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Thread: laminating finished dimensional lumber

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    Default laminating finished dimensional lumber

    I need to laminate 3 pieces of #1 pine to make my yard for the CIY 16. They are 2,1/8" x 3/4" x 10'. This will give me a 10' blank 2,1/8" x 2,1/4". The surface is very smooth (no paint). Should I rough it up a bit with a quick pass of some coarse grit sandpaper before laminating with thickened epoxy?
    Last edited by dalekidd; 05-11-2021 at 10:38 AM.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Can’t hurt, and I’d also ‘prime’ all surfaces to be bonded with unthickened epoxy before applying the thickened mix, then clamp enough but not too much….

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by sp_clark View Post
    Can’t hurt, and I’d also ‘prime’ all surfaces to be bonded with unthickened epoxy before applying the thickened mix, then clamp enough but not too much….
    That's what I was thinking - can't hurt. Should give the epoxy more bite. Yep, I always "prime". Thanks!

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    I rough the beejeebus outta lams that are important, like spars.
    I'm tawkin dragging a sharp sawzall blade .
    I rarely pre coat.For more time to bite, use slower hardener.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Is the yard shown laminated?

    If not i’d build it as shown. The CIY is not short of sail area and is sail and oar beam. If your in higher winds having the end of the spar bend away will auto flatten the sail camber in gusts. Good when solo. This will happen less with a stiffer laminated spar, allthough stiff spars are generally good for sail shape the rest of the time. I’d expect Clint has the spar scantlings down for ‘what works’ so i’d be cautious about possibly changing its bend characteristics without checking with him first.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Is the yard shown laminated?

    If not i’d build it as shown. The CIY is not short of sail area and is sail and oar beam. If your in higher winds having the end of the spar bend away will auto flatten the sail camber in gusts. Good when solo. This will happen less with a stiffer laminated spar, allthough stiff spars are generally good for sail shape the rest of the time. I’d expect Clint has the spar scantlings down for ‘what works’ so i’d be cautious about possibly changing its bend characteristics without checking with him first.
    They are shown laminated. The yard is shown as 2 one inch laminations. I'm going with 3 three quarter inch laminations which I will trim down a bit when shaping. I'm using the lumber that is available to me without breaking the bank. We'll see when performance time comes.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    I rough the beejeebus outta lams that are important, like spars.
    I'm tawkin dragging a sharp sawzall blade .
    I rarely pre coat.For more time to bite, use slower hardener.
    I do use slow hardener not for preference but because I'm SLOW. UGH...

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Re: spar construction - read the builders instructions and study the spar drawing carefully and follow the instructions. If in doubt, contact the designer.

    Re: laminating timbers with epoxy - read the manufacturer's instructions carefully and follow the instructions. If in doubt, contact the manufacturer.

    Depending on the type of epoxy, a too-thick glue line can be as problematic as a too-thin glue line due to the brittleness and shear qualities of the epoxy. While Wizbang's method ensures good mechanical bond between epoxy and wood, if both sides are too rough the glueline becomes pretty thick and may be prone to shear failure. Most epoxies formulated for wood have pretty good penetration characteristics and don't need much mechanical 'bite'. The roughened surfaces are good when glues like Titebond or other carpentry glues are used, so I am not trying to dismiss the method out-of-hand. Dig into the epoxy manufacturer's literature, or call them, to find out what their "proper procedure" is.

    As great as our crowd here on the WBF is, the advice that you get is only as good as what you pay for it (mine included), so go to the horse's mouth (the manufacturer) to get the best advice.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Most epoxies formulated for wood have pretty good penetration characteristics and don't need much mechanical 'bite'.
    That's the only statement I take exception with in your entire post above, in that he's using 'lumberyard' pine.

    That's likely been run thru a planer prior to palleting for shipment. Whether new blades (unlikely) or 'broken in' ones, the resulting surface maybe deserves a close look before glue-up. May look smooth at first glance but may also be too smooth, with many pores closed from being beaten by knife edges.

    Softwoods, after a pass through a planer, may not bear optimal condition for gluing, whether with epoxy or anything else. Running a block wrapped with fresh 80 or 100 grit with the grain followed by a proper vacuuming off will enhance pretty much any 'factory' planed softwood surface for gluing.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Back in the day this was done with a few quick easy bi diagonal passes with a 'toothing plane'....I picked up an old Marples wooden toothing plane off Ebay last year for not much. Beside prep before gluing, you can also use them to deal with difficult grain before a quick smooth over with a superfine set 3 or a 4 'till the tooth marks are gone when smoothing. The cabinet makers toothed high end table tops before laying on and gluing expensive figured veneers back in the day.

