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Thread: Constructive shaming

  1. #1
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    Default Constructive shaming

    A doctor on TV tonight said he doesn't think we (the US) will ever reach the level of heard immunity. Why? It's all about the numbers, the number of vaccinations.

    So I'm raising the question "Is there such a thing as constructive shaming?"

    "Of course not!" you say.

    Okay, let's talk it out.

    You wear your mask, you get vaccinated, you do the things that keep other people safe. Then along comes the anti-vaccine, anti-mask, we want to party and go to football games crowd.

    What do you do? Do you quietly reason with them? They don't listen. You talk and they shout. You control your temper and they get mad. Do you walk away and give them space? They don't mind.

    Or, do you call them out in public and open them to public ridicule? You may not change them. They may even become further entrenched. But others, like their kids, might think about it. Society has a power to change behavior even if it does not always change minds. It forces people to conform, not always for the better. The anti-vaccine crowd is conforming to their peers and their peers are uninformed, misinformed, and just plain wrong.

    I can't even get into my office without a mask and a clean COVID test within the past 9 days. I'm vaccinated and eventually they may build that into the system. For now, I continue to do the nose swabs every week. I think we need to call them out. No violence. No name calling. We just call them out, single them out, and ostracize them.

    Call it shaming. Call it standing up for the truth. The time for playing nice is over for the good of all.
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    I think it can be done the corporate side too. Shame the corps, businesses, and schools into "no masks, no business" standard. They will eventually have to mandate vaccines for their employees.

    Personally, from a liability standpoint, if I had a business still, I would mandate vaccines for my employees. I would not want to get sued if anybody who worked for me got seriously sick or died because of something that happened on the job.
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Okay, let's talk it out.

    You wear your mask, you get vaccinated, you do the things that keep other people safe. Then along comes the anti-vaccine, anti-mask, we want to party and go to football games crowd.

    What do you do? Do you quietly reason with them? They don't listen. You talk and they shout. You control your temper and they get mad. Do you walk away and give them space? They don't mind.
    Okay, let's talk it out. Done your basic research on covid vaccine refusal, or just winging it? Whom do you identify as statistically most likely to refuse vaccines, and how do those groups break out as far as actual numbers of refuseniks?

    Thinking nationally, or just about what you observe at your university? Please define the parameters for your proposed crusade.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Sooner or later everyone is going to have COVID antibodies. Some will get them from vaccines that have a 1 in a million chance of serious side effects or death and others will get them from the virus itself, with (maybe?) a one in 10,000 chance of death, and under on in a thousand chance of serious side effects. Plus you're more likely to get re-infected by a variant if you are not vaccinated.

    That's a damn hard road, I'm not sure why people would choose it, but some will.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    This is a sad state of affairs. So many still think Covid is a hoax.

    We've banned smoking in public places, so I can see requiring proof of vaccination to enter. At least a mask be required. Can't eat with a mask, so eateries would require vaccine.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by kgr1 View Post
    Okay, let's talk it out. Done your basic research on covid vaccine refusal, or just winging it? Whom do you identify as statistically most likely to refuse vaccines, and how do those groups break out as far as actual numbers of refuseniks?

    Thinking nationally, or just about what you observe at your university? Please define the parameters for your proposed crusade.
    You have a remarkable talent for being objectionable.

    According to a CIDRAP pole (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...vid-19-vaccine) 1 in 4 Americans are refusing the vaccine. So much for "winging it".

    It does not matter who is more likely to refuse. This is not a political decision. It is a social and medical decision.

    Obviously, 1 in 4 in national.

    I'm sure there are some on campus who will refuse, but it is smaller than 1 in 4 so far. We have vaccination on campus and the participation is high. We are, after all, intelligent.

    It's not a crusade. It's a desperate attempt to motivate people who do not exhibit rational behavior.

    Again, you have a talent for being unpleasant.
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    ...You wear your mask, you get vaccinated, you do the things that keep other people safe. Then along comes the anti-vaccine, anti-mask, we want to party and go to football games crowd.

