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Thread: Constructive shaming

  1. #386
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Good grief. Influenza routinely moves between birds, pigs, and humans. New variants come from Asia where domestic waterfowl, pigs and people live in close proximity at scale. This happens every year. Sure, a coronavirus escaping from a lab is a much more likely mechanism. (Roll eyes emoji here.)
    Oh, but random operation of natural forces isn't nearly so satisfying to the human mind. There's no villian to blame (since for the religious to blame God is inconceivable, and blaming the devil is out of fashion), it doesn't feed people's fear of science and technology, and it's frightening because similar things could happen in the future, beyond our control. Blaming the Chinese feels far more reassuring than 'sh!t happens'. And the plague was caused by the Jews poisoning the wells.


    FWIW, the 1918 flu probably jumped from birds to humans somewhere in rural Kansas.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  2. #387
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    A doctor on TV tonight said he doesn't think we (the US) will ever reach the level of heard immunity. Why? It's all about the numbers, the number of vaccinations.

    So I'm raising the question "Is there such a thing as constructive shaming?"

    "Of course not!" you say.

    Okay, let's talk it out.

    You wear your mask, you get vaccinated, you do the things that keep other people safe. Then along comes the anti-vaccine, anti-mask, we want to party and go to football games crowd.

    What do you do? Do you quietly reason with them? They don't listen. You talk and they shout. You control your temper and they get mad. Do you walk away and give them space? They don't mind.

    Or, do you call them out in public and open them to public ridicule? You may not change them. They may even become further entrenched. But others, like their kids, might think about it. Society has a power to change behavior even if it does not always change minds. It forces people to conform, not always for the better. The anti-vaccine crowd is conforming to their peers and their peers are uninformed, misinformed, and just plain wrong.

    I can't even get into my office without a mask and a clean COVID test within the past 9 days. I'm vaccinated and eventually they may build that into the system. For now, I continue to do the nose swabs every week. I think we need to call them out. No violence. No name calling. We just call them out, single them out, and ostracize them.

    Call it shaming. Call it standing up for the truth. The time for playing nice is over for the good of all.
    Why does it matter? You are vaccinated which makes the chances someone can transmit the disease to you extremely low. If you were to get Covid (a breakthrough) the chances of a serious case are even smaller. If some jamoke wants to walk around unvaccinated and possibly get sick, it will be their problem. In fact, if it results in their death then it will be one less unvaccinated person on the planet, and if they survive they are now one of the immune.

  3. #388
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Last year someone posted a compelling youtube video which outlined the case that the virus had escaped from the Wuhan lab. At one point the video had a still from google maps showing that the lab was adjacent the food market. The map had been photoshopped, and seamlessly moved the lab 15 kilometers. Someone had taken the time to make a fake map, and rather than simply mislabeled a map they had rearranged whole neighborhoods in photoshop.
    So.... was this done with a black sharpie? Asking for a friend...

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Long Island is great for zoonotic diseases. Internal med docs occasionally recognize pneumonic tuleremia, a bacteria inhaled along with aerosolized dead mice after running over them with a lawn mower. Also various beasts from tick bites and mosquito bites. I met someone who had almost died from histoplasmosis, a pulmonary fungus, from exploring a cave on their ranch in Texas. Milling bats in the cave had swept up with their wingbeats bat guano* dust containing the fungus spores.


    *nod to Doctor Strangelove
    Just an aside..... my partner and I treated a large number of folks with tularemia, many years ago - from one of our area reservations. But the resulting published paper was from one of the reservation docs, who hadn't even seen any of those pts. Opportunity missed!
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  4. #389
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    This stupid crap? No, it’s not just their problem. No thy aren’t necessarily “immune”. This has been done over and over.

    Why is covid19 misinformation such a point of pride in “conservatives”? Why do they insist on garbage infotainment?
    Perhaps citing facts instead of sewing hate speech would be a better approach. Are you trying to say that the vaccines do NOT give you a significantly lower risk of infection?

  5. #390
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    And here we have it... the tag-team effort as peb does a hand-off to boatbum (after himself taking the bataan from Sammy...).

    Best option - ignore the troll.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  6. #391
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    But what a great troll, 12 pages now

  7. #392
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Same crowd, same verbs, different nouns.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  8. #393
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Why does it matter? You are vaccinated which makes the chances someone can transmit the disease to you extremely low. If you were to get Covid (a breakthrough) the chances of a serious case are even smaller. If some jamoke wants to walk around unvaccinated and possibly get sick, it will be their problem. In fact, if it results in their death then it will be one less unvaccinated person on the planet, and if they survive they are now one of the immune.
    A virus mutates according to it's ability to do so and opportunity. More vaccinated people means fewer mutations which means we are all less likely to get caught flat footed by a new variant.

