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Thread: Help wanted, a common theme.

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Originally Posted by StevenBauer

    That would be deducted before calculating profit, no
    ?

    Well, I suppose accounting methods can vary. Be happy to have a real pro number-cruncher chime in. There may be tax reasons, for example, for using different methods.

    How I do it and have done it, basically, subtract expenses and overhead from money we made. That's net profit. Part of that gets retained and reinvested. ("reinvested income"). This becomes part of the cost basis, as I understand it.

    Also, owner's salary/ draw comes from profit not expenses. Right?

    Much also depends upon how the entity is organized ( S-corp, sole proprietorship, C-Corp, etc)

    Kevin

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  2. #72
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Interesting--is that standard practice to NOT count the owners' salary as an expense? I would have thought is IS an expense, but I know very little (or less) about how businesses run. It also makes sense to call it "profit," I suppose.

    I also think it doesn't really matter ALL that much whether your reinvestment is thought of as coming from "profit" or from "expense." As long as you have significant worker representation on the corporate board (as Germany does, for example, with excellent results), workers then have a voice in deciding how much to re-invest. Anything that gets reinvested at least theoretically benefits them, as well.

    But whatever profit is left after the reinvestment? Yep, I'd like to see that split 60-40 between investors and employees (in addition to their wages).

    Tom
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  3. #73
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Interesting--is that standard practice to NOT count the owners' salary as an expense? I would have thought is IS an expense, but I know very little (or less) about how businesses run. It also makes sense to call it "profit," I suppose.

    I also think it doesn't really matter ALL that much whether your reinvestment is thought of as coming from "profit" or from "expense." As long as you have significant worker representation on the corporate board (as Germany does, for example, with excellent results), workers then have a voice in deciding how much to re-invest. Anything that gets reinvested at least theoretically benefits them, as well.

    But whatever profit is left after the reinvestment? Yep, I'd like to see that split 60-40 between investors and employees (in addition to their wages).
    There is accounting and then there is tax accounting. For tax purposes owners are required to take a reasonable salary. That seems reasonable for general accounting also. An owner who does actual work certainly earned something. So one could count at least some of an owner's income as salary.

    I see you don't count an increase in the value of a business as "profit" to an owner. Amazon or Tesla the owners have made enough "profit" from the increase in the value of the business to dwarf whatever their share of the company "profit" might be.
    Life is complex.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    or, biden's goddamn welfare program pays too well
    Yea, does it take a rocket scientist to figure out if people make more money by not working they're looking for a job, a few states have figured it out and are making changes.
    From hotels to restaurants there may be more customers but there aren't always enough workers.
    Some have pointed to pandemic unemployment benefits as a possible deterrent.
    Now, 2 states are cutting off those benefits early.
    Montana's governor made the announcement earlier this week.
    South Carolina's governor followed suit yesterday saying the benefits take away the incentive to go back to work.
    Other states could end up doing the same thing.
    Taking part in the pandemic unemployment benefits programs is a state decision.

    And Florida.

    2 states cut off pandemic unemployment benefits early (ktnv.com)




  5. #75
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    I can’t choose what the waitstaff is paid where I dine.
    But I can tip 25% or more.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    Yea, does it take a rocket scientist to figure out if people make more money by not working they're looking for a job, a few states have figured it out and are making changes.
    It's even easier to figure out that, if an industry is having trouble filling jobs both BEFORE and during a pandemic, they might need to offer better wages, benefits, and working conditions to attract workers.

    Tom
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    It's even easier to figure out that, if an industry is having trouble filling jobs both BEFORE and during a pandemic, they might need to offer better wages, benefits, and working conditions to attract workers.
    But it is difficult to do.
    Life is complex.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    But it is difficult to do.
    For small businesses, yes. Quite difficult.

    For Jeff Bezos et al., not so much.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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  9. #79
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    The NYTs this week twice reported on the declining population and how reliant we are on immigrants for certain jobs. I think this has more to do with our labor shortage than generous covid benefits
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  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    It's even easier to figure out that, if an industry is having trouble filling jobs both BEFORE and during a pandemic, they might need to offer better wages, benefits, and working conditions to attract workers.

    Tom


    I think that's the point of the OP. This dilemma was not as prevalent pre covid.


    Kevin


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  11. #81
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Except it was.
    Not according to the small business owners I’ve spoken to.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  12. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    Not according to the small business owners I’ve spoken to.


    I can second that statement.

    Kevin


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  13. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    It's even easier to figure out that, if an industry is having trouble filling jobs both BEFORE and during a pandemic, they might need to offer better wages, benefits, and working conditions to attract workers.

    Tom

    You mean . . . Let free market capitalism do what it theoretically should do, and respond to market pressure?

