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Thread: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    We don't agree too often but we do on this, the basics of socialism is the government controls you, it comes in many flavors but self reliance is not one of the them.
    Our government uses our taxes to maintain navigational aids, dredge harbors, provide roads, bridges, tunnels, and a whole bunch of things every person and every business benefits from.

    I'm curious as to what things on that long list people would rather the government did not provide.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Our government uses our taxes to maintain navigational aids, dredge harbors, provide roads, bridges, tunnels, and a whole bunch of things every person and every business benefits from.
    All without socialism. What does socialism add?
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Socialism is like food. Too little and you die. Too much and you become bloated and sluggish. Way too much will kill you too.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    We don't agree too often but we do on this, the basics of socialism is the government controls you, it comes in many flavors but self reliance is not one of the them.
    you might want to look into socialism, because there are self-reliant communities.

    the dumbest crap ever is Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom”.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    We don't agree too often but we do on this, the basics of socialism is the government controls you, it comes in many flavors but self reliance is not one of the them.
    tehe
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    We don't agree too often but we do on this, the basics of socialism is the government controls you, it comes in many flavors but self reliance is not one of the them.
    I don't understand. How does a community chipping in on schools, road maintenance, and fire department control me? How does going from $600 per month for major medical ($5K deductible) at age 64 to $200/month for medicare which covers far more control me? I own a 3 pt hitch post hole digger jointly with 2 friends - how does that control me?

    Having a fire department makes me less self-reliant? I should go out & spend 10K on a fire engine & build a heated barn to keep it in so I can be "self reliant"?

    As I said, I don't understand - please explain if you would.
    Last edited by Garret; 04-16-2021 at 03:38 PM. Reason: spellig
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    For the first 350 years of US settlement those were all sources of community and civic pride. Schools? Great! Fire department? Ben Franklin loved ‘em. Roads? Huge step forward.

    But now thanks to libertarianism like the metric system these are all things of statist oppression.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I don't understand. How does a community chipping in on schools, road maintenance, and fire department control me? How does going from $600 per month for major medical ($5K deductible) at age 64 to $200/month for medicare which covers far more control me? I own a 3 pt hitch post hole digger jointly with 2 friends - how does that control me?

    Having a fire department makes me less self-reliant? I should go out & spend 10K on a fire engine & build a heated barn to keep it in so I can be "self reliant"?

    As I said, I don't understand - please explain if you would.
    And end up like this, no thanks.
    How socialism turned Venezuela from the wealthiest country in South America into an economic basket case

    How socialism turned Venezuela from the wealthiest country in South America into an economic basket case | Fox News

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    It really is hard to hold a productive conversation when there is such a wide variety of interpretations/misinterpretations of the central term.

    Socialism is -- to be precise, nothing more and nothing less, 'social ownership of the means of production'. Marx viewed it as an intermediary step between capitalism and the ultimate 'best' system: communism. Here's the short summary -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

    Social democracy, as the article states, is something else. And most of what people argue about - in this thread, and in politics - is the extent to which, WITHIN A CAPITALIST MODEL (not a socialist one), the market will be left to handle various matters. As opposed to the extent to which they will be handled by government (the people).

    Communism and Socialism (and Libertarianism) - as national policy - don't work. Sound good in theory, but they fail in practice. Pesky human nature bollixes it all up.

    In capitalism economies, it is absolutely possible to swing too far toward either the 'social' end of things or the 'market' end, policy-wise. We are, without a doubt, too far toward the market end at the moment. Those who argue otherwise either have a vested interest in the lining of a few pockets inherent to that end... or have been sold a bill of goods. One of the ways that vested interests sell that bill of goods is to create propaganda that misinforms rather than illuminates. Lading certain words with scary connotations is one technique in the propagandists arsenal. Loaded, confusing, boogie-man words can trigger fear, and a fearful person is more easily manipulated.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    We don't agree too often but we do on this, the basics of socialism is the government controls you, it comes in many flavors but self reliance is not one of the them.
    Paul 'Colbert' Pless for the win.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    And end up like this, no thanks.
    How corruption turned Venezuela from the wealthiest country in South America into an economic basket case
    Fixed that ferya.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    And end up like this, no thanks.
    How socialism turned Venezuela from the wealthiest country in South America into an economic basket case

    How socialism turned Venezuela from the wealthiest country in South America into an economic basket case | Fox News
    OK - I couldn't make it all the way through that article. If you think that what anyone here has or will suggest is anything like Venezuela, you are simply wrong. No one is suggesting most of what happened there, but I guess you believe it's all or none. So - willing to give up on public roads & schools? Fire department? You must be. Good luck with that. I'll be happy to tell your town fire department you don't want them to come if your house is on fire.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    You might not be aware that free college - which is what some Democrats want, provides more benefits to the rich than to the poor.
    enlighten us on this. So Little Tommy from Princeton NJ whose parents make over a million a year at their jobs benefits more from free college than little tommy from Detroit who's mom has to work two jobs to keep the lights on?
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    And end up like this, no thanks.
    How socialism turned Venezuela from the wealthiest country in South America into an economic basket case

    How socialism turned Venezuela from the wealthiest country in South America into an economic basket case | Fox News
    Corruption and incompetence destroyed Venezuela, not socialism.