    This chap shows their versatility...think mine was 20 or so. There aren't people chasing them on Ebay so they're pretty cheap. You'll be the only bidder. Either roughing up of planed surfaces or prep before smoothing highly figured boards like you might pick for the thwarts.

    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 05-11-2021 at 02:52 PM.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    sp_clark and Edward: Your comments above made me wonder if I had mis-remembered the information on bonding wood with epoxy that I thought I knew. With the caveat that I do not disagree with your method of 'roughing up' the faying surfaces before bonding with epoxy, a quick check of Gougeon's book made me more comfortable with my statement in post #8. In their description of laminating wood with West System epoxy, they indicate that laying up planks in laminations directly from the thickness planer is their method of doing the job.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    It'll be OK from a planer. Just don't go mad with the clamping pressure. Better off a saw but if what I was looking at was super shiny smooth and I was gluing up with a fair but of clamping pressure - say a curve, it's just away of avoiding glue starvation from excessive squeeze out by roughing up a bit, pre coating then globbing on some more with epoxy after adding some microfibres +/- a bit of colloidal silica to increase viscosity (and strength) into the pot.

    For laminating stems etc, lams off a bandsaw is ideal. You'd really have to go some to squeeze epoxy out and have applied it miserly. I think Bruce said once, you gotta trust it and apply plenty of it, which is true. Epoxy's not cheap but when I unwrap it out of the plastic under the clamps I want to see some squeeze out though. In this case the 2.5 inch or so wide glue line has plenty of area and softwoods glue well. Most people don't own the big G clamps that can really put alot of pressure on.

    I actually prefer Resorcinol and use that for tight durable glue lines on backbone structures and spars to be frank. One of it's advantages - it loves a good hard tight clamping (besides UV and fatigue resistance). Not so available in the US and means another pot of goo. Considering all the glued up spars and birdsmouth hobbies, spar failure on small dinghies seems pretty rare. The key to long durability is avoiding penetrating screws and fittings.

    One of the best knots to know of is the Icicle hitch. It can hold a tapering spar, on the taper, without letting go. No fitting.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 05-11-2021 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    On occasion, wood from the lumber yard is not only nearly polished on the surface, but there are times when it even seems like there might be a bit of some sort of waxy stuff on it as well. I don't know squat about the lumber business and what processes they use, but there is no way I would laminate it without giving the surfaces a quick rub-down with a block and some 80 grit before they get epoxy on them.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Regarding Michael's post...

    I've seen a study indicating same, but if the grooves created with a sharp saw blade are deep enough there will be added surface area and something of a mechanical bond as well, not that that is all that important since when using pine the bonded surface will be stronger than the wood itself assuming, that is, that there are no glue starved areas. That's why wetting it out and allowing some time for it to soak in then re-applying the glue can often be not only wise but actually necessary with softwoods.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    ... One of the best knots to know of is the Icicle hitch. It can hold a tapering spar, on the taper, without letting go. No fitting.
    Haven't heard of that one. I'll look it up. It may come in very hand on my balanced lug rig.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    I found it in Brion Toss' Rigging Handbook (page 55).
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 05-11-2021 at 03:59 PM.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    I wouldn't use bought in wood without ensuring a clean surface and for me,just taking a fine shaving off with a hand plane is all it would get.I have yet to have a joint fail because of an excessively smooth surface but grease,wax,silicone and other contaminants may be present on anything you can't vouch for.Straight off the machine ought to be fine even if the machining ripples tend to leave a slightly thicker glue line than I like to see.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    On occasion, wood from the lumber yard is not only nearly polished on the surface, but there are times when it even seems like there might be a bit of some sort of waxy stuff on it as well. I don't know squat about the lumber business and what processes they use, but there is no way I would laminate it without giving the surfaces a quick rub-down with a block and some 80 grit before they get epoxy on them.
    This is often the case. It is not at all uncommon for production S4S lumber to come off the planer/moulder with a glaze. Mostly caused by the fact they don't shut down to change out into blades very often. Not the same protocol as hardwood lumber. So the dull blades pound, compress and polish the surfaces. The duller the blades, the more so. And a good finish carpenter will know this, and plan on sanding before finishing. And... sitting/transport can coat the sticks with dust/road grime if they're not stored/shipped wrapped. And contaminants can get on the surfaces.

    Same applies to prep for epoxy gluing. If it's fresh off your own planer... no problem. If it's softwood dimensional lumber out of some lumberyard. Scuff it first. Belt Sander or R.O. with #80 is fine. Don't need to go overboard... just scuff it a bit.

