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Thread: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

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    Default Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    And why is anything even slightly coloured by the idea that if it's for the greater good it must be socialism and socialism is evil? Someone suggests paying for education and everyone is up in arms that socialism is bad but if we left their garbage at the curb in front of their house, didn't plow the street or provide clean drinking water, it's the end of the world. What's the difference? Are that many people truly that stupid?
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Yes.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Because different people have different definitions of "socialism", ranging from European style to Venezuelan-style to North Korean-style.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    It has a similar number of syllables as communism which the US has spent a lot of lives and money fighting so there you go.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    “Socialism” or “communism” has been a catch all term for bad things like racial integration in the US since the 1950s.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Because people can be stupid, fecless, lazy, ill educated, easily led and prejudiced against just about anything you can imagine.
    Humans can be like that.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    cuz they eat rats in Venzooailia
    Tucker and Jeanine said so.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Propaganda!
    A mixed economy where the state, on behalf of the people, administers some essential services does not make the rich grow richer!
    It is the mantra of the followers of Milton Friedman. The money worshipers and the power grabbers who’s appetite is insatiable.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Because Communism is extinct (aside from a few insignificant backwaters like North Korea), and the US right wing needed a new boogeyman to scare people.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Wasn’t that Easter guy a socialist? Is that why they strung him up?

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    ^ the ONE GUY who could turn water into wine. whatta buncha dopes

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Because Communism is extinct (aside from a few insignificant backwaters like North Korea), and the US right wing needed a new boogeyman to scare people.
    China isn’t insignificant, and the Party still rules it.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Socialism is only considered evil in the US.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?
    socialism is evil because it infringes upon my economic freedom and self determinism

    also, taxes, dammit
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    China isn’t insignificant, and the Party still rules it.
    Yeah, but China these days is about as communist as Germany, for all the spiffy red flags. A variety of authoritarian, doubtless, but nothing Marx or Engels would recognize.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Yes indeed, people are that stupid.

    Equating classic Karl Marx ( China, the USSR, N Korea, Cuba, now Venezuela ) with Democratic socialism ( the Scandinavian countries, Bernie Sanders, AOC ) is nutsburgers.

    The pathetic bleating of regressives about Bernie Sanders ( waddaya want, another Venezuela?, etc. ) are puerile enough as to make me want to move to a democratic socialist country.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Yeah, but China these days is about as communist as Germany, for all the spiffy red flags. A variety of authoritarian, doubtless, but nothing Marx or Engels would recognize.
    Our faith and beliefs are of the utmost importance at all times," Xi said. "Our belief in communism and in socialism with Chinese characteristics are our political soul, and our spiritual rock that will enable us as communists to withstand any challenge."
    https://www.rfa.org/english/news/chi...021091451.html
    This isn’t the thread, but 10 years ago it was maybe credible to say it’s not communist, in 2021 it’s not. It’s not the same communism of, say 1950, but it’s not just authoritarian

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    socialism is evil because it infringes upon my economic freedom and self determinism
    How?
    Sweeping statements require proof. But you cannot prove it as I know that I am more free that you, we ran a thread with that conclusion.

    also, taxes, dammit
    There is the rub. Rich businessmen have brainwashed the proles into a false belief because . . . .follow the money.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    And why is anything even slightly coloured by the idea that if it's for the greater good it must be socialism and socialism is evil? Someone suggests paying for education and everyone is up in arms that socialism is bad but if we left their garbage at the curb in front of their house, didn't plow the street or provide clean drinking water, it's the end of the world. What's the difference? Are that many people truly that stupid?
    You might not be aware that free college - which is what some Democrats want, provides more benefits to the rich than to the poor. That might suggest that modern Socialism like modern Democracy is a rob the poor and give to the rich idea.

