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Thread: Want to see the Big Lie die?

  1. #1
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    Default Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Take it to court --

    The Jan. 6 insurrection defendants are beginning to confront the legal system and formulate defenses for their conduct, and many of them are repenting, in a fashion.

    Not so in the broader political setting of the Republican Party, where the big lie that President Biden stole the election still reigns.

    Last week, Anthony Antonio, charged with five counts including violent entry, disorderly conduct and impeding law enforcement during civil disorder, advanced a newfangled defense in a preliminary hearing: “Foxitis.”

    Antonio’s lawyer told the judge that his client lost his job and fell into a steady diet of Fox News TV, eventually succumbing to the network’s persistent lies about a stolen election: “He became hooked with what I call ‘Foxitis’ or ‘Foxmania,’ and … started believing what was being fed to him.”

    According to an FBI affidavit, footage of the Capitol riot includes Antonio screaming, “You want war? We got war! 1776 all over again,” and telling a police officer, “We will not back down,” before he takes an officer’s gas mask and jumps through a broken window into the Capitol.

    Antonio’s defense is more colorful than most, but it has this in common with what we’re seeing in court proceedings related to Jan. 6 arrestees: Under threat of perjury, they aren’t justifying their behavior by saying that President Trump won the 2020 election.

    CBS News reported Tuesday that 440 defendants have been charged to date, and the government intends to charge 100 or so more. The defendants are offering sundry excuses for what they did: They were journalists covering the event; they were obeying the orders of the commander in chief; or more technically, for those charged with obstructing an official proceeding, the law in question doesn’t cover Congress’ certification of the electoral college vote.

    That Trump’s big lie isn’t being offered up as a defense is encouraging. The courts are serving their role as a social institution where the truth will out. The Jan. 6 defendants know they have to sober up at least insofar as abandoning the false claim that propelled the insurrection. “Maybe I believed that America was being robbed of a president,” Antonio told CNN on Monday. “I now know that that was a lie.”

    Will Antonio’s “Foxitis” claim work?

    To a lot of observers, it seems at least plausible that a significant cohort of the insurrectionists — not all of them surely (and possibly not Antonio) — took leave of their senses Jan. 6 out of some complicated combination of mass psychology, social alienation and the whip hand of Trump and his supporters.

    In this sense, they are in the lineage of offenders — such as members of religious cults who commit crimes, or kidnapped-heiress-turned-robber Patty Hearst, or battered women who kill their partners — who seek leniency on the ground that they had succumbed to overwhelming psychological pressure and were in a kind of fever dream.

    The courts struggle with such claims, which don’t quite fit into any of the accepted justifications and excuses, such as necessity, duress or diminished capacity. Each of those defenses incorporate fairly stringent tests that “Fox News made me do it” would probably not meet. Can Antonio’s lawyer convince anyone that as he stormed the Capitol, he really didn’t know what he was doing?

    On the other hand, Antonio may stand a better chance in court than one of the people he might have fallen prey to on Fox News, attorney Sidney Powell. She spent weeks proclaiming the big lie with total confidence.

    Powell’s day of reckoning is coming in the form of a defamation lawsuit from Dominion Voting Systems, which she claimed was corrupt and had falsified the vote in key states. Her excuse in court so far? Yes, I lied (again and again), but no reasonable person would have believed my silly, false claims.

    The rationalizations offered by Powell, Antonio and the rest of the Jan. 6 arrestees will be sifted in the courts for years to come. With so many defendants, the legal system is going to need to temper justice with mercy in many cases.

    As they sort out punishment, the courts are at least confirming the flimsiness and the falsity of the big lie, something a good part of the political system cannot manage.

    House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy’s ruthlessness toward Rep. Liz Cheney is a case in point. Cheney was forced to forfeit her GOP leadership role for the great sin of telling the truth: “I will not sit back in silence,” she said in a speech Tuesday night, “while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former president’s crusade to undermine our democracy.”

    McCarthy and Cheney’s colleagues understand the election was not stolen. Given the deep support for Trump among the Republican base, however, they are actively willing to flog the big lie no matter what.

    For now, in fact, among the instigators and advocates of the big lie, and those brainwashed by it, the only cure appears to be the crucible of a court proceeding. The Trump years have taken some politicians’ tolerance for dishonesty to new highs. Until we can reimpose a political cost for brazen untruths, we have to look to the legal system to enforce sanity.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    The lie will never die, you are trying to convince the same people who believe Jesus had blue eyes.
    Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business.
    TOM ROBBINS, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues



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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Of course Jesus had (has) blue eyes. His mother looked like a Scandinavian blonde.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by switters View Post
    The lie will never die, you are trying to convince the same people who believe Jesus had blue eyes.
    On one hand, you're right. The success of a decades-long disinformation campaign is quite apparent.