    I am very fortunate in that I live in a country that by the standards of conservative America, is only one slippery step away from communism.
    But in general our taxpayers are ok with it, we get good value for what we pay, and in fact when I sat down with my American visitors and compared notes, when federal, state, sales taxes and property taxes were all added up we found that what is left in our pockets was very similar to theirs.
    Our hospitals are publicly owned, free to users, and the fact that we dont have to pay for health insurance makes more of our income available to spend, our schools are funded from the central tax pool not local property owners, we get a universal non contributary, and non asset or income tested pension, our roads are pretty well maintained, our police force is also funded from that same central tax pool rather than local, ( they dont "carry" either, which must save a few bucks as well as lives) and, well, I could go on.
    Democratic socialism, it works, we're rated among the top two or three countries on the planet in terms of personal freedom, and freedom from corruption, New Zealand is a nice place to live.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    All without socialism. What does socialism add?
    This IS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM. Government takes our taxes and spends on things that promote the general welfare.

    Anyone who opposes this is free to not use the roads, or any of the other things we enjoy because our government used our tax dollars to provide.

    This is not the socialism where the government builds things. Our government pays private contractors to build roads, repair roads, etc.

    What do you have against it?
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Yes, as a matter of fact I do want free tuition, books, lab fees etc. (education) for the rich as well. That's what the socialism aspect of it is for, everyone gets the benefits. Because unless it's given to them, then it certainly won't be given to the poor who really need it. That is the mentality that's holding all this up. If EVERYONE is better educated, then that guy sitting on top of the pile as CEO of company XYZ, will have better educated employees. That means they'll likely have more productive employees. That in turn means their company will perform better. That makes the rich CEO richer. There's no getting around the fact that an educated populace is better able to pull the weight of society, make better decisions etc. Bring up the average anything and everyone benefits. Average education level, average income... pretty much average anything.
    Perhaps you can explain why the bottom 20% - who already get free tuition and room and board, only represent 2% of those in college. It does not appear that giving the rich - top 20% and 50% of college students, more money will change the participation numbers of either the bottom 20% or the top 20%.

    I think the prevailing view of bringing up the average by giving more to the rich is not working.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    We don't agree too often but we do on this, the basics of socialism is the government controls you, it comes in many flavors but self reliance is not one of the them.
    I assume that means that when you retire, you won't collect your "SOCIAL SECURITY" or your MEDICAIRE...which are both ~Very~..

    oooohhhh brace yourself. Here comes the boogeyword!!!


    SOCIALIST programs.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    We don't agree too often but we do on this, the basics of socialism is the government controls you, it comes in many flavors but self reliance is not one of the them.
    What utter bollocks.
    You do post some ignorant crap.
    We have enjoyed the benefits of socialist governments, benefits that work so well that the Tory government dare not change them, so I call your post bollocks from a lifetime benefiting from socialism.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan H View Post
    I assume that means that when you retire, you won't collect your "SOCIAL SECURITY" or your MEDICAIRE...which are both ~Very~..

    oooohhhh brace yourself. Here comes the boogeyword!!!


    SOCIALIST programs.
    In fairness, Social Security is largely based on a person's contributions over their working career, but medicare is different:

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    enlighten us on this. So Little Tommy from Princeton NJ whose parents make over a million a year at their jobs benefits more from free college than little tommy from Detroit who's mom has to work two jobs to keep the lights on?
    As I wrote here (and others have written in opinion pieces in a number of places) those in the bottom 20% don't get into college but do get free tuition and room and board, while those in the top 20% pay full tuition and room and board have 50% of the spaces in public colleges.

    Giving the poor what they already have gives them nothing. Giving the rich a lot just gives them a lot.

    If you want little tommy from Detroit to go to college, you need to provide him with a better K-12 education so he gets in. Because it costs him nothing to attend.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Perhaps you can explain why the bottom 20% - who already get free tuition and room and board, only represent 2% of those in college. It does not appear that giving the rich - top 20% and 50% of college students, more money will change the participation numbers of either the bottom 20% or the top 20%.

