Yacht Design
    https://www.bedardyachtdesign.com/designs/sail/buzzard-950-racing-sailboat/




    Design Contender Number 2:
    Lion 800
    Unik Yachts - https://unikyachts.com/en/lion-800-2/



    I've listed below some of the design influences that I've seen of recent times and will be contacting to see if they will sell plans for there design or not:

    Design 1:
    LA 28 - http://www.berckemeyer-yacht.de/yach...daysailer.html


    Design 2:
    SpeedLounger 8500 - https://speedlounger.com/




    You may pick up from those Design influences above that I like the reverse sheer, I've also been enjoying the look of the small lower cabins to give the Yacht some sleek lines. My only concern would be the intended location to use these is not always on inland lakes and waters, I'd like to be able to put it into the sea out in the Bay near where I live on a nice day and not be too concerned about the swell and waves in the ocean.

    Let me know what you think and if you know any other designs that I should be looking at. The Wooden boat plans store has put me onto a few that i'm still looking at.
    Cheers
    My First Boat Build:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...acgregor-Canoe
    Iain Oughtred - Macgregor Canoe - 15 foot

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    The second one fits into the 'aquired taste' range for me.. and seems to be flat planes rather than rounded hull? Neither look very child friendly from the point of life lines or toe rails. Likely to be a bit wet in waves too.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Last edited by robm; 05-14-2021 at 03:39 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    If it was my time and my effort,the last would be the one.The Bedard has a kelp catching keel and an S-drive installation.I have never seen an S-drive in a wooden hull.The other daysailor is pretty,but the curved sheer and cabin would mean a good deal of extra work.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Not every designer out there can draw the so called good boat, one that will still be admired decades after some racing rule has faded into obscurity. Dudley Dix can draw a well rounded good boat that does most things well. He keeps the builder in mind too, this matters. The others you posted will excel at a couple things and suck at a number things, family comfort and happy wife at the top of the list.
    I have sailed in sporty conditions with the wife and young kids. If she does not feel the kids are comfy and safe the whole thing will come tumbling down.
    A balanced hull and cockpit with backrests are a plus for not just comfort but also making lifelong sailors out of the family.
    ​​♦ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
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    ♦ George Orwell

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Didi 950 is similar to the boats on your list, has lifting keel and has already been drawn in radius chine plywood. So round hull but less labor intensive. Only issue is it's a bit wider than 3.5.

    Didi 950 radius chine plywood Class 950 boat plans (dixdesign.com)

    Didi 950 | Flickr

    didi950accomlift.png

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Just saw another pretty cool boat, probably a bit more on the fast and race style than cruising around or anything like that... https://www.aeoloscomposites.com/aeolos-p30-racer
    is it wrong to want the plans and to not have to spend the money on a complete carbon hull.... would be almost the right boat to have fun in, part of the thing for me is the build and enjoying that process. By the time that is done I’ll be another 5 or more years down the track, so kids will be substantially bigger and more helpful with the setup and sailing. My wife isn’t that keen on going on the boat, doesn’t mind the canoe or kayak, but prefers off the water activities which is fine.

    so it will most likely be me and the boys out on the water on the odd weekend when she is stuck at work or similar.

    I do like a few of Dudley Dixs boats, they are just optimised for cruising and have a lot more below deck room.

    I like the lower profile of the boats like the mini transat 6.5 boats and i like the open transom designs.

    I should probably learn a bit more about why those design decisions have been made, while I continue to look for the right plan.

    one more contender from Mike Waller, TS 7.0, http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/ts7_0.html
    My First Boat Build:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...acgregor-Canoe
    Iain Oughtred - Macgregor Canoe - 15 foot

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Just curious,but any of these boats is a major undertaking in terms of work and cost. If the whole family is not 'onside' (wife?) it might get problematical...

    Re carbon hull etc.. I would build the whole thing, rather than buy a hull to finish. Hi tech carbon is really for commited racers. Are you that? Sounds not.
    Dudley Dix does come up with really good boats. And, you can build them relatively easily.
    Bit of focusing on what matters.
    Last edited by Andrew2; 05-16-2021 at 01:38 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Quote Originally Posted by simonmags View Post
    Just saw another pretty cool boat, probably a bit more on the fast and race style than cruising around or anything like that... https://www.aeoloscomposites.com/aeolos-p30-racer
    is it wrong to want the plans and to not have to spend the money on a complete carbon hull.... would be almost the right boat to have fun in, part of the thing for me is the build and enjoying that process.
    I vaguely know Hans, the guy who will be building these.