    Otoh, it also seems to be true that the wrangling in the R party is leading to reduced support for Trump among independents and suburban R's. Having the lie exposed and/or dismissed by the courts will only further that trend.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    I suggest that in order to secure the future of democracy in the United States it will be good if the shameful lie is forensically examined and exposed again, and again, and again, in the Courts.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    My bad, I said something contrary to " he who can not be wrong". You are of course right again and your confirmation bias is also spot on. As a minor aside, killing the lie is not the same as slightly reducing someone else's confirmation bias, it is funny how that works.
    Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business.
    TOM ROBBINS, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues



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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by switters View Post
    My bad, I said something contrary to " he who can not be wrong". You are of course right again and your confirmation bias is also spot on. As a minor aside, killing the lie is not the same as slightly reducing someone else's confirmation bias, it is funny how that works.
    Oh... I can be wrong.

    And another way you're right. It's true the Big Lie will not entirely die. At least not anytime soon. So the article title is a bit hyperbolic.

    And you didn't add, but could have, that when this one dies... they'll simply attempt to replace it with a fresh new slice of cowpie.

    But dismissing the true parts of what I said? For what appear to be personal tu quoque -ish reasons? That's lame. As our unbiased outside observer from Great Britain notes... it really does help if the lie exposed to daylight. The more the better.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I suggest that in order to secure the future of democracy in the United States it will be good if the shameful lie is forensically examined and exposed again, and again, and again, in the Courts.
    Have that broadcast, uninterrupted and unedited, on every network, radio station, streaming platform and in all that remains of printed news media.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I can be wrong.
    Right again!
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    For the gas lighter in chief he probably likes patriot insurrectionists who don’t get caught. In the meantime the GOP leadership is keeping the lie alive.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Guys, really? It's not 'Will the lie die or not?', but rather 'How many people will keep believing the lie?' That number can vary anywhere from zero to 100 million or more.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Take it to court --

    The Jan. 6 insurrection defendants are beginning to confront the legal system and formulate defenses for their conduct, and many of them are repenting, in a fashion.

    Not so in the broader political setting of the Republican Party, where the big lie that President Biden stole the election still reigns.

    Last week, Anthony Antonio, charged with five counts including violent entry, disorderly conduct and impeding law enforcement during civil disorder, advanced a newfangled defense in a preliminary hearing: “Foxitis.”

    Antonio’s lawyer told the judge that his client lost his job and fell into a steady diet of Fox News TV, eventually succumbing to the network’s persistent lies about a stolen election: “He became hooked with what I call ‘Foxitis’ or ‘Foxmania,’ and … started believing what was being fed to him.”

    According to an FBI affidavit, footage of the Capitol riot includes Antonio screaming, “You want war? We got war! 1776 all over again,” and telling a police officer, “We will not back down,” before he takes an officer’s gas mask and jumps through a broken window into the Capitol.

    Antonio’s defense is more colorful than most, but it has this in common with what we’re seeing in court proceedings related to Jan. 6 arrestees: Under threat of perjury, they aren’t justifying their behavior by saying that President Trump won the 2020 election.

    CBS News reported Tuesday that 440 defendants have been charged to date, and the government intends to charge 100 or so more. The defendants are offering sundry excuses for what they did: They were journalists covering the event; they were obeying the orders of the commander in chief; or more technically, for those charged with obstructing an official proceeding, the law in question doesn’t cover Congress’ certification of the electoral college vote.

    That Trump’s big lie isn’t being offered up as a defense is encouraging. The courts are serving their role as a social institution where the truth will out. The Jan. 6 defendants know they have to sober up at least insofar as abandoning the false claim that propelled the insurrection. “Maybe I believed that America was being robbed of a president,” Antonio told CNN on Monday. “I now know that that was a lie.”

    Will Antonio’s “Foxitis” claim work?

    To a lot of observers, it seems at least plausible that a significant cohort of the insurrectionists — not all of them surely (and possibly not Antonio) — took leave of their senses Jan. 6 out of some complicated combination of mass psychology, social alienation and the whip hand of Trump and his supporters.

