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Thread: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

  1. #71
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    There must always be a we. We must stand up for the George Floyds of the world ALWAYS.



    I have no doubt. The redneck cop who threatened to beat me up (years ago) had my full attention.

    If old white guys get treated differently, and I do agree that we do, then we need to do the reminding that others cannot.

    You missed the entire point.

    I’m not one of you.

    We? There is no we.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    News from Brooklyn Center (Minneapolis suburb) this morning: Cop shoots and kills driver at a traffic stop due to smell-nice thingies dangling from RV mirror. Don't be surprised if cops nationwide start being ambushed at night.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    OTOH, Rockford's Chief Of Police is retiring at the end of the month. He is young enough to get another Chief Position in a larger, more lucrative city, however, he says he is tired of police work after 35 years and just wants to move to a warmer climate withg his wife. He reminds Rockford that when he assumed the position five years ago he said he would only stay five years. He has greatly improved relations between the RPD and the community and morale among the RPD. Violent crime has decreased during his service. He says the job is about "leadership", not "crime fighting". In his first week as Chief he was off-duty, dressed in civies outside a shopping center, when a call went out that a perp had exited a nearby store. Spotting the perp, the Chief ran him down and apprehended him single-handed. An auspicious start, eh?

  4. #74
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    I have concluded that all this over excited behaviour when pulling a car over is indeed down to the idea that the driver might be carrying a gun.

    I don’t suppose any US highway patrol officer ever opened the conversation with the driver he had just pulled over with “And who do we think we are, Sir? Stirling Moss?” (which on one occasion got the reply, “Actually, yes I do!”).
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I have concluded that all this over excited behaviour when pulling a car over is indeed down to the idea that the driver might be carrying a gun.

    I don’t suppose any US highway patrol officer ever opened the conversation with the driver he had just pulled over with “And who do we think we are, Sir? Stirling Moss?” (which on one occasion got the reply, “Actually, yes I do!”).
    I think that is the case.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I have concluded that all this over excited behaviour when pulling a car over is indeed down to the idea that the driver might be carrying a gun.
    Certainly guns are an issue, and who is more likely to have a gun and use it unlawfully? Criminals. But that is not all - police take a chance every time they pull someone over. Again, this does not justify their excessive actions in this instance.
    https://qns.com/2018/11/driver-tries...p-queens-nypd/

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    “Motorists take a chance every time they are pulled over, so make sure you are servile and docile” is quite the rugged male conservatism.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    “Motorists take a chance every time they are pulled over, so make sure you are servile and docile” is quite the rugged male conservatism.
    Motorists don't take a chance every time they are pulled over, but if they behave belligerently they are certainly taking a risk. But feel free do as you please. Go for a ride this afternoon at 30-40 miles per hour above the speed limit, take your sweet time pulling over, and basically ignore all the orders of the police office when he/she gets out of their car. If that makes you feel more macho, good for you. At least you won't feel servile or docile. Let me know how that goes for ya

  9. #79
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Motorists don't take a chance every time they are pulled over, but if they behave belligerently they are certainly taking a risk. But feel free do as you please. Go for a ride this afternoon at 30-40 miles per hour above the speed limit, take your sweet time pulling over, and basically ignore all the orders of the police office when he/she gets out of their car. If that makes you feel more macho, good for you. At least you won't feel servile or docile. Let me know how that goes for ya
    Or drive 10MPH over the speed limit while black.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  10. #80
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Fascists, authoritarians, and commies all start off with “the victim deserved it”.

    the biggest killer of cops this year was covid19

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Or drive 10MPH over the speed limit while black.
    Colors do make a difference. Police do make pejorative passements of people based on their appearance. Color of skin, clothes, use of the language.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    Certainly guns are an issue, and who is more likely to have a gun and use it unlawfully? Criminals. . .
    It may actually be the case that 'criminals are more likely to have a gun and use it unlawfully', but I'd like to see some stats.

    Right now, police have killed 985 people over the past year.

    The number of people killed by criminals is very difficult to suss out.

    If you then restrict that number to include only 'career' criminals and exclude crimes of passion . . .

    If you frame the question differently and ask 'Who is more likely to get away with murder, a criminal or a cop?' . . .

    So, if we are being honest and we acknowledge that for every Derek Chauvin there are hundreds of cops aiding and abetting his actions and obstructing justice, the question then becomes 'Why do we allow a band of armed criminals to roam our streets with the power to kill their fellow citizens with utter impunity?'
    Rattling the teacups.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Fascists, authoritarians, and commies all start off with “the victim deserved it”.

    the biggest killer of cops this year was covid19
    Wow, nothing pejorative in that statement.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    I think I have told this story a couple of times.