    LOL.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    Not according to the small business owners I’ve spoken to.
    I'm an employer. I've had no trouble hiring staff. I used to pay more than minimum wage, but now the minimum wage in Seattle is $16.69, so I pay that.

    Not only do I have no trouble hiring staff, I let people volunteer, and they do. That's how nice it is to work for me

    During the reign of Edward VI, the poor laws imposed the death penalty for not working. recurring incidents of the plague meant England had a shortage or labor (or as they would say, labour) and if you raised wages too high, there would be no surplus for the landlord to claim. The English eventually solved the problem by raising ages until the population grew back, but the Russians solved the problem by turning peasants into serfs.

    http://booksellersvsbestsellers.blog...make-poor.html

    http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Domar1970.pdf

    Either way, there are huge changes to your society if the labor shortage lasts long enough.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    There's some 'interesting' attitudes displayed in this thread……
    Tipping should be just that, not a substitute for a living wage in a business that is in fact unsustainable except by abusing it's employees.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    If I went to a restaurant and they explained that all the prices went up 20% in exchange for not tipping the staff, I would be very happy with that, as long as the staff if actually getting all that cash. I have always been a good tipper, I spent a few years working that side of the business, but I can also remember people just leaving their change rather than a dedicated tip.

    As for help wanted. One of my neighbors worked for Wawa (a convenience store in these parts) and he just quit. They cut back on staff at the start of the pandemic and never hired more as business increased, they would rather just work everyone to death with mandatory OT. After a year of working 50 to 60 hours a week, he burned out. One of the wawas two towns down closed due to a lack of staff. I doubt they will reopen it.
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  17. #87
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    The problem looks simple: we live in "service-based" economies, and people want affordable services. Ergo, service wages will be low.

    Wages in other sectors of the econo
    my rise with rising productivity. You can't increase the productivity of a waiter, or hairdresser, or app driver.

    We can and will replace the
    m with robots, and then they will get no wage at all.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    For small businesses, yes. Quite difficult.

    For Jeff Bezos et al., not so much.
    Amazon just announced a raise for its workers. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/28/amaz...3-an-hour.html

    While I believe in a starting wage well above the minimum wage, it is often difficult to justify paying that when many jobs can be automated. And when there is a long line of individuals willing to work despite the low wages.

    I am happy to see a shortage of workers. That indicates that the labor market is changing. Perhaps for the better.
    Life is complex.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    well that settles it

    it’s like talking to a post. Ui doesn’t cover this, but y’all inside it does.
    Listening to that ultra conservative news outlet NPR this morning. They were interviewing a restaurant owner in that bastion of right wingedness, Ashville, NC. She said they, and many other businesses were unable to fill positions despite paying WELL above minimum hourly. All the establishments she new of were hiring. She was actually shortening business hours due to a shortage of workers.
    So how are all these people not working making rent? How are they buying groceries, paying for cel phones etc if they aren’t working?

    Darn that NPR, spreading that right wing conspiracy theory.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    There's some 'interesting' attitudes displayed in this thread……
    Tipping should be just that, not a substitute for a living wage in a business that is in fact unsustainable except by abusing it's employees.
    I used to just leave the change. But my attitude has changed.

    Now, I am more than willing to leave rather large tips. I would like others to have an enjoyable life. And not have to work hard.
    Life is complex.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. Tipped minimum wage is $2.13 an hour. Many states and cities have higher minimum wages, but if you live where the federal minimum applies, would you risk covid for those wages?

    There is a thing in economics called the reserve wage, which is the minimum wage at which a worker would be willing to accept a certain type of job. The federal minimums are set well below the current reserve rate. You can solve that problem by making people more miserable, or by raising the wage. Sometimes the business won't be profitable if you raise the wage, which seems to be the problem in many of these cases. My experience of running a business in a city with a high minimum wage is that as the minimum wage goes up, you have customers with more money.

    That's something no individual business can deal with. If you pay more than the other guy, often that just means your costs are higher. Raising the minimum wage means all businesses are paying at least that much, which makes it easier to adapt to the higher wage cost.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Help wanted eh? The minimum wage for "tipped" workers is really pathetic
    Those wonderful southern states at large pay $2.13 an hour

    Does anyone except their employers think they could live on $85 a week? WTF?

    My wife worked as a waitress for a long time before I met her. She would come home from work, count her tips and cry. Maybe 8-10 bucks? It was a hand to mouth existence and then one of her children needed orthopedic shoes, or go around lame for the rest of her life. Life is hell for a lot of humans.
    It takes a special kind of compassion to serve "pain customers" with a smile and cajole then out of a buck or starve. Akin to begging, it is demeaning at best and it wouldn't take much (a pandemic) to persuade them to take another line of work, like prostitution or shoe shining maybe.