    Also, people are idiots.
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

  9. #394
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Why does it matter? You are vaccinated which makes the chances someone can transmit the disease to you extremely low. If you were to get Covid (a breakthrough) the chances of a serious case are even smaller. If some jamoke wants to walk around unvaccinated and possibly get sick, it will be their problem. In fact, if it results in their death then it will be one less unvaccinated person on the planet, and if they survive they are now one of the immune.
    While being vaccinated makes the chance much lower, it doesn't eliminate it. However, since a vaccinated person is less likely to be a carrier, the more people who are vaccinated, the less chance there is of anyone catching it.

    It's kinda like guns - the more people carrying, the greater the chance of getting shot.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  10. #395
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    you do know all of this has been covered - ad nauseum - and ol' boatymcboatboat is just seeing if he can get us/you to repeat the whole thing. Again. Please.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  11. #396
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Long before 2019 virus specialists warned that the practice to keep different species of live animals in small cages at Chinese food markets would sooner or later result in a nasty virus, but there was not much we could do about that from our corner in Northern Europe. Maybe it was sloppy lab procedures instead. We can consider one explanation more likely than the other. Does it matter? The Chineese deserve criticism for the food markets anyway and have to adress both possibilities regardless.
    /Erik

  12. #397
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Sure. And from a health standpoint, you are correct.

    Unfortunately, those involved in the 'push-back' are doing so for a political agenda.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  13. #398
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Why does it matter? You are vaccinated . . .
    I.e. 'if it doesn't affect me directly, why should I care about it'? If refusing to get vaccinated were just a shot at a Darwin Award, perhaps that would hold. But if someone refuses vaccination and gets sick, they can infect other people, and those people can infect other people, and those people can infect other people, and . . . In addition, there are the obvious economic and social effects of a continuing pandemic, and the measures taken to combat it. That's why it matters. It does NOT only affect the person being stupid.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  14. #399
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson
    ... if someone refuses vaccination and gets sick, they can infect other people, and those people can infect other people, and those people can infect other people, and . . . In addition, there are the obvious economic and social effects of a continuing pandemic, and the measures taken to combat it. That's why it matters.
    It seems so simple and obvious to me that I question the humanity of those refusing to comply with public health recommendations.
    I've seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.

  15. #400
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I.e. 'if it doesn't affect me directly, why should I care about it'? If refusing to get vaccinated were just a shot at a Darwin Award, perhaps that would hold. But if someone refuses vaccination and gets sick, they can infect other people, and those people can infect other people, and those people can infect other people, and . . . In addition, there are the obvious economic and social effects of a continuing pandemic, and the measures taken to combat it. That's why it matters. It does NOT only affect the person being stupid.
    In fairness maybe I would feel differently if someone I knew died or got seriously sick from COVID. Both my brothers got it (one is considered medically vulnerable) but they went through it wothout a significant problem.

  16. #401
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    It seems so simple and obvious to me that I question the humanity of those refusing to comply with public health recommendations.
    It is simple for me too - never a question to get vaccinated. But not without an element of concern if there might be an adverse reaction that was worse than the disease. It has certainly been the case for some people, though most have no problems. I still remember all the people getting Guillian-Barre syndrome because the got the swine flu shot in the 70's. There is an irony, that many conservatives side with large corporations, and yet mistrust them when they have developed a vaccine.

  17. #402
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    In fairness maybe I would feel differently if someone I knew died or got seriously sick from COVID.
    Why? Is a death (or a case of long-haul Covid) really only important if it's someone you know? 581,000 people have died of it already in the US alone.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  18. #403
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    ^ there is indeed a great deal of 'certain irony' about today's 'conservatives'
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  19. #404
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Why? Is a death (or a case of long-haul Covid) really only important if it's someone you know? 581,000 people have died of it already in the US alone.
    No, it is not only important if it is someone you know, but don't you think that personal experience with it impacts on your sense of urgency and tolerance for delay?

    There are lots of homeless people in the country. Do you offer them a spare bedroom? Might you be more inclined to do it if it were an uncle? Personal experiences shade everything we do. I was just trying to be fair and honest to you in my response but that doesn't mean that I see ANY person's suffering as acceptable - except for those that bring it on themselves. I see people ride motorcycles without helmets. I feel bad for them and their family if he dumps his bike and is in a coma from a closed head injury, but I also feel he took the risks and knew the consequences - he has no one to blame but himself.

  20. #405
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    How could you leap over the definitive survivorship bias to focus on that?
    I think there is a difference between feeling indifferent from someone who has gotten sick, and someone who could have been vaccinated but chose not to and got sick. I do not feel much regret for someone that could have been vaccinated but refused and later got COVID.

  21. #406
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Claiming it’s no big deal because your brothers got it and were fine is the definition of survivorship bias, whatever gymnastics you need to do to embrace your irrationality just make you look sillier.
    I did not claim it was no big deal because my brothers got it and were fine. I said that it might have affected me differently if it did not go so well for them. It has nothing to do with it being a big deal or not a big deal. As for gymnastics ....I prefer free weights and a stair mill.

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