    And wiz is correct that epoxy will hold up better with a thicker film than with a starved joint. It's the reason I build just the slightest concavity into epoxied scarf joints.
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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post

    One of the best knots to know of is the Icicle hitch. It can hold a tapering spar, on the taper, without letting go. No fitting.

    Apologies for the thread drift, that whetted my curiosity, so here you go. .:

    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    This idea of roughing wooden surfaces prior to gluing seems to get lots of traction. My question is, why? Are there any tests that demonstrate the value of a rough surface over a smooth surface? I don't mean a polished surface but one that is merely machined or sanded. Having been gluing epoxy joints for fifty years without failure attributed to whether the surface is smooth or roughened, I've never seen any benefit to a roughened surface.

    Thinking about the close image of epoxy and wood fiber where the epoxy joint surface has been proven to be stringer than the wood itself, I see no advantage to a rough surface. Some joints may vary from this view but a long grain to long grain joint like a spar is not one of them.

    Finally looking at all the above answers from some who know and use wood and epoxy regularly, I think the most practical answer is clear.
    Last edited by Sandlapper; 05-11-2021 at 08:25 PM.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    The Forest Products Laborabory (FPL) literally wrote the book on the use of wood as an engineering material. You can find it here:

    https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/p...00&header_id=p

    Chapter 10 of this book (Adhesives with Wood Materials), defines the optimum surface for bonding as a planed surface. There's lots of great info here, but in summary:

    "Experience and testing have proven that a smooth, knife-cutsurface is best for bonding. Surfaces made using saws areusually rougher than those made using planers and jointers.However, surfaces sawn with special blades on properly setstraight-line ripsaws are satisfactory for both structural andnonstructural joints. Furniture manufacturers commonly useprecision sawing of wood joints rather than two-step sawing and jointing to reduce costs for labor, equipment, andmaterial. Unless the saws and feed works are well maintained, however, joints made with sawed surfaces will beweaker and less uniform in strength than those made withsharp planer or jointer knives. Dull cutting edges of planeror jointer knives crush and burnish the cells on the woodsurface. Not only are these cells weaker, they also inhibitadhesive wetting and penetration."

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Thanks for all the input. Lots of good insight and experience here (which we all know). I lightly sanded all the surfaces with some 80 grit and wiped them clean. Tomorrow they'll get glued up: boomkin (routed out), sprit for mizzen, and yard.

    IMG_5709.jpg

    IMG_5710.jpg
    IMG_5711.jpg

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    I would never roughen the surfaces prior to gluing with TBIII. The thinner the glue line the better and clamped down like there's no tomorrow. A slick planed surface is optimal.
    I would as Todd has pointed out give lumber yard softwood a quick sand to remove the glaze, especially on pine.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Advice from places like the US Forest Products Laboratory and "Understanding Wood" by Hoadley are trusted sources for information on wood and its uses that can be trusted. Comments by forum members may or may not be worthwhile and should never be taken as gospel. Hoadley's book should be owned by anyone who is serious about getting the best use from their wood as well as the extremely useful material on the effect of shop tools on working wood.

    DeanP, thanks for bringing up the USFPL book to this conversation. I often find it indispensable but unfortunately, many boatbuilders don't know of its existence.
    Last edited by Sandlapper; 05-12-2021 at 07:56 AM.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    The West System User Guide https://www.westsystem.com/wp-conten...anual-2015.pdf recommends 80 grit sanding.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    The West System User Guide https://www.westsystem.com/wp-conten...anual-2015.pdf recommends 80 grit sanding.
    Page 28:

    "3. Sanded—Sand smooth non-porous surfaces—thoroughly abrade the surface(Figure 8). 80-grit aluminum oxide paper will provide a good texture for the epoxy to“key” into. Be sure the surface to be bonded is solid. Remove any flaking, chalking,blistering, or old coating before sanding. Remove all dust after sanding."

    Page 31:

    "Porous Woods—No special preparation needed. If surface is burnished, possibly by dullplaner or saw blades, sand with 80-grit paper to open pores. Remove dust."

    Not sure whether the wood I'm using is non-porous, burnished or what, but it's awfully smooth. Might be unnecessary, but I still can't see the harm in sanding.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by dalekidd View Post
    Page 28:

    "3. Sanded—Sand smooth non-porous surfaces—thoroughly abrade the surface(Figure 8). 80-grit aluminum oxide paper will provide a good texture for the epoxy to“key” into. Be sure the surface to be bonded is solid. Remove any flaking, chalking,blistering, or old coating before sanding. Remove all dust after sanding."

    Page 31:

    "Porous Woods—No special preparation needed. If surface is burnished, possibly by dullplaner or saw blades, sand with 80-grit paper to open pores. Remove dust."