    Years ago A co-worker and I were heading up to Manhattan to do a job. As he lived an hour north of here and along the way, we decided he would his car and I would follow in the company van, eventually leaving his car in a good safe place to make it easier for both of us to call it a night. He was driving a non-descript silver Saturn Coupe and I was driving a beaten up ford van. It was dented, it had mismatched body panels, and I think it might had had some graffiti on it. It was a rolling DOT failure. The perfect van for doing work in the Big City. As we waited at a light, a cop made a left in front of us and I swear the cop did a Linda Blair as he turned. His head literally swiveled back over his shoulder as he watched my friend sitting there at the light. Nobody got pulled over, but it was very obvious that the cop thought my co-worker and friend was worth staring at. My friend and once co-worker is half black and half Japanese.
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    It may actually be the case that 'criminals are more likely to have a gun and use it unlawfully', but I'd like to see some stats.

    Right now, police have killed 985 people over the past year.

    The number of people killed by criminals is very difficult to suss out.

    If you then restrict that number to include only 'career' criminals and exclude crimes of passion . . .

    If you frame the question differently and ask 'Who is more likely to get away with murder, a criminal or a cop?' . . .

    So, if we are being honest and we acknowledge that for every Derek Chauvin there are hundreds of cops aiding and abetting his actions and obstructing justice, the question then becomes 'Why do we allow a band of armed criminals to roam our streets with the power to kill their fellow citizens with utter impunity?'
    Well, that’s how we keep our nice things safe.

    I mean, some here are ready to beat people for property damage; and those are educated citizens.

    How else does society keep undesirables where they belong?

    The rich, the cops, the rest. That’s our world.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    It may actually be the case that 'criminals are more likely to have a gun and use it unlawfully', but I'd like to see some stats.

    Right now, police have killed 985 people over the past year.

    The number of people killed by criminals is very difficult to suss out.

    If you then restrict that number to include only 'career' criminals and exclude crimes of passion . . .

    If you frame the question differently and ask 'Who is more likely to get away with murder, a criminal or a cop?' . . .

    So, if we are being honest and we acknowledge that for every Derek Chauvin there are hundreds of cops aiding and abetting his actions and obstructing justice, the question then becomes 'Why do we allow a band of armed criminals to roam our streets with the power to kill their fellow citizens with utter impunity?'



    According to Politifact...
    Dr. Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, was part of a team that used the data to estimate how many illegally possessed guns.

    In the 13 states with the fewest restrictions on gun ownership, 40 percent of inmates illegally obtained the gun they used, Webster said. Only about 13 percent purchased the gun from a store or pawn shop.

    In the other 37 states, including New York state, 60 percent of inmates illegally procured the gun they used, Webster said.
    "If you look at the most stringent standards for legal gun ownership, it’s more like 65 percent," Webster said.

    https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...-crime-rep-fa/


    And in Pittsburgh....


    They found that in approximately 8 out of 10 cases, the perpetrator was not a lawful gun owner but rather in illegal possession of a weapon that belonged to someone else.



    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/27/new-evidence-confirms-what-gun-rights-advocates-have-been-saying-for-a-long-time-about-crime/

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post


    According to Politifact...
    Dr. Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, was part of a team that used the data to estimate how many illegally possessed guns.

    In the 13 states with the fewest restrictions on gun ownership, 40 percent of inmates illegally obtained the gun they used, Webster said. Only about 13 percent purchased the gun from a store or pawn shop.

    In the other 37 states, including New York state, 60 percent of inmates illegally procured the gun they used, Webster said.
    "If you look at the most stringent standards for legal gun ownership, it’s more like 65 percent," Webster said.

    https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...-crime-rep-fa/


    And in Pittsburgh....


    They found that in approximately 8 out of 10 cases, the perpetrator was not a lawful gun owner but rather in illegal possession of a weapon that belonged to someone else.



    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/27/new-evidence-confirms-what-gun-rights-advocates-have-been-saying-for-a-long-time-about-crime/
    Neither of your “stats” answered the question.

    Fact: A motorist is more likely to be killed by a cop in the Twin Cities than a cop is to be killed.

    If you don’t want to be lumped with scum, don’t mimic their talking points.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Neither of your “stats” answered the question.