    I think the prevailing view of bringing up the average by giving more to the rich is not working.

    If they can apply for and get the limited number of grants, they can go for little to no money. If College were "free" to all those going, Those grants could go to other needs, perhaps giving those low income students some income while in school? I will admit I went to College for Free, my father paid for it with a pair of Artificial Hips that he earned in Vietnam. If not for that, I would have never been able to go to College because the grants were just not available to those like myself who did well enough in school to get accepted to college, but not outstandingly so. In fact, I worked through my Junior and Senior years in High School just to give myself some money to spend as my parents could not afford to give me any at all. Certainly not enough to buy and drive the car I needed to get back and forth to school with.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan H View Post
    I assume that means that when you retire, you won't collect your "SOCIAL SECURITY" or your MEDICAIRE...which are both ~Very~..

    oooohhhh brace yourself. Here comes the boogeyword!!!


    SOCIALIST programs.
    I don't need Social Security to live. In fact, the $50K/year my wife and I get, pays for a pretty good life. There are a lot of couples who get a lot less relative to their needs.

    Social Security is Socialism in name only.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    If they can apply for and get the limited number of grants, they can go for little to no money. If College were "free" to all those going, Those grants could go to other needs, perhaps giving those low income students some income while in school? I will admit I went to College for Free, my father paid for it with a pair of Artificial Hips that he earned in Vietnam. If not for that, I would have never been able to go to College because the grants were just not available to those like myself who did well enough in school to get accepted to college, but not outstandingly so. In fact, I worked through my Junior and Senior years in High School just to give myself some money to spend as my parents could not afford to give me any at all. Certainly not enough to buy and drive the car I needed to get back and forth to school with.
    You have a distorted sense of financial aid.

    As I said Stanford gives free tuition and room and board to any student below the median. Other schools have similar policies.

    You might inquire at your state universities as to how much aid they have for those in the bottom 20%. A couple of my granddaughter's friends are attending state colleges for free due to their families' economic condition.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    This IS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM.
    What is?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    What do you have against it?
    I don't know what I have against it, because I don't know what you mean.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Actually your problem is with the word. It's community writ large. But of course humans being humans there's always a few freeloaders and crooks. Question is do you dismiss the good in search of the perfect?

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    It really is hard to hold a productive conversation when there is such a wide variety of interpretations/misinterpretations of the central term.

    Socialism is -- to be precise, nothing more and nothing less, 'social ownership of the means of production'. Marx viewed it as an intermediary step between capitalism and the ultimate 'best' system: communism. Here's the short summary -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

    Social democracy, as the article states, is something else. And most of what people argue about - in this thread, and in politics - is the extent to which, WITHIN A CAPITALIST MODEL (not a socialist one), the market will be left to handle various matters. As opposed to the extent to which they will be handled by government (the people).

    Communism and Socialism (and Libertarianism) - as national policy - don't work. Sound good in theory, but they fail in practice. Pesky human nature bollixes it all up.

    In capitalism economies, it is absolutely possible to swing too far toward either the 'social' end of things or the 'market' end, policy-wise. We are, without a doubt, too far toward the market end at the moment. Those who argue otherwise either have a vested interest in the lining of a few pockets inherent to that end... or have been sold a bill of goods. One of the ways that vested interests sell that bill of goods is to create propaganda that misinforms rather than illuminates. Lading certain words with scary connotations is one technique in the propagandists arsenal. Loaded, confusing, boogie-man words can trigger fear, and a fearful person is more easily manipulated.
    Yes, socialism comes in many flavors just like Kool Aid, you can pick any one you like, however, the fundamentals are all the same.

    Socialism is dangerous for many reasons, it gives unchecked power to the state, removes freedoms, and destroys the economy. With socialism, it causes all production to be regulated by the state, as well as attempting at creating equality through distribution.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    Yes, socialism comes in many flavors just like Kool Aid, you can pick any one you like, however, the fundamentals are all the same.

    Socialism is dangerous for many reasons, it gives unchecked power to the state, removes freedoms, and destroys the economy. With socialism, it causes all production to be regulated by the state, as well as attempting at creating equality through distribution.
    Not one, single, truth in the whole bag.

    It's like watching a magician who can't pull anything out of a hat.

    A lethal, fascist-worshiping comedy of errors built on lies and propaganda designed to let Jeff Bezos pay no taxes, and force tens of thousands of other poor slobs to die of exposure under a bridge somewhere.

    The Republican Party is far, far more evil than some made-up version of 'socialism'.

    The Republican Party is a human construct, just as is socialism, and as such can be designed to serve evil or good. Love or hate. Fear or joy.

