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Thread: Bad news from Britain

  1. #1
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    Default Bad news from Britain

    Local elections and a by election yesterday.

    The Conservative Party have taken Hartlepool in a by-election. Hartlepool has been Labour since the 1960s. The miasma of scandal and incompetence surrounding the Johnson government has had no effect at all.

    The Tories are still running their culture war over Brexit. It seems to be both fact free and unstoppable.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Andrew, while I am not involved as living out of UK, I tend to see the Torys as the least worse option. Labour is mired in the past and usually mucks up the economy, along with having idiots like Corbyn at the head. I think Boris might have done quite well if Covid had not derailed things and given that most heads of state have not handled things well (mainly because they have to work with changing scientific info) at least the UK is well ahead on vaxxing.

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Andrew - the point that struck me and which I completely failed to get over in my post is one for Democrats in the USA - the sheer power of the “culture war”.
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 05-07-2021 at 03:20 AM.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Andrew - the point that struck me and which I completely failed to get over in my post is one for Democrats in the USA - the sheer power of the “culture war”.
    Oh we know. Here, the republicans have weaponized the issues of
    - race (making whites feel threatened when they are not)
    - religion (making religious feel threatened when they are not)
    - taxes (making workers feel they are overtaxed when they are not, and supporting slashing taxes on the wealthy)
    - guns (making people feel threatened and stating the democrats want to take their guns away, which, unfortunately, they do)
    - environment (making workers feel threatened by anti-pollution laws)

    Please explain the factors in play in the UK, or at least that locality.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    We are all a bunch of racist fascists.

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Speak for yourself

    Did anybody see that bloke on CNN talking about the demograph of the protesters at the Capital? 45% professional/CEOs/unlikely suspects... He was also concerned about the small number of military in the % of Prouds and Oaths.

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    The Labour party have lost the plot..

    They started with using the Republican tactics back in the days of Blair and Brown.
    On the day they arrived at Downing street the "great public crowd" to greet them.. It was a few labour members and paid for actors so they could get the perceived balance of ethnic people correct..

    They then arranged for Scotland to have a parliament.. Scotland being normally Labour voting (that got them a long way).
    Then it was arranged for Wales to have a separate Parliament... Wales normally being Labour Voting
    Then they tried to have a separate Parliament for the north east of England.. Which is... Normally Labour Voting, that got thrown out, the public saw through that one..

    So next they sat on the boundary commission reports , the boundary Commission revises each MP's area so each MP is voted for by roughly the same amount of people.. There has been a gradual move of population from cities to the country side.. Cities are more likely to be Labour voting.. By the time they were kicked out there was estimated to be a bias in favour of Labour by 20 seats..

    So then they got rid of most Hereditary members of the house of Lords, promising an elected house.. Did it happen... No they packed the house with Labour supporters..

    Then came along Corbyn, who ignored the will of the people over the Brexit vote and did everything he could to stop it.. That really irritated many folks.. It irritated me and I voted to stay in..

    Also coming in with multi millionaire Corbyn (who had more private Schooling than Theresa May,) who allowed a lot of very old fashioned class warfare and labour party antisemitism..
    On his front Bench was Diane Abbot , thick as two short planks, far left , anti private schooling for the the public... who sends her own children to a private school (as Corbyn's children did).

    After that has came in SIR Kier Starmer as Labour party leader ... Very ineffectual and unconvincing. Every time time Boris made a covid announcement , Starmer would shout "We need clarity" even when for once, Boris was clear... Many of labour supporters will never have used the word in their lives..

    And finally, Brexit made many former Labour supporters vote Brexit party or Conservative for the first time. They finally realised, just because you work doesn't mean you have to vote Labour..
    Many past Labour voters views are actually further right than the Conservative party (sound familiar in the USA).

    I should add the Conservatives at the moment are probably further left than the Democrats, as Boris pre Covid was promising a return to inclusive centre ground politics. Rather than right wing under Cameron..
    Last edited by The Q; 05-07-2021 at 04:07 AM.
    Just an amateur bodging away..