    In this sense, they are in the lineage of offenders — such as members of religious cults who commit crimes, or kidnapped-heiress-turned-robber Patty Hearst, or battered women who kill their partners — who seek leniency on the ground that they had succumbed to overwhelming psychological pressure and were in a kind of fever dream.

    The courts struggle with such claims, which don’t quite fit into any of the accepted justifications and excuses, such as necessity, duress or diminished capacity. Each of those defenses incorporate fairly stringent tests that “Fox News made me do it” would probably not meet. Can Antonio’s lawyer convince anyone that as he stormed the Capitol, he really didn’t know what he was doing?

    On the other hand, Antonio may stand a better chance in court than one of the people he might have fallen prey to on Fox News, attorney Sidney Powell. She spent weeks proclaiming the big lie with total confidence.

    Powell’s day of reckoning is coming in the form of a defamation lawsuit from Dominion Voting Systems, which she claimed was corrupt and had falsified the vote in key states. Her excuse in court so far? Yes, I lied (again and again), but no reasonable person would have believed my silly, false claims.

    The rationalizations offered by Powell, Antonio and the rest of the Jan. 6 arrestees will be sifted in the courts for years to come. With so many defendants, the legal system is going to need to temper justice with mercy in many cases.

    As they sort out punishment, the courts are at least confirming the flimsiness and the falsity of the big lie, something a good part of the political system cannot manage.

    House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy’s ruthlessness toward Rep. Liz Cheney is a case in point. Cheney was forced to forfeit her GOP leadership role for the great sin of telling the truth: “I will not sit back in silence,” she said in a speech Tuesday night, “while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former president’s crusade to undermine our democracy.”

    McCarthy and Cheney’s colleagues understand the election was not stolen. Given the deep support for Trump among the Republican base, however, they are actively willing to flog the big lie no matter what.

    For now, in fact, among the instigators and advocates of the big lie, and those brainwashed by it, the only cure appears to be the crucible of a court proceeding. The Trump years have taken some politicians’ tolerance for dishonesty to new highs. Until we can reimpose a political cost for brazen untruths, we have to look to the legal system to enforce sanity.
    If Foxitis works, then it seems FOX can be held liable.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Appreciate the admission of hyperbole, next paragraph, I could have. A sin of omission? No. And yes I agree the next missive from the ministry of truth will be more BS. I didn't dismiss part of what you said, merely pointed out that you have now contradicted yourself, see confirmation bias and hyperbole.

    Unbiased observer, um no, refer to confirmation bias again please.

    To reacap, In my opinion the big lie about the election will not die in the same way that racism or homophobia will die. We do agree that the lie about trump winning the election should die. Don't want to put words into your mouth about the comparison.
    Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business.
    TOM ROBBINS, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues



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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Typing on a phone and seeing one line of text at a time makes me (look like) an idiot,. Have fun quoting that. Low hanging fruit. Cheers.
    Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business.
    TOM ROBBINS, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues



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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by switters View Post
    Typing on a phone and seeing one line of text at a time makes me (look like) an idiot,. Have fun quoting that. Low hanging fruit. Cheers.
    Well I don't think you're an idiot, if that's any consolation.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by switters View Post
    Typing on a phone and seeing one line of text at a time makes me (look like) an idiot,. Have fun quoting that. Low hanging fruit. Cheers.
    'Look' you say?? <G>

    OK... not fair. You are welcome to a mulligan.
    David G
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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I suggest that in order to secure the future of democracy in the United States it will be good if the shameful lie is forensically examined and exposed again, and again, and again, in the Courts.
    Like the war of northern aggression...

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Why would a person with little if any historical perspective, no great logic skills, little self awareness and less sense of personal shame feel any remorse about coming up with any lame cockamamie of an excuse in court if they thought it was a way to get them off? Perhaps even the only way to absolve themselves of personal responsibility. These historical illiterates we will see paraded with their shabby excuses will in the end bear no responsibility for anything they will say in court. Consequently, whatever the outcome for them personally, in most cases the process of meting out justice (and that it be seen to be done) will be taken as proof by the very tools on trial of the foulness of the existing system. Babbitt's family is suing (civil suit I assume) because she was killed leading an insurrection through a barred door. This was surely all the cops' fault. This and much more shows just how our education system has failed us. Aside: What don't Republicans get about education also being part of infrastructure? It's all infrastructure and our civics education system (if there is one left) could use a complete overhaul.

