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Thread: Constructive shaming

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Ah, skepticism of authorities.

    There is a difference between uncritically accepting the judgment of non-experts in positions of authority, i.e. politicians, and the judgments of experts in their areas of authority.

    The wave of authoritarian movements around the globe want us to doubt true experts so the proclamations of authorities can’t be questioned. And we’re seeing that play out in the tussle over vaccines.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam F View Post
    I have almost certainly had it - and it wasn't rough at all.
    gfy
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Nah, not skepticism of authority, just a narcissist looking for attention.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam F View Post
    Andrew, remember the Gulf of Tonkin incident? That's where it started for me.
    It never happened. How many people died, how much societal damage started with that lie?
    Sam, I do remember the Gulf of Tonkin incident. I was not able to understand it at the time (I was 11) and I am a bit vague about it even now. But I don’t think that very many of the people who now protest their mistrust in our Governments trace their mistrust to August 1964. I think most of them were not yet born but have been exposed to a barrage of untruths from radio shock jocks, from newspapers and television stations owned by the Dirty Digger, and by Trumpery in all its forms.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    OK, thanks to China COVID-99 or something is probably here to stay, but...
    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    We won't reach herd immunity - because approx. 30% of the population is unwilling to be vaccinated, for a variety of reasons. The initial estimations of number to be vaxxed, to reach herd immunity, were based on the original virus. That has been supplanted by newer, more contagious, more virulent varieties - and because of those features, the 'number needed' has risen considerably. Anticipate this to become a chronic, simmering problem, with upticks and ongoing need for a mask.
    Let's see if I have this right George:
    - 30% of the population won't take the vaccine. If vaccines and the masks work - why do you care?
    - More contagious versions of the virus are out there. (And yet I read that experts say the natural trajectory of viruses is to become less lethal)
    - Natural immunity won't protect against the other versions, but vaccines do? Because big pharma knows what viral mutations will occur and have anticipated them in the vaccines?
    - the unvaxxed 30% will never become immune no matter how often they're exposed to the virus and it's variants, but the vaccinated are immune to any and all variants? And Darwin is suspended because those 30% won't die of the disease. They remain a threat simply because they won't die. But the vaccinated are immune and that's why they care about those 30% who won't die of the virus no matter what.

    Is that really what you mean to say?

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Lies and bull****.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Sam, I do remember the Gulf of Tonkin incident. I was not able to understand it at the time (I was 11) and I am a bit vague about it even now. But I don’t think that very many of the people who now protest their mistrust in our Governments trace their mistrust to August 1964. I think most of them were not yet born but have been exposed to a barrage of untruths from radio shock jocks, from newspapers and television stations owned by the Dirty Digger, and by Trumpery in all its forms.
    I said that started it for me. Not for anyone else. I was a kid at the time too and didn't find out it was a lie until many years later. Lots of people have other "trigger incidents".
    For quite a few, it was the cherubic Dr. Fauci lying about masks from the outset. For others it's the more than a year long shutdown of "two weeks to flatten the curve."
    Thousands of young people were suckered into "get a college degree to get a good job" and were thus introduced to lifelong debt with no job to get out from under it*.
    Frankly, the real mystery here is why anyone would believe a single thing any authority tells them.

    *I well remember my college English professor (a very smart man), telling me in the 1970's how they were turning out way too many English grads for the available jobs.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Hehehe.... Dr. Makary... surgeon. Not much with the bonefides, eh?

    Ah well... when you have an agenda, any port in a storm! (mixing my mety's up for ya)
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Ah, an agenda-based argument - always entertaining.

    Bottom line - SamF is wrong (and partisan) on this - and nothing anyone, including actual infectious disease experts, says will sway him. I don't care - but it's critical that this 'line of reasoning' is exposed for what it is.

    I've 'lost' a few pt's the past few weeks, over this - one's that become irate when they learn I'm 'pro-vax', and by extension 'not a trumper'. A few have even complained to our administrator, trying to bully me/get me 'into trouble'. The look of consternation on their face when our administrator informs them that I'm the owner, he's the employee, is priceless (or so he says!). I'm fortunate, in some ways - I'm old enough/secure enough to retire whenever I want; I don't care if I'm seeing a full slate every day; and when this 'job' is no longer fun/enjoyable - I can/will walk away, no problem. Makes one a bit 'bullet-proof', I guess - and much less willing to suffer the abuse of fools.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Now, think critically, what is different about the Covid-19 situation than the natural trajectory of pathogens?

    What is the process by which the virulence of pathogens becomes attenuated?
    Oh, I get it. COVID-19 isn't natural. Right?

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Ah, an agenda-based argument - always entertaining.

    Bottom line - SamF is wrong (and partisan) on this - and nothing anyone, including actual infectious disease experts, says will sway him. I don't care - but it's critical that this 'line of reasoning' is exposed for what it is.