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    A (possibly) more grounded analysis.
    Former Hartlepool MP Lord Mandelson said it was clear from his conversations with voters in the town that Mr Corbyn was "still casting a very dark cloud over Labour" and that the party had more work to do put that era behind it.
    He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the Hartlepool defeat was down to "two Cs: Covid and Corbyn".




    Labour's loss of Hartlepool in a by-election is the most dramatic illustration yet that the party has so far failed to connect with the Leave-supporting, working class voters they lost heavily in 2017 and 2019.
    Support for the Brexit Party, which registered 26% in Hartlepool in 2019, collapsed - the successor Reform party secured just 1% of the vote.
    It looks as though the Conservatives picked up the Brexit Party's former support, in line with the proportion of Leave voters preferring the Conservatives to Labour to the order of 3/4 to 1.
    However, the swing to the Conservatives of 16% is more than can be accounted for by the collapse of the Brexit Party.
    Labour's vote fell 9 points to 29%, so the party clearly lost some of its 2019 support, as well as suffering from the movement of Brexit Party voters to the Conservatives.
    Part of the explanation may lie in the success of independent candidate, Sam Lee, who won 10% of the vote.
    Together with the pattern in key wards there is clearly a debate about whether Labour can win support from Leave voters by ignoring Brexit as it has in the past 12 months.
    The Conservative gain of Northumberland council is a further illustration of the success of the Conservatives in Leave voting areas.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57019456
    The result was predicted in the run-up to the vote. Talking heads suggesting that Hartlepudlians feel abandoned and that they have missed out from economic recovery due to that neglect. Although blaming Labour for that seems about par for the English Voters as there has been a Tory Government since Brown lost eleven years ago.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Andrew and others, with Brexit done and covid relenting, what are the Tories proposing to do?

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Andrew and others, with Brexit done and covid relenting, what are the Tories proposing to do?
    Brexit is not done yet. The fustercluck is only just beginning.
    As to what the Tories are proposing to do, I doubt that they have a plan apart from appeasing the Little Englanders and their chums in the finance industry
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Andrew and others, with Brexit done and covid relenting, what are the Tories proposing to do?
    Whatever Murdoch wants.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Right wing authoritarian parties on the rise seem to be succeeding by opposing things not proposing things.

    Our Trumpublicans have limited themselves to defending Donald Trump’s emotional state and restricting voting rights. It is a culture war as Andrew suggests about the Tory electorate. So many hurt feelings, fears, and grievances to be mined.

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    How do we turn these grievances (real and imaginary) fears and hurt feelings around and direct them against the likes of Murdoch and the Trumpery?
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    How do we turn these grievances (real and imaginary) fears and hurt feelings around and direct them against the likes of Murdoch and the Trumpery?
    We buckle our seatbelts and get ready to run to the hills with all the books, before the hordes come to sack the place.

    We’ve reached the tipping point. Too late.

    The circle comes around again...

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Andrew and others, with Brexit done and covid relenting, what are the Tories proposing to do?
    S F A.

    That would imply a pre-existing plan - we have no evidence for any such thing beyond Boris' "I want to be King Of The World".


    The truly spellbinding throwaway line in this morning's BBC report on the Hartlepool result was.

    "The last time there was a Tory MP for this town - the average price for a house in England was £3,000"

    That would be 1963/64 - and with current averages closing on £300,000 there might be an interesting question on the nature of inflation - and its measurement.
    Last edited by P.I. Stazzer-Newt; 05-07-2021 at 09:34 AM.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    The Conservative Party have taken Hartlepool in a by-election. Hartlepool has been Labour since the 1960s.
    OK, a question; I know a little about Hartlepool and industrial Teesside in general; my understanding is that it was formerly an area with a lot of heavy industry; steelmaking, chemical plants, that kind of thing, and that most of it is now closed. Sort of like Youngstown Ohio, or Gary Indiana, or Pittsburgh (although Pittsburgh has recovered fairly well from the demise of the local steel and coal industries). Is this accurate? Is this a significant factor in the vote, the formerly-working class who have been negatively affected by modern times turing more nationalist, particularly in economics? Analogies to Trump are all too obvious.