    The most useful defense as respects serving the truth would be if defendants repeated that they were obeying Trump, which is what it boils down to anyway. Of course Fox has doubled down and Newsmax's loss to Dominion hasn't changed their vitriolic BS in the least that I can see. This shall pass just as the ancients inform us but how to judge the resilience of these lies and the liars who invent them? They seem pretty sturdy. Maybe Joseph and Magda had body doubles because Fox is straight from their playbook. Rupert is thoroughly complicit. Foxitis as a defense suggests Fox is a disease. It is.

    Talking about it, air and sunlight, may be the best medicine but I find it depressingly redundant which is why I don't come here to discuss it much anymore. It makes me sad.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    At first, I was kidding. Thinking about it, if a defendant presents the "Fox news made me do it" defense, why not make Fox news a co-defendant?

    That could prove to be quite interesting.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    I was triggered by your comment.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Speaking of liars, Georgia’s 14 Congressional District sure picked a peach.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...84a_story.html

    Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene aggressively confronted Democratic Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Wednesday and falsely accused her of supporting “terrorists,” leading the New York congresswoman’s office to call on leadership to ensure that Congress remains “a safe, civil place for all Members and staff.”
    Two Washington Post reporters witnessed Ocasio-Cortez (N.Y.) exit the House chamber late Wednesday afternoon ahead of Greene (Ga.), who shouted “Hey Alexandria” twice in an effort to get her attention. When Ocasio-Cortez did not stop walking, Greene picked up her pace and began shouting at her and asking why she supports antifa, a loosely knit group of far-left activists, and Black Lives Matter, falsely labeling them “terrorist” groups. Greene also shouted that Ocasio-Cortez was failing to defend her “radical socialist” beliefs by declining to publicly debate the freshman from Georgia.
    “You don’t care about the American people,” Greene shouted. “Why do you support terrorists and antifa?”

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Censure? They don't use that often and it would probably be on party lines but you never can tell. Liz Chaney would love to vote for censure of a big fat liar, I'm sure. I will be surprised if she completes her full term before censure is raised as an issue. She's already out of committee work.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    georgia, making alabama look good
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    Now there is an R congressman claiming there was no capitol insurrection at all, just a bunch of the usual tourists visiting and touring the capitol.

    Insurrection deniers now.
    Seems like any Big Lie spins of a flurry of lesser lies as vain attempts to bolster the Big'n.
    David G
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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    It would be great if exposing the lies to clear air, and legal process, would provoke a reconsideration of political affiliation on the part of just enough of the misguided electorate to bail ourselves out of the mess which may ensue in 2022.

    But there are many other reasons that so many people follow the Regressive pied pipers.

    And pulling the curtain away to reveal the utter illusion of the great Maga-cian is not going to change that.

    The Great Lie is merely a talisman, a rosary, a lucky charm. In order for these people to need such items, they have to believe that the talisman will address their real conflicts, angers and fears.

    Removing one talisman will simply open up a space for some other one.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I suggest that in order to secure the future of democracy in the United States it will be good if the shameful lie is forensically examined and exposed again, and again, and again, in the Courts.
    I say that is the very last thing that needs doing. What needs saying is: "Whatever you mean by 'the big lie' is irrelevant even if it happened."

    The House of Representatives counts the electoral votes and it is that count that elects the President. That's the election. The one power on earth that might overturn it is the federal judiciary, which would be extraordinarily unlikely to do so.

    1. Separation of powers
    2. No plaintiff has standing

    It would be like insisting that a declaration of war was "a big lie". You have no standing to sue. You weren't injured. And if you were, what do you want, the declaration to be "voided"? GTFOOH.

    And it stacks up much the same in the states.

    In short these issues are foreclosed, there is nothing for any court to take up. That's what needs to be said -- not "take it to court." You can't.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    It is, and has always been, the case that sunlight is unhealthy for all sorts of corruption.

    Not instant death. Not automatic. Not Kryptonite.

    But insalubrious.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    It is, and has always been, the case that sunlight is unhealthy for all sorts of corruption.

    Not instant death. Not automatic. Not Kryptonite.

    But insalubrious.
    This misses the point, and feeds their narrative.

    Courts do not investigate. Courts resolve the disputes that are brought to them, not those they feel "need" resolving; and that are within their jurisdiction, not just any god damn fool thing somebody feels like talking about.

    The narrative is put over by indulging the error "why not the courts?", based on the undisciplined emotion that "somebody must do something! What about our concerns?"
    That's the justification of the Capitol attackers and their apologists. How is it error when they do it, but not when we do it? Stop doing it. Get this S straight, keep it straight, and insist that everybody keep it straight, all the time. It's how our republic works.