    These are out and out racing boats that will require a capable and committed crew both to operate the boat and to keep her balanced. The discussions I had with Hans recently were along the lines of trying to help him understand how little of an interior he can get away with installing in order for the boat not be penalised too badly on its IRC rating.

    Aeolus.JPG
    I can't imagine that this would be in any way suitable as a family sailing boat...

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Points well taken about the P30 being a bit too race oriented. I think for myself and the boys there is a strong positive correlation between getting along at a pretty good clip (going reasonably fast) and having fun. My dear wife is onboard with the project, however it gets used.

    I see Van Gorkon Yachts have a couple of designs, mostly a bit more race oriented, a little higher in the price bracket for the plans package but you get that I guess.
    The VG30 - https://www.vgyd.com/project/the-vg-open30-crck/
    The VG 111 - https://www.vgyd.com/project/the-vg-111/


    These are getting closer to where I started looking. I was attracted to the different styling of the Berckemeyer LA28 and then when looking at his website found the BM28. The BM28 is the first boat I enquired about plans for, still hope to hear back if they will do a plans kit/package, but looking at everything else in the meantime.

    Berckemeyer BM28 - http://www.berckemeyer-yacht.de/yach...8_classic.html



    I guess part of what I need to learn to ask questions about with any of these designs is what sort of heel they are designed to sail at and if I should be concerned if that heel is above a certain point, I'd imagine lunch boxes and drink bottle would need to be put aside while under sail in some of these.

    I've seen shorthanded sailing mentioned on a number of designs, I'm guessing that might be a category of sailing or racing in a particular class? More so than it being applicable to someone trying to sail the boat in a relatively solo manner...
    My First Boat Build:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...acgregor-Canoe
    Iain Oughtred - Macgregor Canoe - 15 foot

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Your original design #2 has a self tacking jib, that is a nice feature for shorthanded sailing. Or sailing when the crew don’t want to do anything but sit back and enjoy, or hold on. If another design does not have this out of the box, I’d ask the designer if it’s could be possible.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Quote Originally Posted by simonmags View Post
    I guess part of what I need to learn to ask questions about with any of these designs is what sort of heel they are designed to sail at and if I should be concerned if that heel is above a certain point, I'd imagine lunch boxes and drink bottle would need to be put aside while under sail in some of these.

    I've seen shorthanded sailing mentioned on a number of designs, I'm guessing that might be a category of sailing or racing in a particular class? More so than it being applicable to someone trying to sail the boat in a relatively solo manner...
    Heel angle is an interesting consideration. I started in keelboats, but moved to small centerboarders 20+ years ago. A few years back I had the opportunity to spend a lot of time on keelboats again, in typically 15-20 knot tradewind conditions.

    After so much time on small boats, where crew weight usually suffices to keep things flat, I was really surprised by how much less comfortable it was to be aboard a heeled boat.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    I suspect that some of the boats already looked at might need a bit of weight on the weather rail.

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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    E x a c t l y

    yes, for example a small sailboat for a lone sailor of 6 meters or 20 feet in length could carry 260 liters of seawater (more or less equivalent to three brave and sturdy crew members) increasing + 100% its Sailing Carrying Power

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    1979

    "American Express" (MiniTransat winner)

    LWL: 6.5 meters
    Water Ballast: 280 liters

    2020

    Dehler 30 OD

    https://www.hanseyachtsag.com/dehler...30-one-design/

    9 m
    200 liters Water Ballast

    ---

    I mean that for a light, sporty, powerful sailboat "less is more", remember that the gigantic Clippers hoisted around 1 square meter per Ton and, on the other hand, a small boat can carry 20-30-50 square meters per Ton

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimalism

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    well, no, it is not exactly like that, because the light sports sailboats of 6-12 meters in length are very similar: 20 square meters per Ton (Beating)

    I have been carried away by enthusiasm and my preferences

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    Your original design #2 has a self tacking jib, that is a nice feature for shorthanded sailing. Or sailing when the crew donít want to do anything but sit back and enjoy, or hold on. If another design does not have this out of the box, Iíd ask the designer if itís could be possible.
    Thanks Matt, anything that makes the first few years of sailing with younger kids or teenagers is a good idea. Self tacking jib added to the list.