    A song for the occasion, men from Hartlepool IIRC. The last verse was written many years after the first ones.

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    OK, a question; I know a little about Hartlepool and industrial Teesside in general; my understanding is that it was formerly an area with a lot of heavy industry; steelmaking, chemical plants, that kind of thing, and that most of it is now closed. Sort of like Youngstown Ohio, or Gary Indiana, or Pittsburgh (although Pittsburgh has recovered fairly well from the demise of the local steel and coal industries). Is this accurate? Is this a significant factor in the vote, the formerly-working class who have been negatively affected by modern times turing more nationalist, particularly in economics? Analogies to Trump are all too obvious.

    A song for the occasion, men from Hartlepool IIRC. The last verse was written many years after the first ones.

    That is the usual explanation, yes.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    I do not know how Left leaning political parties are going to be able to sell depopulation agendas. That Conservative party seat gain in Britain caught my eye, as did the Texas Congressional seat runoff where the traditionally Democrat district ended up having both leaders in the run off election being Republican. The Left has all this Rockefeller and new Robber Baron tech monopolists' money, but can't even come up with a political pitch where the future has people in it, much less jobs or a fairer distribution of wealth and land. The "Build Back Better" vision of the World Economic Forum Nazis the Left is trying to sell is no one but the top 1% will have property or a life. No wonder their traditional voters aren't coming out for their well funded candidates. Makes one miss the Old Left's égalité and fraternité...
    "Deconstruction is not a method, and cannot be transformed into one" Jacques Derrida (1930–2004)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    That is the usual explanation, yes.
    Do you think it's correct?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    S F A.

    That would imply a pre-existing plan - we have no evidence for any such thing beyond Boris' "I want to be King Of The World".


    The truly spellbinding throwaway line in this morning's BBC report on the Hartlepool result was.

    "The last time there was a Tory MP for this town - the average price for a house in England was £3,000"

    That would be 1963/64 - and with current averages closing on £300,000 there might be an interesting question on the nature of inflation - and its measurement.
    That inflation is mostly down to Maggie causing a housing shortage with her "Right to Buy" policy and banning Councils from building replacement social housing stock.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Do you think it's correct?
    See post #8 above.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    This is a Facebook post; if it can be read it will explain a great deal:

    https://fb.watch/5mCaNh1vkp/

    The two gentlemen are explaining why they voted Conservative - because Labour did nothing for Hartlepool and the town lost services including its hospital and its police station.

    This happened over the past ten years. During that time Britain has had a Conservative government.

    The citizens of Hartlepool once hanged a monkey because it would not speak English.

    This being the WBF, this is the ship on which the interview is taking place. HMS Trincomalee. She wasn’t built in Hartlepool... she wasn’t kept in Hartlepool and she wasn’t restored in Hartlepool. She was just put there because They had nothing to do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Trincomalee
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 05-08-2021 at 02:24 PM.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That inflation is mostly down to Maggie causing a housing shortage with her "Right to Buy" policy and banning Councils from building replacement social housing stock.
    She has been a convenient scapegoat for the better part of thirty years - during which time no government has done anything to fix the problem - and it has been greatly exacerbated by the rule changes introduced by Brown in '97 and continued by every chancellor since.


    Young Sturgeon is going well. - Give Berwick back to Berwickshire!
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

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    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    She has been a convenient scapegoat for the better part of thirty years - during which time no government has done anything to fix the problem - and it has been greatly exacerbated by the rule changes introduced by Brown in '97 and continued by every chancellor since.


    Young Sturgeon is going well. - Give Berwick back to Berwickshire!
    That is a feature of Whitehall. If one department thinks up a policy that for instance causes redundancies, they don't take any responsibility for the effects, sorting that out is the responsibility of the ministry two doors down, not theirs.
    Much the same as maggie locking people in to p[lace with the Right to Buy small print, when Norman Tebbit was telling those who were losing their jobs to do as his dad did, Get on their bikes and go somewhere else in search of work. Compartmentalised thinking and the law of unintended consequences.
    That and a habit of kicking the can down the road until it gets so bad that the politicians are forced to do something about it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    Young Sturgeon is going well. - Give Berwick back to Berwickshire!
    I have a friend who was born there and who strongly endorses that idea.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    This is a Facebook post; if it can be read it will explain a great deal:

    https://fb.watch/5mCaNh1vkp/

    The two gentlemen are explaining why they voted Conservative - because Labour did nothing for Hartlepool and the town lost services including its hospital and its police station.