    The light shines upon this and does not waver:

    1. Separation of powers
    2. No plaintiff has standing

    Case dismissed. No hearings, no findings, no orders -- other than dismissal -- no judgment. It's The End, like the end of a movie. The screen goes dark. No more movie. No shining of light on corruption or anything at all. It was a real short movie.

    Making the same short movie 1,000 times adds nothing.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Switter's and elf's nailing it not-withstanding, I expect no end to Mr. G's ongoing exercises in self reassurance. Religions of *all stripes have no basis in rationality.

    I also expect continuing Democratic denials - esp **refusals to treat reps seriously - to lead to heavy/complete losses in the next midterm and general.

    And of course, true blues being wise to the point of perfection, it will be 'the progressives fault'.

    *Well, His Noodly Goodness may. 0-:

    ** #gitmothelotofthem

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    Removing one talisman will simply open up a space for some other one.
    Keeps 'em busy.

    Meanwhile, the flood of cheap talismans leads to the rejection of the concept of talismans, among those who are capable of it. Young people, especially. Many people need talismans, and there's no helping them, ultimately. Lots of work-arounds, very fatiguing.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Something like 20% of people are likely to believe the big lie no matter what.

    What matters may be how strongly they hold those beliefs and what they do about it.

    If the 2024 Republican candidate is Trump, the MAGA types will vote for him no matter what.

    If the 2024 Republican candidate is not Trump, I don’t think the big lie will be a major factor in whether MAGA types vote and who they vote for.

    By 2024 there will be other big lies that will be more compelling to low information tribal voters. Sad but I fear true. It’ll take a while for support for democracy over authoritarianism to increase.

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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    This misses the point, and feeds their narrative.

    Courts do not investigate. Courts resolve the disputes that are brought to them, not those they feel "need" resolving; and that are within their jurisdiction, not just any god damn fool thing somebody feels like talking about.

    The narrative is put over by indulging the error "why not the courts?", based on the undisciplined emotion that "somebody must do something! What about our concerns?"
    That's the justification of the Capitol attackers and their apologists. How is it error when they do it, but not when we do it? Stop doing it. Get this S straight, keep it straight, and insist that everybody keep it straight, all the time. It's how our republic works.

    The light shines upon this and does not waver:

    1. Separation of powers
    2. No plaintiff has standing

    Case dismissed. No hearings, no findings, no orders -- other than dismissal -- no judgment. It's The End, like the end of a movie. The screen goes dark. No more movie. No shining of light on corruption or anything at all. It was a real short movie.

    Making the same short movie 1,000 times adds nothing.
    Well you seem to believe it.

    There's another movie we should be making a thousand times.

    The one where the villain gets caught red-handed slitting the throat of the Constitution and is charged with treason, tried, convicted, sentenced and executed by hanging on the National Mall.

    About a thousand times should get the message across.
    Rattling the teacups.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Something like 20% of people are likely to believe the big lie no matter what.

    What matters may be how strongly they hold those beliefs and what they do about it.

    If the 2024 Republican candidate is Trump, the MAGA types will vote for him no matter what.

    If the 2024 Republican candidate is not Trump, I don’t think the big lie will be a major factor in whether MAGA types vote and who they vote for.
    Yep, cult of personality.

    Which breeds a horde of would-be successors to cult leader. Who wins that status wins much more than a mere election. In fact you can lose an election. Look at Trump.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Well you seem to believe it.
    Believe what?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    There's another movie we should be making a thousand times.

    The one where the villain gets caught red-handed slitting the throat of the Constitution and is charged with treason, tried, convicted, sentenced and executed by hanging on the National Mall.

    About a thousand times should get the message across.
    The message of deterrence is set by the legislature when it defines crimes. The courts have the power to actually impose the punishment, within limits set by the legislature.

    None of this is involved in the various election lawsuits, because they're civil.

    If government wanders too far from its core functions into "sending a message", you get into things like the Arizona re-count. The legislature decided to "send a message". You want judges to get into "sending messages"?

    Many still believe that discrepancies found in Maricopa County could trigger a tidal wave of audits in other states, and ultimately see Trump return to the Oval Office.

    The only problem with this fantasy is that the election results have already been certified by the board of electors and Republican Gov. Doug Ducey, so no matter what the outcome of this latest audit, the election results will not change.

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/epnx...zona-for-trump

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Want to see the Big Lie die?

    Bovine gaping primates, every one.
    Gerard>
    Langley, WA

    Don't believe Republican lies.

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