    I haven't learned a great deal about water ballast as yet, but it does sound like it may be needed in some of these designs and I have certainly seen a couple of designs with it specified in the plans. A question on water ballast, is it possible to send the water to the high side of the boat to help even it out automatically with something other than an Electric pump and some form of angle instrument to gage the heel of the boat electronically, guessing an inclinometer...


    That deheler 30 one design certainly looks like fun. I keep finding similar designs but normally I cannot find an option to buy plans to do a self build as an option. Always worth a look though as I am sure there must be designers with plans suitable for an amatuer that I've yet to look at. I am starting to consider boats which may require to be kept in a yard or on a mooring with fixed keel as well. Would certainly still see benefit in having a trailerable boat though.
    My First Boat Build:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...acgregor-Canoe
    Iain Oughtred - Macgregor Canoe - 15 foot

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Take a look at this: http://www.balta.fr/tangaradayboat.html
    Beam: 2.5m, 4 berths, vertically lifting keel, inboard diesel, strip planked, designed for amateur construction.
    The architect has several variations on the same hull, including ketch, gaff cutter, single or double transom hung rudder, open transom, outboard engine, centreboard, doghouse cabin, no cabin.
    The most sportive one is the gaff cutter with 61sqm of working sail area on 2250kg max. displacement. http://www.balta.fr/tangara-aurique.html


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    That Balta french design is nice and I do like that it comes with an option for a Bermudan type rig. Which I imagine would give me more options in sailing short or single handed when needed. I do like the self furling roller jibs and I think someone already mentioned I should put self tacking jib on the list.

    That Balta enfant perdu is bigger than I had been thinking about at 12 meters. She does look very pretty though.
    http://www.balta.fr/enfant perdu.html

    Is the trend around a reverse sheer mostly just around reducing windage on the hull? I know on the foiling boats everything is out the window as they use the hull or at least half of it as a wing to generate lift. But I'd imagine the reverse sheer may serve some purpose on a more traditional monohull as well?

    I'd been giving preference to designers with modern designs i.e. the design is under 10 years old
    I'd also prefer the designer to still be working so if needed some communication back and forth around details of the design could be clarified if needed. I'd imagine this may be easier too if we are aligned in terms of language.

    So much still to slowly work through, there doesn't seem to be a proforma to follow in terms of designs, one designer might give you full size drawings, another will specify that plans need to be lofted. There also isn't a list of things to expect which are similar from designer to designer, i.e. should I expect a full wind rose, rollover testing results, expected centre of gravity and effort in all the plans....

    I think part of why I like the Bedard 9.5 even though it's not perhaps as round as I'd imagined is that Bedard isn't shy about providing the CNC plans which would give me options for making the frames and or a mold/plug if needed.
    My First Boat Build:
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    Iain Oughtred - Macgregor Canoe - 15 foot

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    The enfant perdu is twice the boat, it does not fit your SOR, but I do agree it is a mighty fine design. I am sure Balta will change the rig to your specifications if asked.

    The reverse sheer is as much fashion as it is for technical reasons. Removing weight from the ends and maintaining interior height gives you a certain profile. But, only really high performance boats can actually use a reverse bow, for most boats it's fashion.

    The bedard is really a race boat, but you know what fits you best. I agree going for a living designer is best.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    I'd take a look at Keith Callaghan's portfolio. He knows his onions. Light centerboarders with an eye on still being manageable shorthanded. Digital plans. Made his name with Merlin Rockets.

    https://www.bluelightning.co.uk

    Here's video of his BlueStorm 900


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    In the mid-70's I checked out a book from the library, 40-45-? boats you can build?. Some were wood, some were metal. There was a 28 foot catboat that had a fairly spacious cabin and the author thought it would be suitably capable of sailing anywhere in the world. It seemed like a very suitable boat to someone with no experience in such things. Don't remember any details of the actual name of the book, author, publisher, design name of the boat, etc.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Out of curiosity, simonmags, what were your earlier builds? Much smaller, or similar sized boats?

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Thinking about Build number 2 - sailing boat 27 to 32 foot

    Thanks for the answers to a few of my questions, that blue storm 900 looks awesome, round bottom and developed plywood sides.

    https://www.bluelightning.co.uk/ts/b...0900%2001.shtm

    Will make some Time next week to email him.

    andrew haven’t built anything this big before, but duck flat wooden boats is just up the road so can get help when I get stuck.
    My First Boat Build:
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    Iain Oughtred - Macgregor Canoe - 15 foot

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