    Not sure whether the wood I'm using is non-porous, burnished or what, but it's awfully smooth. Might be unnecessary, but I still can't see the harm in sanding.
    The wood you are using would be classified 'porous'. Sand.
    David G
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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Porous. Run it thru the planer.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    ....The roughened surfaces are good when glues like Titebond or other carpentry glues are used
    ...
    I dd not think this is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    I would never roughen the surfaces prior to gluing with TBIII. The thinner the glue line the better and clamped down like there's no tomorrow. A slick planed surface is optimal..
    I think this is right.
    Steve Martinsen

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by dalekidd View Post
    I need to laminate 3 pieces of #1 pine to make my yard for the CIY 16. They are 2,1/8" x 3/4" x 10'. This will give me a 10' blank 2,1/8" x 2,1/4". The surface is very smooth (no paint). Should I rough it up a bit with a quick pass of some coarse grit sandpaper before laminating with thickened epoxy?
    Ok, this is something that has been part of my profession, I was a planer moulder salesman and technician for many years, then for my sins quality control moderator for several gluelam plants ensuring that their testing regimes were being properly carried out, and doing random testing of their samples.

    That lumber will have been through a jointed planer matcher, the blades on those are "levelled" with a very soft grindstone on a machine slide so they're all on the same cutting circle, so "rub" as they dont have a clearance angle behind the cutting edge. They tend to polish the surface, closing off the open cells of the wood which is the really nice smooth surface you're seeing.
    It doesnt glue well and the joints so made are prone to failure.

    The best surface for a high strength glue joint is a freshly cut, planed surface, not a sanded or roughened one, so if its a critical joint I'd freshen the surface with a sharp hand plane, or a cabinet scraper. A sander, about 80 grit, would be the next choice, take all of the shine off the material, both faces.

    Note, the giant sanders that finish plywood can do the same, if the grit is getting worn, the sheer horsepower of those machines can still tear the material off but the surface will have been heated enough to cause the lignin to flow and that may close off the cells preventing a good bond. Not common, but it has happened.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    Porous. Run it thru the planer.
    That'd do it.

    But there is one potential problem. He wants 2.25" of laminated thickness. He's 2.125" the other way, so I'm guessing he needs to start with a square blank 2.125". If his nominal 1X stock has actually netted out at .75"... then he can afford to lose approx. 0.125" overall in the cleanup. Four faying surfaces. So... about 1/32" off of each. That's some fussy planer work. Easy to take too much. Better to sand w/#80 (more control, less thickness loss). Or, as John mentions, a hand plane or cabinet scraper (also more control, less loss).

    And... here comes the curveball. The mills that machine dimensional stock are not geared to high levels of precision. Their market, for the most part is not cabinetmakers doing fine joinery. And so they often fudge a but on the thinner side. It's not at all uncommon to see a net thickness of 11/16"... or 23/32"... for S4S 1X stock. Which means you have to be even MORE careful not to end up too thin on the overall glueup.

    Now... he didn't specify, so if what he actually needs is a 2" square starting blank... then all that was just finger exercise.
    Last edited by David G; 05-12-2021 at 11:26 PM.
    David G
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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    That's exactly what I was thinking David, that he want's to net 2 x 2. Nobody would cut and glue up right at 2.125 if that's what they wanted to net, and the 2.25 is just because that's 3 times .75, but your point is well taken.
    Sometimes I assume too much. I know, and that's bad and I'm bad, but I like it that way and it get's the girls.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    That's exactly what I was thinking David, that he want's to net 2 x 2. Nobody would cut and glue up right at 2.125 if that's what they wanted to net, and the 2.25 is just because that's 3 times .75, but your point is well taken.
    Sometimes I assume too much. I know, and that's bad and I'm bad, but I like it that way and it get's the girls.
    Plans call for 2" diameter max on the yard tapering to the ends.

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    That's exactly what I was thinking David, that he want's to net 2 x 2. Nobody would cut and glue up right at 2.125 if that's what they wanted to net, and the 2.25 is just because that's 3 times .75, but your point is well taken.
    Sometimes I assume too much. I know, and that's bad and I'm bad, but I like it that way and it get's the girls.
    I've taught, and been around, enough neophyte builders that I can tell you with no hesitation that such is not an uncommon error. It's why I yelp and yelp about people asking for advice giving us a many even potentially relevant details as possible. One little measurement/sentence (I want to end up with a 2" square blank) would have made all my typing completely unnecessary, and eliminated the ambiguity.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: laminating finished dimensional lumber

    Focus on the good side David, it gave me a chance to show off how I get all the girls, well, that and I take a shower once every week without fail.

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