    But the big issue in opposition to Socialism is many individuals think they are entitled. More entitled than those who have less. And only after their entitlement is fulfilled is it appropriate to consider others.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Taxes, sure. If you say so. But pretty much everyone in the world recognizes that with those higher taxes come benefits. Whereas, the US has almost nothing effective to show for it's taxes, worst healthcare in the developed world, also the most expensive. So align a little more with some of the democratic socialist countries, get a bit more stuff for the good of society and make the taxes that Americans do pay go far enough to justify them. Want some more money to pay for it, cut the defense budget. Nobody in their right mind would think of a military that could easily take on the next 10 largest militaries in the world all at once needs more money. What if they could only take on the next 5 militaries? Or 8? But cutting into the defense budget a little would cover ALL of the deficiencies in the budgets normally tabled.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    One word answer, Sen McCarthy.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Because Bernie made the mistake of telling everybody he was a Democratic Socialist, instead of a Social Democrat.

    As with "Defund the Police" it was a misguided usage which has created a catastrophic mess for Democrats.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    And why is anything even slightly coloured by the idea that if it's for the greater good it must be socialism and socialism is evil? Someone suggests paying for education and everyone is up in arms that socialism is bad but if we left their garbage at the curb in front of their house, didn't plow the street or provide clean drinking water, it's the end of the world. What's the difference? Are that many people truly that stupid?
    The people who scream this bullspit from the rooftops are either ignorant of the 'general welfare' clause of the US Constitution or they're fascist tools bent upon the destruction of liberal democracy.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Socialism is alive and well in the US, but those who oppose it don't realize that their Social Security and Medicare is socialism. When other forms are discussed (like universal health care) too many people think they will do worse than they do now if others get what they need. They mistrust government, partly because we tend to under-fund our commitments, and think that minorities will get it all.

    Basically, the right does MUCH better at advertising lies than the left does at explaining the truth. Why do you think that is?
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    Propaganda!
    A mixed economy where the state, on behalf of the people, administers some essential services does not make the rich grow richer!
    It is the mantra of the followers of Milton Friedman. The money worshipers and the power grabbers who’s appetite is insatiable.
    That is one very important part of the puzzle. The propagandists attempting to keep people confused enough to continue supporting the oligarchs. Often in direct opposition to their own interests, the American Dream, and the vision of our founding fathers. It has been a well-funded effort - tapping into the lessons learned on Madison Avenue in the 50's and beyond. A venal and cynical and misguided and perverse effort that has been unceasing. Unrelenting. The shorthand phrase I use is 'Greed never sleeps'. It is the clinical example of what happens in capitalism when we let the monied interests gain too much sway.

    Then there's the real-world nugget of truth around which they've spun their boogie-man narrative. For a while, there was a profoundly serious battle in the world over what economic system would dominate. It's easy to look back now and say that the Red Menace was a paper tiger. But for a while, the effort to fend it off colored everything. And people are STILL fearful of Communism, and it's associated term Socialism.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    You might not be aware that free college - which is what some Democrats want, provides more benefits to the rich than to the poor. That might suggest that modern Socialism like modern Democracy is a rob the poor and give to the rich idea.

    But the big issue in opposition to Socialism is many individuals think they are entitled. More entitled than those who have less. And only after their entitlement is fulfilled is it appropriate to consider others.
    I've argued, without success, for some time that the K-12 thing is antiquated.

    I've also suggested those who oppose democratic socialism build their own roads and bridges.

    Elizabeth Warren took a lot of heat from the right, but she was absolutely correct in that government provided airports, dredged harbors, navigational aids, roads, water and electric systems, etc. BENEFIT BUSINESSES as well as individuals. Supplies get shipped to factories. Products get shipped to consumers. All over roads provided by taxpayers.

    Imagine having no patent laws, and no courts to enforce them; the courts being provided by the taxpayers.

    Look at the exchange between Dr. Fauci and Jim Jordan, where Jordan was ranting about first amendment rights, as if ideas designed to protect the public health violate them.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Taxes, sure. If you say so. But pretty much everyone in the world recognizes that with those higher taxes come benefits. Whereas, the US has almost nothing effective to show for it's taxes, worst healthcare in the developed world, also the most expensive. So align a little more with some of the democratic socialist countries, get a bit more stuff for the good of society and make the taxes that Americans do pay go far enough to justify them. Want some more money to pay for it, cut the defense budget. Nobody in their right mind would think of a military that could easily take on the next 10 largest militaries in the world all at once needs more money. What if they could only take on the next 5 militaries? Or 8? But cutting into the defense budget a little would cover ALL of the deficiencies in the budgets normally tabled.
    I've also argued, in vain, that healthcare ought to be part of our infrastructure, just as roads are.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    The people who scream this bullspit from the rooftops are either ignorant of the 'general welfare' clause of the US Constitution or they're fascist tools bent upon the destruction of liberal democracy.
    Actually, they just get their 'news' from prime time FOX, Newsmax, etc.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    The problem with the General Welfare clause is that Regressives believe that general welfare jibes with their idea of how government should function i.e. to enhance the power and finances of the select who will then provide for the non-select.

