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Thread: Midair at Colorado airport.

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    Default Midair at Colorado airport.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    The cirrus pilot was on his first solo, which I find hard to believe. The guy in the metro was single pilot. All very lucky.
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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    They don’t really seem to care very much that two planes that they were controlling crashed in mid air. WTF?

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    no injuries!
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    I’m not sure they even knew there was a mid air. The metro pilot reported an engine failure. The cirrus pilot stopped transmissions.
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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    I love seeing those parachutes save a plane. Can you imagine the miserable administrative nightmare and uphill battle that must have been?

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    Even if ATC did know there was a collision, the primary duty is to get them down safely if at all possible, isn't it?
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Call Tom out of retirement, that Key Lime plane will buff right out . . . . Seriously, two VERY fortunate pilots ! ! !




    Rick

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    Default Midair at Colorado airport.

    That is crazy! And I am up for some sheet metal work! As soon as I get the vette running though. Jake has graduation approaching fast!


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    Tom

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    The Metroliner pilot stayed amazingly calm. I get the idea that he didn't really know what had happened. I wonder how he felt when he looked at the damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjim View Post
    The Metroliner pilot stayed amazingly calm. I get the idea that he didn't really know what had happened. I wonder how he felt when he looked at the damage.

    I am amazed that that Key Lime Air plane didn't lose its tail. And judging from the photos (see below), the same is true for the Cessna.

    It is a Swearingen SA226-TC Metro III, apparently made in 1978.

    Swearingen seems to build some solid planes.

    https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/...oliner-midair/





    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    I am sure that Cessna Pilot needed new shorts.. lucky lucky pilots. Also lucky there were no passengers in the Key Lime plane?
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Cessna?? It's a Cirrus and commonly fitted with the ballistic chute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    Cessna?? It's a Cirrus and commonly fitted with the ballistic chute.

    I heard Cessna, but sure. Cirrus works. "The other guy" works too.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Hmm, interesting line up procedure, a "controlled" mid air collision.
    I wonder what the results of the NTSB investigation will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Hmm, interesting line up procedure, a "controlled" mid air collision.
    I wonder what the results of the NTSB investigation will be.

    A cascade of multiple failures?
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    ^probably, as usual.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Juan Browne


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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    The usual excellent report from Juan Browne.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Here is the Aviation Herald report. Accident: Key Lime SW4 and private aircraft at Denver on May 12th 2021, midair collision (avherald.com)

    There were two people in the Cirrus so it wasn't a first solo, unless it was the first flight in that aircraft type for the pilot.

    I read somewhere that the Cirrus was doing over 180 mph on Base, which would explain the fly-through. It raises the scenario of a pilot new to the airplane, unused to the speeds, and way, way, behind the airplane.

    Dave

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Lots of luck involved for all to walk away from that. Apparently going more or less through the hull of the metroliner and having rudder and elevator apparently undamaged and operational ...
    Lots of luck.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    My insurance background kicks in and I wonder if the Metroliner is repairable.

    It being a forty year old aircraft it is likely that the insured value will be less than the cost of repairs but since obviously the systems are intact and it looks like the 180 knots (phew!) contact with the underside of the Cirrus has essentially torn off the skin from starboard and carried it to port, the plane “ought” to be repairable by cropping out the damaged skin and framing and renewing them.

    I am hoping to persuade Tom to comment!

    I also think the owners and the insurers of the Metroliner are going to be suing the owners and the insurers of the Cirrus.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Watch Juan Browne's report on it. The fellow doing the first solo was in a Cessna and supposed to land after the Cirrus on the right runway.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    The prop blade left sticking up on the Cirrus looks undamaged. I suspect the landing gear on the Cirrus tore the hole in the Metroliner.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    My insurance background kicks in and I wonder if the Metroliner is repairable.

    It being a forty year old aircraft it is likely that the insured value will be less than the cost of repairs but since obviously the systems are intact and it looks like the 180 knots (phew!) contact with the underside of the Cirrus has essentially torn off the skin from starboard and carried it to port, the plane “ought” to be repairable by cropping out the damaged skin and framing and renewing them.

    I am hoping to persuade Tom to comment!