    Fact: A motorist is more likely to be killed by a cop in the Twin Cities than a cop is to be killed.
    Thank you.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    So, if we are being honest and we acknowledge that for every Derek Chauvin there are hundreds of cops aiding and abetting his actions and obstructing justice, the question then becomes 'Why do we allow a band of armed criminals to roam our streets with the power to kill their fellow citizens with utter impunity?'
    Someone can correct me, but I believe there has already been a successful law suit against the police force or the city and I imagine that it reflects the fact that Chauvin had a significant number of complaints against him.
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Or drive 10MPH over the speed limit while black.

    or try 5 mph UNDER the limit


  21. #91
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Neither of your “stats” answered the question.


    If you don’t want to be lumped with scum, don’t mimic their talking points.
    Actually my stats directly answered the question. Are you just making this up as you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    It may actually be the case that 'criminals are more likely to have a gun and use it unlawfully', but I'd like to see some stats.
    Asked and answered
    Last edited by Boatbum; 04-12-2021 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Fact: A motorist is more likely to be killed by a cop in the Twin Cities than a cop is to be killed.

    Do you have any "stats" to support this "Fact" Typically that is what you would do here. I'm not saying you are wrong because I don't know, but you cite a fact with no source information to support it. I did a quick google on it and could not see anything supporting or refuting your statement, but surely you must have this at your fingertips?

    It seems to me that this would be a tough stat to have, as you would need to first define motorists: Any person with a registered car in Min/St Paul, estimated number of motorists daily, number of motorist miles per day. And measured against what? The number of officers actually patrolling the street? Number of officers employed in total? Number of officers killed during a routine traffic stop. I'm not even sure how you would measure something like this, but you seem to have this so I will look forward to the data.
    Last edited by Boatbum; 04-12-2021 at 12:31 PM.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    I find their treatment of him offensive. I hope he wins his lawsuit.

    I can certainly see both sides a little here. From the Lieutenant's perspective he did not feel he had done anything wrong and was wary of why he was being pulled over - totally understandable. From the Cop's perspective, .... he certainly did not know the race of he person when he initially signaled him to pull over for an expired temporary license. The lack of cooperation by the Lieutenant can reasonably be seen as a potential dangerous situation. Also, the first officer was alone and didn't know if it was an innocent oversight or someone that was potentially dangerous. I know many police and the put their lives on the line every time they pull someone over. All that said, it was obvious very early on, that this was a reasonable person who seemed genuinely scared. They could have descaled the situation rapidly and enlisted his cooperation if they had changed their demeanor.

    No matter how "unsafe" you feel, it will never go well to ignore the officers' instructions. I was pulled over a few years back (for speeding) in Rhode Island. The officer was very offensive bordering on abusive. When first pulled over, I lowered all windows, turned on the dome light (it was night) and kept my hands on the steering wheel the 10:00 and 2:00 position. When he asked for my license and registration, I first told him where they were and moved slowly to get them. In short, I went out of my why to reassure him that I was not a threat to him. Despite this he maintained his hostile behavior - I'm sure I had some cause for confronting him on this, but it would only make a bad situation worse. If you really feel you have a beef, you need to cooperate fully and then file a complaint afterwards - it really is the safest way to go - any resistance will only make things worse.
    How does one follow contradictory instructions; like keep your hands where I can see them and get out of the car (while seat belt is still buckled)?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Neither of your “stats” answered the question.

    Fact: A motorist is more likely to be killed by a cop in the Twin Cities than a cop is to be killed.

    If you don’t want to be lumped with scum, don’t mimic their talking points.
    If someone wishes to post a list of cops killed by drivers they pulled over, I'd look forward to it.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    https://www.odmp.org/agency/2518-min...ment-minnesota

    Official records show there have been 49 MPD officer LODs since 1884.

    MPD has killed 11 civilians since 2010...

    https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/minneapolis-police-fatal-encounters/89-660b1880-fd20-4bcf-adbc-85144d9c33e4


    But I think the OP was about two really poorly trained (best case scenario) officers in Virginia
    Steve

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  26. #96
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    https://www.odmp.org/agency/2518-min...ment-minnesota

    Official records show there have been 49 MPD officer LODs since 1884.

    MPD has killed 11 civilians since 2010...

    https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/minneapolis-police-fatal-encounters/89-660b1880-fd20-4bcf-adbc-85144d9c33e4


    But I think the OP was about two really poorly trained (best case scenario) officers in Virginia
    I would suspect it is poorly trained officers who do those things that make the entire force look bad. I have no idea how many police officers there are in the USA, but I'm willing to be it's a very small percentage of them that are killing drivers for traffic stops or other unacceptable reasons.

    A large part of the problem has been other cops sticking up for the cops that overstep the boudnaries.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post

    A large part of the problem has been other cops sticking up for the cops that overstep the boudnaries.
    The world of cops is a very insular one, they tend to be a very tight-knit tribe with a very "us against the world" culture. It may have something to do with the criminal element they get to deal with every day, very few smiles when the cops show up.