    The anti-vaccine crowd is conforming to their peers and their peers are uninformed, misinformed, and just plain wrong...

    I think we need to call them out. No violence. No name calling. We just call them out, single them out, and ostracize them.

    Call it shaming. Call it standing up for the truth. The time for playing nice is over for the good of all.
    Your target is pretty poorly defined, and your solution has the potential to be considered rude and counterproductive, to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    You have a remarkable talent for being objectionable.

    According to a CIDRAP pole (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...vid-19-vaccine) 1 in 4 Americans are refusing the vaccine. So much for "winging it".
    Sounds like that's exactly what you're doing ("winging it"). I simply invited you to supply a little refinement to your scattershot statement that refuseniks should be shamed.

    It does not matter who is more likely to refuse. This is not a political decision. It is a social and medical decision.

    Obviously, 1 in 4 in national.
    Of course who refuses matters. "One in 4" in America is a pretty first level statistic: some in your target population lack access, either to vaccine, or to information about where to get it, and to the risks. Others have ethnic or cultural factors. Are you proposing shaming anyone who refuses vaccination, then? Or just those who don't see the world from your perspective??

    I'm sure there are some on campus who will refuse, but it is smaller than 1 in 4 so far. We have vaccination on campus and the participation is high. We are, after all, intelligent.

    It's not a crusade. It's a desperate attempt to motivate people who do not exhibit rational behavior.

    Again, you have a talent for being unpleasant.
    And you seem to have remarkably thin skin. Without definition of who's refusing, and why, how do you expect to be taken seriously? Not everyone nationally has your community's collective intelligence and educational level.

    As far as my being unpleasant, that's never my intention, and I have no problem with offering a blanket apology to you to apply to whatever extent you may require. (Damn, l see it, too. )

    But without clearly defining your target, your suggestion has a strongly-implied element of dog-whistling, and invites a request for clarification, at a minimum. You have not provided much.

    Good night, CW.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    "It does not matter who is more likely to refuse. This is not a political decision. It is a social and medical decision."

    At 1 in 4 its a national security issue.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    “It’s not politics it’s social”. Lol. The only use for kegger the troll is to show the utter impossibility of shaming these fools.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Prison is a form of social shaming

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Half a country of Typhoid Mary's given the new strains' infection rate

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    We'll probably reach well above 80% coverage anyway, once we have enough vaccine. Some immigrant communities and some religious groups have much lower coverage; proper ethnical Swedes are not the problem. I think that further alienating already alienated groups is a bad idea. We'll try to convince them the civilized way, or they will develop antibodies the hard way. Many already have. They don't follow other recommendations either.
    /Erik

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Washington State is trying the approach of allowing access to sports events, concerts and such only ​if you show a valid vaccination card. G'luck to them! I'm watching with interest.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    All they need is a scarlet letter R on their foreheads.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    A doctor on TV tonight said he doesn't think we (the US) will ever reach the level of heard immunity. Why? It's all about the numbers, the number of vaccinations.

    So I'm raising the question "Is there such a thing as constructive shaming?...
    Poor doctor! He's never heard of natural immunity. Is it OK to shame him for his ignorance in his own field of study?

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    About a year ago I complained to a local store mgr that he was not enforcing their masking policy on either employees and customers. He asked me what I was going to do about it. I told him I would not shop there anymore and I haven't.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ranger View Post
    About a year ago I complained to a local store mgr that he was not enforcing their masking policy on either employees and customers. He asked me what I was going to do about it. I told him I would not shop there anymore and I haven't.
    This is beyond a doubt something responsible people should do. If the store had a flyer for a KKK rally, wouldn't most of us do the same? People who refuse vaccination either get the disease or are protected by the responsible behavior of others. The former can be a rough way to go about it and the latter relies on the responsible outnumbering the irresponsible.
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam F View Post
    Poor doctor! He's never heard of natural immunity. Is it OK to shame him for his ignorance in his own field of study?
    You mean gaining immunity through getting the disease? Other than being a rough way to do it, how many like-minded people will they infect in the process? We get the vaccine not only for ourselves, but for others.
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    I bet that poor doctor hasn't even read this from the Salk Institute:
    In the new study, the researchers created a “pseudovirus” that was surrounded by SARS-CoV-2 classic crown of spike proteins, but did not contain any actual virus. Exposure to this pseudovirus resulted in damage to the lungs and arteries of an animal model—proving that the spike protein alone was enough to cause disease. Tissue samples showed inflammation in endothelial cells lining the pulmonary artery walls.