    This happened over the past ten years. During that time Britain has had a Conservative government.

    The citizens of Hartlepool once hanged a monkey because it would not speak English.

    This being the WBF, this is the ship on which the interview is taking place. HMS Trincomalee. She wasn’t built in Hartlepool... she wasn’t kept in Hartlepool and she wasn’t restored in Hartlepool. She was just put there because They had nothing to do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Trincomalee
    From a distance, viewed through an American mirror, it seems like Labour focused more on liberal urbanite interests than working people’s interests. That is certainly true of the American Democratic Party.

    The percentage of white working class men voting Democratic increased from 23% in 2016 to 28% in 2020, while among white working class women, support for Democrats increased from 34%to 36%.
    From this excellent article: https://hbr.org/2020/11/how-biden-wo...-working-class

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by artif View Post
    From a disinterested UK residents point of view.
    I'd never vote for the tories (couldn't lie straight in bed). And Labour are a bunch of disorganised halfwits (couldn't run a bath).
    Which leaves very little in the way of a viable option to vote for.
    My local area have voted tory again, despite the long history of corruption and backhanders. Labour come across as a poor choice on all counts, a bit like a used tea bag.
    Time to ditch party (tribal) politics and vote on individuals for the posts available, wouldn't be difficult current technology.
    If you are looking at Town and County Councils, the Liberals always used to make excellent Councillors
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Well, the news isn't all bad.

    scotlandfinal.jpg



    Andy
    "In case of fire ring Fellside 75..."

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Indeed not. The North British are fine! 8 Scots Greens plus the SNP is the majority we need.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Fighting the good fight on Thursday. Me on the left with our (now) new MSP Neil Gray ... He stood down as an MP at Westminster to run in this election, so we've a by-election this Thursday. Could be interesting ... Will everybody not voting SNP hold their noses in the polling booths long enough to try to squeeze Labour in? The town, incidentally, was in constituencies that voted Labour without a break from 1935 to 2011. 76 years of weighing the ballot papers!

    183077174_4306442202733263_8920939017492016149_n.jpg

    Andy, currently surrounded by a sea of yellow.
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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    I doubt it. I think you will be safe enough.

    Incidentally, think you are better off without Craig Murray. I can’t quite put my finger on why I say that - some of his actions have been admirable, but he seems a bit too full of himself.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Murray? I'm no fan. We find out on Tuesday if it's prison or a fine for the charge of contempt wrt the Salmond case.

    Andy
    "In case of fire ring Fellside 75..."

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    Default Re: Bad news from Britain

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    Well, the news isn't all bad.

    scotlandfinal.jpg

    Andy
    I know nothing of English politics and less of Scottish. The Landrith family tree books show Southern Scotland and Berwick-upon-Tweed in England. I see from your map the Blue (and in the USA we use Red) are my people! https://www.northumberlandconservatives.org.uk
    "Deconstruction is not a method, and cannot be transformed into one" Jacques Derrida (1930–2004)

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    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    From a distance, viewed through an American mirror, it seems like Labour focused more on liberal urbanite interests than working people’s interests. That is certainly true of the American Democratic Party.
    Labour MP Khalid Mahmood resigned from Labour's front bench on Friday.
    In an article for thinktank Policy Exchange, the MP for Birmingham Perry Barr said: “Labour has lost touch with ordinary British people. A London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party.
    “They mean well, of course, but their politics – obsessed with identity, division and even tech utopianism – have more in common with those of Californian high society than the kind of people who voted in Hartlepool yesterday.”
    More here https://www.theguardian.com/politics...london-centric

    Even Andy Burnham agreed with the London-centric comment.

    The Labour Party needs to define what it stands for, what's it's policies are and communicate them clearly and simply to the electorate if it is to win power again.

    Nick

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