    I also think the owners and the insurers of the Metroliner are going to be suing the owners and the insurers of the Cirrus.
    I’m pretty certain it could be fixed, but it won’t be, IMHO. It would be a complicated job, shoring the aircraft and leveling all surfaces. You would need some pretty sophisticated jigs to measure and ensure the factory “alignment” (for lack of a better word) is maintained. It looks like all the critical systems fun through the floor so the structure work really wouldn’t be all that difficult.

    It’s too old of a plane to be worth the repair cost. We were scrapping MD-88’s with far less damage.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Thanks Tom. In ship repair we probably would not bother with jigs as we can tolerate minor misalignment except in container ships. But we would also scrap such an old one.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Yes, Guys, Juan Brown has a pretty good analysis. The way the Cirrus is sitting I see flaps extended for landing but the gear looks collapsed or smashed from contact with the MetroLiner.
    Some times (often?) ATC/Tower guys are not pilots. They can follow the radar returns but the reality is that the cirrus was in a right turn continuously from his right downwind to the mid-air. He may have seen the MetroLiner on long final for 17L (was it?) but from his Base to Final the Cirrus pilot may not have been able to see the MetroLiner at all (his wing was in the way). According to radar track he overshot his final for 17R. Will be interest to hear what the MetroLiner pilot saw- apparently nothing. We have ADS-B required now. It would have given some sort of idea of what was coming together, if you're watching the display.
    I have been in formation flight for EAA video shoot- two planes plus the camera plane. In right eschelon with me outboard and below I lost sight of the others- the only thing to do was to announce and peel off slowly down and to the right to remain clear of other airplanes and then catch up. Gets your attention when you lose sight of close-in aircraft.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    I am amazed that that Key Lime Air plane didn't lose its tail. And judging from the photos (see below), the same is true for the Cessna.

    It is a Swearingen SA226-TC Metro III, apparently made in 1978.

    Swearingen seems to build some solid planes.

    https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/...oliner-midair/




    Looking at the depth and shape of the hole that the Cirrus cut in the fuselage, i too am surprised that it still has blades on its props and all four wings.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    $19,000 or so for the parachute. Nice to have that option.

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Cessna was not involved in the mid-air- its pilot was only a witness.
    Looks like the Cirrus fuselage damage occurred in the parachute landing- it appeared pretty much in one piece on the way down. Not sure whether it was the Cirrus prop that did all the damage to the Metro?

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Juan Brown did his usual great job in his video.
    Not many people can say they walked away from a midair. I’m guessing neither the Metroliner, nor the Cirrus were equipped with TCAS, but I’d think they had ADSB and would have received some sort of warning. Maybe due to the very close placement of the runways the warnings were disabled or ignored.
    It looks to me that the Cirrus overshot the extended centerline of 17L. The speeds appear to have been similar. The Metro pilot never saw it coming from his 3 o’clock. I’m guessing he didn’t even know what really happened until he opened the cockpit door and saw the damage. Hope he gets a few days off with pay!
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    Hi Reynard-I agree that the Metroliner pilot likely did not see the Cirrus coming. On tower freq the tower asks the Cirrus if he has traffic in sight. (Will check again on that) Do you agree that once the Cirrus is into his Base to Final turn for 17R likely he could not see the Metroliner under his left wing as they converged? I know that with ADS-b readout targets converging near my altitude get my attention. Many thanks/ JC (I'm a pilot, too)

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    Default Re: Midair at Colorado airport.

    OK- JUst looked at it again: ATC (tower) does call out landing traffic(2) ahead of the Cirrus. It is not clear if the Cirrus is acknowleging visual on both aircraft ahead of him. This airport KAPA is right beside the Denver Class Bravo airspace so anyone flying there is supposed to have ADS-b. I note that the Cirrus continues downwind and into base turn at 140-160 knots. (Seems high to me) Metroliner slows on final and stabilizes at 110-120 knots. My thinking is that these two aircraft were not actually seeing each other and certainly the Cirrus could not see to his left under his wing in that long banking base to final turn. Too close. They were darn lucky on this one. /Cheers/ JC
    P.S.- I realize this is Monday morning quarterbacking but in aviation (and ships) we try to analyse the accidents hopefully learning something in the process. I do not fly a Cirrus so do not know what normal approach speed would be.

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