    I've 'lost' a few pt's the past few weeks, over this - one's that become irate when they learn I'm 'pro-vax', and by extension 'not a trumper'. A few have even complained to our administrator, trying to bully me/get me 'into trouble'. The look of consternation on their face when our administrator informs them that I'm the owner, he's the employee, is priceless (or so he says!). I'm fortunate, in some ways - I'm old enough/secure enough to retire whenever I want; I don't care if I'm seeing a full slate every day; and when this 'job' is no longer fun/enjoyable - I can/will walk away, no problem. Makes one a bit 'bullet-proof', I guess - and much less willing to suffer the abuse of fools.
    Not an answer George. Want to try again please?
    And ONCE AGAIN, I am not anti-vax. I am skeptical of the pronouncements of self-serving authorities... anybody notice the billions in profits big pharma has made already from this? For products so ineffective that you still need to wear a mask after getting it.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    I rather enjoyed this bit:
    “As more people have been infected, most of whom have mild or no symptoms, there are fewer Americans left to be infected,” Dr. Makary writes. “At the current trajectory, I expect Covid will be mostly gone by April, allowing Americans to resume normal life.”


    So our Verify team asked four infectious disease specialists with decades of experience if Dr. Makary is right. All of them disagree with his timeline and, in some cases, question his logic.


    Dr. Makary declined our interview request for this story.

    BTW.... this story is from February. They've learned a bit more since then. Wonder if 'Dr. Makary' holds the same view?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Sorry, Sammy - I don't 'jump' when you holler. Keep on hollering!
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    But, you have linked to a surgeon from Johns Hopkins, plus another study, without the slightest skepticism.

    Why is your skepticism one-sided?
    Pointing to contradictions in the official narrative is cause for increased skepticism.
    Really? You can't figure out how that works?

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    No. That wasn't my point at all.

    Covid-19 is natural, but the fight to contain it is 21st century, not 10,000 years ago.

    For example, we are attempting to achieve herd immunity using a vaccine, whereas the textbook dogma of attenuation of virulence of a pathogen assumes no public health intervention.
    No, no, no.... Sammy is right. We should follow the guidelines of the 1919 Spanish flu.... that 'natural immunity' worked out purty well!
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Disingenuous.

    The reasons for wearing a mask after receiving the vaccine have nothing to do with its extraordinary effectiveness.
    Oh! Do tell... "splain it please.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Ya'know.... he's 'doing it again'..... anything to keep the argument going. Disingenuous, indeed!
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    No, no, no.... Sammy is right. We should follow the guidelines of the 1919 Spanish flu.... that 'natural immunity' worked out purty well!
    "Sam is wrong" is not an answer. The ball is in your court.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Hey Sam F, George is an MD, do you also argue with your doctor relentlessly when he says that you have a heart arrhythmia?

    Or is this a political argument here, rather than medical, and thus your level of education is equal to his?
    No heart arrhythmia. I have often argued with my doctor over his prescriptions. Like the one that put me in the ER due to symptoms of a heart attack.
    And the other one that gives me a sinus infection within two weeks - every time.
    And the other one that cause pain in places that I didn't even know could hurt.
    And...
    you get the picture (or any sane person would), the fact is that if you don't take control of your own health and only rely on a doctor, you're not doing it right.


    Then there's the old lady whose doctor advised her to go off all her medications. Within a week she was dead. No matter the doc was also the county's medical examiner... "death from natural causes".
    added: ...leaving her stroke crippled husband to fend for himself alone.
    Last edited by Sam F; 05-05-2021 at 09:41 AM.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    ...

    We are now getting data on its effectiveness in preventing transmission of the virus.

    We have not reached herd immunity in vaccination.

    Until then, it is best for vaccinated people to wear masks in public.

    Please respond.
    You just contradicted yourself.
    The vaccine demonstrates "effectiveness in preventing transmission of the virus".
    ..."it is best for vaccinated people to wear masks in public."

    So the only conclusion one can reach while accepting your statement as true is that the vaccine doesn't work to prevent transmission.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post

    Please respond.
    some kind of masochist?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Ah doctors! What wonderful people they are. But... according to pubmed.gov
    Recent studies of medical errors have estimated errors may account for as many as 251,000 deaths annually in the United States (U.S)., making medical errors the third leading cause of death.
    And we're supposed to accept their recommendations uncritically? What chumps you are!

    More:
    Error rates are significantly higher in the U.S. than in other developed countries such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and the United Kingdom (U.K). At the same time less than 10 percent of medical errors are reported.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Is anyone curious about how the Dark Ages got rolling?
    I'm not. . .

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Sam, I am a Liberal; that is to say, I find JS Mill’s book “On Liberty”, published in London in 1850, a useful guide to conduct. I therefore consider that “the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant ... Over himself, over his body and mind, the individual is sovereign”.