    The younger officers I've worked with in the past 5-6 years (a department under pretty tight DOJ scrutiny) are better but there is still a wall.

    Ultimately it's "us" the citizenry and juries that have let them get away with behavior we shouldn't have. Labor law relies a lot on precedent which is why (I think) firings get overturned. An arbiter (agreed to by both sides btw) isn't likely to stray too far outside the boundaries their predecessors laid down and in the old days cops got away with a lot more than we want to accept today.
    Steve

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  28. #98
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Yes, the OP was about poor discipline (which includes self discipline) and the panic “fight or flight” response.

    I don’t think my own nation’s Police are that special, and I do understand why it is important for Police forces to be organised at a level below that of the nation state, but the USA does seem to have a number of police organisations that seem to be just too small, and that seem to recruit with very little training being given.

    Going for your Taser, pulling out your gun instead and firing that by mistake isn’t a very clever thing to do.

    Mind you, our own top cop led an armed unit which killed a wholly innocent Spanish electrician because he was wearing a backpack and he vaulted over a turnstile. And she still got the job.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  29. #99
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Yes, the OP was about poor discipline (which includes self discipline) and the panic “fight or flight” response.

    I don’t think my own nation’s Police are that special, and I do understand why it is important for Police forces to be organised at a level below that of the nation state, but the USA does seem to have a number of police organisations that seem to be just too small, and that seem to recruit with very little training being given.

    Going for your Taser, pulling out your gun instead and firing that by mistake isn’t a very clever thing to do.

    Mind you, our own top cop led an armed unit which killed a wholly innocent Spanish electrician because he was wearing a backpack and he vaulted over a turnstile. And she still got the job.
    Andrew, this is - if I recall - NOT the first time in Minnesota that an officer shot an individual, while intending to use a Taser. I lived near Rochester, Mn. from 1993 until 2008, and I seem to recall that, in the early 2000's an individual was shot by police in Rochester (the officer was intending to Taser the victim, but the Taser unit, as well as the service pistol were similarly shaped, thus resulting in the shooting.) One would hope that the episode would play into 'lessons learned' for law enforcement so that this was not repeated. Cris or Keith, do you perhaps recall the incident I mentioned ?



    Rick
    Last edited by hawkeye54; 04-12-2021 at 04:06 PM. Reason: Edited for clarity

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeye54 View Post
    Andrew, this is - if I recall - NOT the first time in Minnesota that an officer shot an individual, while intending to use a Taser. I lived near Rochester, Mn. from 1993 until 2008, and I seem to recall that, in the early 2000's an individual was shot by police in Rochester (the officer was intending to Taser the victim, but the Taser unit, as well as the service pistol were similarly shaped, thus resulting in the shooting.) One would hope that the episode would play into 'lessons learned' for law enforcement so that this was not repeated. Cris or Keith, do you perhaps recall the incident I mentioned ?

    Rick
    Thanks, Rick.

    There may be a lesson for us all here - I bet the inquiry concluded that such a thing could not happen again...
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    On the night of Sept. 2, 2002, officer Greg Siem said he intended to grab his Taser stun gun to subdue Christopher Atak but instead grabbed his gun and fired, hitting Atak in the back. Officers said Atak had leaped in front of a squad car and yelled he wanted to die. The shooting was investigated by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and reviewed by the Ramsey County Attorney’s office and an Olmsted County grand jury. All said it was an accident. Atak sued in U.S. District Court and won a settlement of $900,000 last fall.
    An internal police review led to a change in policy; officers now wear their Tasers and guns on opposite sides of their gun belts. Also, the Tasers are now bright yellow rather than the same color as duty weapons.
    https://www.postbulletin.com/chief-o...f8d3ed58a.html


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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Let's ask the obvious question: If an officer fires their gun when they mean to fire their Taser, does that constitute such a degree of professional incompetence that they should at least be fired?
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Let's ask the obvious question: If an officer fires their gun when they mean to fire their Taser, does that constitute such a degree of professional incompetence that they should at least be fired?
    I'd like to know how you could confuse the two.
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    I'm sorry, if you're a police officer, YOU DON'T GET TO MAKE THAT KIND OF MISTAKE!!! Yes, I understand cops are human beings, but a gun instead of a taser??? She should be fired at the very minimum.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 04-12-2021 at 04:48 PM.
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    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    My understanding is that Carlos de Mendez (the dead electrician) didn't vault the turnstile. The policemen chasing him did....

    But yes, the small size of some US police forces is odd, and the Met shouldn't have got away with it....

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