    The team then replicated this process in the lab, exposing healthy endothelial cells (which line arteries) to the spike protein. They showed that the spike protein damaged the cells by binding ACE2. This binding disrupted ACE2’s molecular signaling to mitochondria (organelles that generate energy for cells), causing the mitochondria to become damaged and fragmented.

    Previous studies have shown a similar effect when cells were exposed to the SARS-CoV-2 virus, but this is the first study to show that the damage occurs when cells are exposed to the spike protein on its own.
    https://www.salk.edu/news-release/th...le-in-illness/

    Meanwhile from the CDC:
    COVID-19 mRNA vaccines give instructions for our cells to make harmless piece of what is called the “spike protein.” The spike protein is found on the surface of the virus that causes COVID-19.
    Harmless "spike protein". Sure it is.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    You mean gaining immunity through getting the disease? Other than being a rough way to do it, how many like-minded people will they infect in the process? We get the vaccine not only for ourselves, but for others.
    Dr. Marty Makary of Johns Hopkins says the US will reach herd immunity by April - as in we already essentially have reached that level. He estimates that 2/3 of the country have already had the virus. I have almost certainly had it - and it wasn't rough at all. Given what I've witnessed of people who had the 2nd vaccine dose what I had was preferable.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam F View Post
    I bet that poor doctor hasn't even read this from the Salk Institute:

    https://www.salk.edu/news-release/th...le-in-illness/
    Uh... Did you actually read that article you linked in your attempt to "prove" the vaccine unsafe? Here's the very first paragraph:

    LA JOLLA—Scientists have known for a while that SARS-CoV-2’s distinctive “spike” proteins help the virus infect its host by latching on to healthy cells. Now, a major new study shows that the virus spike proteins (which behave very differently than those safely encoded by vaccines) also play a key role in the disease itself.
    So, no. Just... no. You are wrong.

    Either you are wrong because you failed to understand the article you linked (probably because of confirmation bias, I'd guess), or because you are deliberately spreading misinformation. Or perhaps you've found a way to do both at once. I wouldn't put it past you.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    This isn’t a problem of those who’ve always been anti-vaccine.

    This is two problems: skepticism from the Black community and a station identification thing among white political conservatives. The former group may be well-met with the pivot to smaller vaccination centers and peer outreach. The second are probably unreachable as long as Trumpist politicians want to score points at the expense of their own voters. And THAT deserves unlimited shaming.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    I don’t think that SamF knows as much about the subject of herd immunity as he would like us to think he does. I think it’s pretty complex.

    On vaccination résistance, medical insurers might like to suggest that those who do not get vaccinated as soon as they are able to do so are without cover for treatments related to covid19?
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam F View Post
    Poor doctor! He's never heard of natural immunity. Is it OK to shame him for his ignorance in his own field of study?
    Why listen to those who know what they're talking about?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Uh... Did you actually read that article you linked in your attempt to "prove" the vaccine unsafe? Here's the very first paragraph:



    So, no. Just... no. You are wrong.

    Either you are wrong because you failed to understand the article you linked (probably because of confirmation bias, I'd guess), or because you are deliberately spreading misinformation. Or perhaps you've found a way to do both at once. I wouldn't put it past you.

    Tom
    This may shock you but I drew my own conclusions. Yes I'm not wearing a lab coat but I still manage to do that. And why be skeptical? Because I remember when the authorities have either lied or been wrong. Or sometimes both. Now is no different.
    What you should remember is that if you're not allowed to question something, it's not fact - it's propaganda.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    This isn’t a problem of those who’ve always been anti-vaccine.