    Which means that so far as I am concerned you are at liberty to dispense entirely with the services of the medical profession, if you so wish.

    By the same token, you are not at Liberty to spread Covid19. So you must continue to wear a mask and distance yourself from others.

    Thank you.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    I've 'lost' a few pt's the past few weeks, over this - one's that become irate when they learn I'm 'pro-vax', and by extension 'not a trumper'. A few have even complained to our administrator, trying to bully me/get me 'into trouble'. The look of consternation on their face when our administrator informs them that I'm the owner, he's the employee, is priceless (or so he says!).
    This is my favorite post on the thread--reminds me of my dad.

    He and my mom owned and ran an motor repair/residential & commercial wiring business for almost 40 years. Probably had about 35 employees or so.

    There's an old newspaper clipping from the grand opening of his new shop (after a fire in the old one, and also after he expanded the business to installing automatic milking machines as well). In that photo, there are a couple of bankers in suits, my dad's office manager (also in a suit), the foreman of the outside crews (also in a suit), and some old guy in grubby green overalls and grease-stained hands.... My dad.

    He spent his days, by choice, working in the motor repair shop, with NPR playing (something his employees usually hated at first, but once they realized how smart some of the programming was, came to appreciate). In fact, I was introduced to the music of Dizzy Gillespie on NPR at my dad's shop.

    Sometimes I have to wonder, why in the world am I not working as my own boss?

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    S#it Yea

    I just shammed my daughter ( hippyish antivaccer ) into going on the CVS website and scheduling an appointment. She's going Friday.

    I just sent out a group text for all Groom Service staff

    "Are you or have you been vaccinated? I’m trying to update our corporate Covid protocol and CVS is now offing it free all you have to do is register on www.cvs.com if there is ANY expense associated with getting a vaccine I will cover it, so you have no excuse"

    I'm happy to say everyone is getting vaccinated
    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Maybe, something must be wrong with me, in that I repeatedly try to use sunlight as a disinfectant of ignorance, with zero effect.
    Sadly, in this case the person you are debating is an unabashed damned fool, which is why your arguments have zero effect.

    Jeff C

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Some people are incapable of feeling shame, others psychologically unable to acknowledge when they are feeling it.

    Must be exhausting.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Maybe, something must be wrong with me, in that I repeatedly try to use sunlight as a disinfectant of ignorance, with zero effect.
    sam represents a special kind of ignorance, on two levels. . .

    willfully, and gleefully contrarian

    i don't think you can reach him through normal methods

    somebody close to him will have to die from the virus to open a wedge in his mind

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    My friend’s Uncle is a Shaman, and I keep reading these titles as “Shaman”.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    My younger brother has life-long loved to take inane stances for the sake of argument. One time* when we were both in our early twenties I shoved him backward in the living room, shouting, 'That's Lamarckian bull****!' and he lost his footing and broke a window. His reply was, 'Who is this Lamarck fellow, I'd like to read his work.' About that time he argued that the right to property was a natural law.


    *no, Pless, no
    Hahaha.... one of my son-in-laws is too smart by half, and LOVES to 'debate' - anything/everything. He's not mean about it - and will argue whichever side you are not. He just loves the challenge. But... if you're not 'holding up' your end of the bargain - he'll jump in there, too - essentially debating himself. Damnedest thing I've seen!

    *I threw my brother partways through a window, once, while 'rough housing' - we both froze for only a moment, knowing the wrath of dad was about to descend upon us. So of course... we both sprinted for the door, unfortunately holding each other back in our desperation to escape. The old man damn near caught us, too. But once we hit open space, he had no chance. We were severely motivated! Hid up the hill, in the cornfield, for hours, until mom hollered out to us 'coast is clear - he's 'over' it!'.

    Good times.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Is he constructive?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Is he constructive?

    You'll need to be more specific - 'who you talking to'?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    You'll need to be more specific - 'who you talking to'?
    Oh, I was thinking of Rob's neighbour the Shaman. There are actual Shaman guys, who can be quite constructive in that frame of being ... and then the other kind. Several other kinds, actually.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam F View Post
    Ah doctors! What wonderful people they are. But... according to pubmed.gov

    And we're supposed to accept their recommendations uncritically? What chumps you are!
    Exactly the correct term, Chump

    "As more people have been infected, most of whom have mild or no symptoms, there are fewer Americans left to be infected,” Dr. Makary writes. “At the current trajectory, I expect Covid will be mostly gone by April, allowing Americans to resume normal life.”

    So our Verify team asked four infectious disease specialists with decades of experience if Dr. Makary is right. All of them disagree with his timeline and, in some cases, question his logic.

    Dr. Makary declined our interview request for this story."


    Sam is only trying to implement herd immunity as soon as possible by infecting everyone he comes close to. Give him a break!

    Wait, gone by April? There were 50,000 cases in the US yesterday, so something is wrong, obviously there can't be that many cases...

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