    Wages by state listed here: https://www.minimum-wage.org/tipped

  23. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Help wanted eh? The minimum wage for "tipped" workers is really pathetic
    Those wonderful southern states at large pay $2.13 an hour

    Does anyone except their employers think they could live on $85 a week? WTF?[/URL]
    Here in Seattle, wait staff make minimum wage ($16.69? per hour). . . And they they are tipped.

    One can make a quite decent wage as a waiter in Seattle.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  24. #94

    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    What I can't figure is this: At $15 an hour, the all in labor rate is somewhere around $25 an hour. What kind of work are businesses in where an employee can't create $25.00 of value in an hour? Perhaps those businesses shouldn't be in business?

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Exactly Mike, and what canoeyawl said in #98.

    a 'business' that only survives because the pay sh.. is not a viable business. But there are those that pay sh.. and make a motza, some humans are like that

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.


  27. #97
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Here in Seattle, wait staff make minimum wage ($16.69? per hour). . . And they they are tipped.

    One can make a quite decent wage as a waiter in Seattle.
    Minimum wage in Washington is $12.00 per hour.
    So $500 a week. Not enough to invest in a home. About half of that would have to go toward rent.

    When I first entered the workforce here, a house could be bought by any blue collar worker. Those that did (and stayed in it) made a very good investment. Inflation in housing for whatever reason (I blame the defense dept) has made that the impossible dream here in California.

  28. #98
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    Default Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Minimum wage in Washington is $12.00 per hour.
    So $500 a week. Not enough to invest in a home. About half of that would have to go toward rent.

    When I first entered the workforce here, a house could be bought by any blue collar worker. Those that did (and stayed in it) made a very good investment. Inflation in housing for whatever reason (I blame the defense dept) has made that the impossible dream here in California.

    Minimum wage in Seattle isthe $16+/hour I quoted.

    [lots of business owners unhappy about it. Oddly, it hasn't hurt business. But it does lower their margins ... marginally]

    Waitrons can actually make a good living in Seattle.

    Working month is 21 days. at Seattle's minimum wage, that's $28,00/month, $33,600 per year. Add in north of 15% of your gross in tips, you're doing well. Especially if you can sell high-end hootch.

    It is remarkably easy in Seattle, for two people to go out to dinner, and burn well north of $100 for the privilege. It is remarkably easy to do that simply by going out for cocktails, without breathing hard.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  29. #99
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    Servers and bartenders in NY certainly make a good living. High five figures is common. Plus, a high percentage of tips are in cash.

    Kevin


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  30. #100
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    Having taken unemployment twice in my career, I tend to agree with that. Even now, with unemployment paying an extra $300 per month in Wisconsin because of COVID-19, that's a max of $500 per week or so, so maybe $13/hour. But the extra $300 runs out at the end of August, I think.

    Now, when those low-paying jobs are also high-stress, and high-risk COVID-19-wise...

    Tom
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  31. #101
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Servers and bartenders in NY certainly make a good living. High five figures is common. Plus, a high percentage of tips are in cash.

    Kevin
    Implying "tax-free"? Tips are taxable income.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  32. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Implying "tax-free"? Tips are taxable income.

    Tom


    Most people don't report tips. C'mon.

    Kevin


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  33. #103
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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Most people don't report tips. C'mon.

    Kevin
    My sister was a waiter for years. She did. I report all my income, even casual freelancing gigs that would be easy to avoid reporting. I also wonder what the IRS does when someone reports working in a tipped job, and reports $4,430.40 in income for a full-time year (minimum wage for wait staff without tips in Wisconsin).

    But you may be right, I suppose. It would be interesting to see if there's any evidence one way or another. I'd like to believe that many people are honest.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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  34. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Most restaurants people pay by card now, tips are all there and recorded.

    People who like their servers tip in cash.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    My sister was a waiter for years. She did. I report all my income, even casual freelancing gigs that would be easy to avoid reporting. I also wonder what the IRS does when someone reports working in a tipped job, and reports $4,430.40 in income for a full-time year (minimum wage for wait staff without tips in Wisconsin).

    Waiters have taxes withheld on their wages, and on 10% of their gross sales as assumed tips. As a friend of mine put it, "if I can't do way better than 10% of my gross in tips, I shouldn't be in this job."
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Help wanted, a common theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Most people don't report tips. C'mon.

    Kevin


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    Cash - maybe not. CC sales (which is most nowadays) are tracked & don't report them at your peril. The IRS would much rather go after a single mom waiting tables than a corporation.

    This is why I still use cash.
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