    This is two problems: skepticism from the Black community and a station identification thing among white political conservatives. The former group may be well-met with the pivot to smaller vaccination centers and peer outreach. The second are probably unreachable as long as Trumpist politicians want to score points at the expense of their own voters. And THAT deserves unlimited shaming.
    A report on NPR (last night, I think?) suggested that the next target was to make it much easier to find a vaccination--using texting, outreach, smaller centers, etc. as you say. And that will get a certain portion of people who are willing to get a vaccine, but are either not able to do so, or are so unmotivated about it (e.g. younger people) that they will only do it if it becomes as easy as everything else they do on their phones. So I don't think it's only resistance from the Black community.

    I also heard that about 1,000 doses per week are being wasted right now in Wisconsin. That's tough to hear.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    I admit to being at a total loss. A bunch of Americans seem to wish Small Pox, Polio, etc. were still free to roam among us.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I don’t think that SamF knows as much about the subject of herd immunity as he would like us to think he does. I think it’s pretty complex.

    On vaccination résistance, medical insurers might like to suggest that those who do not get vaccinated as soon as they are able to do so are without cover for treatments related to covid19?
    I am not an expert. I never claimed to be an expert. I do however have sufficient critical thinking skills based on, among other things, experience.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam F View Post
    This may shock you but I drew my own conclusions. Yes I'm not wearing a lab coat but I still manage to do that. And why be skeptical? Because I remember when the authorities have either lied or been wrong. Or sometimes both. Now is no different.
    What you should remember is that if you're not allowed to question something, it's not fact - it's propaganda.
    Pffttt....

    You "drew your own conclusions" by selectively quoting bits of an article that, taken completely out of context, can seem to support your beliefs. Apparently that part of the article wasn't worth being "skeptical" about. I wonder why?

    At the same time, you discard statements from the very same source that clearly and explicitly contradict your interpretation of the data. And suddenly, this part of the article you choose NOT to believe.

    Nothing but confirmation bias and/or dishonesty in your posts.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I admit to being at a total loss. A bunch of Americans seem to wish Small Pox, Polio, etc. were still free to roam among us.
    This is a false equivalence. I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I have myself been vaccinated many times. But people's trust in the authorities is at an all time low - for a reason - actually lots of reasons.
    If the authorities don't like it they can stop lying for a change. It'll take decades for trust to be rebuilt though.

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam F View Post
    ...people's trust in the authorities is at an all time low - for a reason - actually lots of reasons.
    I agree with Sam F that people’s trust in the authorities is low.

    We may not agree about why this is so.

    I think it is because of systematic abuse of the powers of social media by organisations seeking to promote the rise to political power and influence of Donald J Trump.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I agree with Sam F that people’s trust in the authorities is low.

    We may not agree about why this is so.

    I think it is because of systematic abuse of the powers of social media by organisations seeking to promote the rise to political power and influence of Donald J Trump.
    Like they're doing now? Nope. Their "failing" was in letting the signal through. That's stopped now literally with a vengeance. On Trump you have the cart before the horse. Trump was elected because the people didn't trust what the establishment had on offer. Why? In the case of Ms. Hillary, it's because she is an un-indicted felon who held 1/2 of America in contempt and hatred. Want an example? my co-workers had a copy of just one of the laws she broke posted in their office. If any of us had done that, we'd still be in prison. It was a good reminder of our status. So much for equality under the law.
    And as for the billionaires who rule us and the government? They're the same thing. What I find hilarious is the old self described anti-establishment boomers acting as hall monitors for the rich and powerful. What chumps!

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    Andrew, remember the Gulf of Tonkin incident? That's where it started for me.
    It never happened. How many people died, how much societal damage started with that lie?

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    Proudly beings wrong is the point!

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    Default Re: Constructive shaming

    We won't reach herd immunity - because approx. 30% of the population is unwilling to be vaccinated, for a variety of reasons. The initial estimations of number to be vaxxed, to reach herd immunity, were based on the original virus. That has been supplanted by newer, more contagious, more virulent varieties - and because of those features, the 'number needed' has risen considerably. Anticipate this to become a chronic, simmering problem, with upticks and ongoing need for a mask.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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