    The Republican Party always chooses evil, hate and fear.

    It is a blight upon humanity, and needs desperately to be ground into a paste, thence to be spread out to dry and later incinerated in an attempt to rid this beautiful planet from its guiding values of greed and authority.

    Ugh.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    Socialism is dangerous for many reasons, it gives unchecked power to the state, removes freedoms, and destroys the economy. With socialism, it causes all production to be regulated by the state, as well as attempting at creating equality through distribution.
    You really are confused. That is a description of communism as tried and failed in the USSR
    Socialism has never had all production controlled by the state, and has never controlled distribution, except for health care and education.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    As I wrote here (and others have written in opinion pieces in a number of places) those in the bottom 20% don't get into college but do get free tuition and room and board, while those in the top 20% pay full tuition and room and board have 50% of the spaces in public colleges.

    Giving the poor what they already have gives them nothing. Giving the rich a lot just gives them a lot.

    If you want little tommy from Detroit to go to college, you need to provide him with a better K-12 education so he gets in. Because it costs him nothing to attend.
    I don't know where you get your facts, but I KNOW people who've gone to college. My oldest daughter was in the top 2% ever to graduate from Belleville High. She got a $100 scholarship. I attended the financial aid meeting at the high school. It was enlightening.

    About 20 minutes in I stood up and loudly said, "Excuse me". I got the attention of the very nice woman giving the seminar.

    I pointed out that I knew most of the families in this audience. You are telling us we will send our kids through college on student loans. Parents all around the auditorium voiced their agreement.

    My daughter got into Trenton State. To cut down of borrowed money, she got herself in charge of her dorm floor, arranging field trips, helping students with problems, etc. That cut her tuition by a bit. During Christmas recess of her third year, she gave us a marvelous surprise. She had completed all four years in 2 1/2. That saved three semesters of tuition what would have been borrowed.

    She had friends from high school who also went to college. ALL on student loans. My daughter went on to get her doctorate, and has landed excellent jobs, authored a number of books, several of which are required reading at a number of universities. Her loan debt, because of her income, is an annoyance.

    To her friends who have not done so well it's been tough to pay off.

    We need to find a better way.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    What is?



    I don't know what I have against it, because I don't know what you mean.
    What do you have against government providing roads, dredging harbors, providing airports, and all those other things we all benefit from?
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    To her friends who have not done so well it's been tough to pay off.

    We need to find a better way.
    When our government decided that a grant system was too expensive they instituted a system of student loans. You do not start repaying the loans untill your income passes a threshold. Not earning enough, no repayment is due.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    Socialism is dangerous for many reasons, it gives unchecked power to the state, removes freedoms, and destroys the economy. With socialism, it causes all production to be regulated by the state, as well as attempting at creating equality through distribution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You really are confused. That is a description of communism as tried and failed in the USSR
    Socialism has never had all production controlled by the state, and has never controlled distribution, except for health care and education.

    And here we see why people fear and hate socialism, As woodpile so deftly demonstrates.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    And here we see why people fear and hate socialism, As woodpile so deftly demonstrates.
    So, you are saying that they are ignorant of that which they speak, but have imagined boggarts hiding under the bed?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So, you are saying that they are ignorant of that which they speak, but have imagined boggarts hiding under the bed?
    perhaps not so eloquently put into words.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I don't know where you get your facts, but I KNOW people who've gone to college. My oldest daughter was in the top 2% ever to graduate from Belleville High. She got a $100 scholarship. I attended the financial aid meeting at the high school. It was enlightening.

    I pointed out that I knew most of the families in this audience. You are telling us we will send our kids through college on student loans. Parents all around the auditorium voiced their agreement.
    Were you in the bottom 20%? Have you filled out a FAFSA recently? Do you want to tell us your economic condition? Those are the types of questions I would ask anyone who wants to have a serious discussion on the subject.

    My oldest daughter dropped out of high school after 11th grade and had a very good financial aid package at an Ivy league college. She graduated from college. My youngest daughter dropped out of high school after 10th grade and had a full scholarship at a college of her choice. She dropped out after a year and moved to California to work in tech.

    Despite both kids being smart and having well above average income and savings (their family college financial contributions are above $50K/year), each has expressed the common lie about "how will they ever afford college for their kids?" So I understand the issue people have with paying for college.

    In the past I posted links to the college debt distribution of college graduates. You might search for that information. The debts of graduates is reasonable with respect to their family incomes and their future earnings.



    If you want me to support free college you have to at least realize that many people are denied access to college not only due to their economic condition but because they were relegated to poor quality schools. And at least express interest in correcting that.
    Life is complex.

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