    And the founders believed that too, since they were really enthusiastic about the Pursuit of Happiness, which in their definition pretty much matches the definition above.

    Read my sig. It address the entire issue.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I've argued, without success, for some time that the K-12 thing is antiquated.
    I am sure if you attended school in a "poor" or minority school district, you would see a large difference between your beliefs about K-12 and the reality of K-12.

    I have no issues with the idea of free equal education thru college. But the reality is that is not going to happen. Stanford provides free tuition and room and board for those below the median:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ent%20outcomes.
    The median family income of a student from Stanford is $167,500, and 66% come from the top 20 percent. About 2.2% of students at Stanford came from a poor family
    Guess who gets to go. The rich.

    You can select the college of your choice in a box near the top of the link. It is not just private schools. At state universities about 50% of students have parents in the top 20% of income - rich. You want free tuition for them. (The 2% of the student body who are poor - parents in the bottom 20%, get free tuition and room and board already. They just don't get let in.)
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Yes, as a matter of fact I do want free tuition, books, lab fees etc. (education) for the rich as well. That's what the socialism aspect of it is for, everyone gets the benefits. Because unless it's given to them, then it certainly won't be given to the poor who really need it. That is the mentality that's holding all this up. If EVERYONE is better educated, then that guy sitting on top of the pile as CEO of company XYZ, will have better educated employees. That means they'll likely have more productive employees. That in turn means their company will perform better. That makes the rich CEO richer. There's no getting around the fact that an educated populace is better able to pull the weight of society, make better decisions etc. Bring up the average anything and everyone benefits. Average education level, average income... pretty much average anything.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Because Communism is extinct (aside from a few insignificant backwaters like North Korea), and the US right wing needed a new boogeyman to scare people.
    You make up your own definition, which gives the impression of precision. Whereas, precision is the very last thing you want. Blame it all on a precise thing and eliminate it, then where will the money come from?
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    The problem with the General Welfare clause is that Regressives believe that general welfare jibes with their idea of how government should function i.e. to enhance the power and finances of the select who will then provide for the non-select.

    And the founders believed that too, since they were really enthusiastic about the Pursuit of Happiness, which in their definition pretty much matches the definition above.

    Read my sig. It address the entire issue.
    So the problem isn't the clause, but a deliberate distortion of it, ideological and/or self-interested.
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

    -- James Madison, Federalist 55

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    socialism is evil because it infringes upon my economic freedom and self determinism

    also, taxes, dammit
    We don't agree too often but we do on this, the basics of socialism is the government controls you, it comes in many flavors but self reliance is not one of the them.

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    Default Re: Why is the modern idea of "Socialism" evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I am sure if you attended school in a "poor" or minority school district, you would see a large difference between your beliefs about K-12 and the reality of K-12.

    I have no issues with the idea of free equal education thru college. But the reality is that is not going to happen. Stanford provides free tuition and room and board for those below the median:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ent%20outcomes.


    Guess who gets to go. The rich.

    You can select the college of your choice in a box near the top of the link. It is not just private schools. At state universities about 50% of students have parents in the top 20% of income - rich. You want free tuition for them. (The 2% of the student body who are poor - parents in the bottom 20%, get free tuition and room and board already. They just don't get let in.)
    When I graduated high school, in '64, I recall the awards program. Four football players got FULL SCHOLARSHIPS TO MAJOR UNIVERSITIES. The top academic scholarship was $200.

    I thought that spoke volumes.

    Equal is a noble goal we ought never stop trying to achieve. That said, rather than arguing about 'free' college, I believe we should argue to extend K-12 to K-15. The added three years can be aimed at academics or vocations. K-12 was here when I was born 76 years ago. Times have changed.
    Now he's gone. If only he'd be forgotten.

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