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Thread: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

  1. #36
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Yes. First year after I had moved to Seattle (from Ann Arbor, Michigan), I was down town one afternoon in late July.

    Worked it that that was the kickoff of Fleet Week, ginormous aircraft carrier and many other ships in port. And [almost] everybody gets liberty... save Shore Patrol and the marines standing guard at the ships.
    The Vets For Peace Navy vessel Golden Rule, protests Fleet Week at every opportunity.

    One time we even got a salute from the US Navy while protesting them in San Diego

    https://www.facebook.com/goldenrulef...69812967290160


  2. #37
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    I watch a lot of Youtube police videos, and I saw this video (the complete version) several days before it became national news.

    My reaction, when I first saw it: BOTH sides were indeed at fault.

    There is no question in my mind that the two cops went WAY over the top, in the way that they conducted the stop... especially since the only 'probable cause' for the stop was their inability to see the temporary tag taped to the rear window of the car. I didn't see anything that would have justified the need to draw firearms as they approached the car.....

    ....at least, initially.

    However, at that point, the army officer behaved foolishly. Refusing to obey the orders to exit the car did absolutely nothing to support his efforts to demonstrate that he wasn't guilty of anything... it just served to raise even more suspicion on the part of two 'Rambo' cops whose suspicions were already irrationally elevated. He said repeatedly that he was frightened... but his behavior engender far more risk, on his part, than if he had immediately obeyed the cops and got out of the car.

    I don't think the army officer was guilty of anything, other than being foolish... but the two cops deserve some significant form of departmental punishment for THEIR bad behavior.

    Just my opinion... YMMV.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  3. #38
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Impressive police force you have there.

    It'd be a shame if something were to happen to it.

    Rattling the teacups.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    In the prevailing atmosphere between police and anyone black I think he had every reason to be very afraid and excessively cautious. Scenario: Police are behind his vehicle cocked and loaded, he opens the door, exits the car, the police 'have reason' to think he's reaching for a purported gun (after all he is black) and 'fear for their lives'………….. bang bang, a dozen or so bullets………… and they are the only ones left to tell corroborating stories.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I watch a lot of Youtube police videos, and I saw this video (the complete version) several days before it became national news.

    My reaction, when I first saw it: BOTH sides were indeed at fault.

    There is no question in my mind that the two cops went WAY over the top, in the way that they conducted the stop... especially since the only 'probable cause' for the stop was their inability to see the temporary tag taped to the rear window of the car. I didn't see anything that would have justified the need to draw firearms as they approached the car.....

    ....at least, initially.

    However, at that point, the army officer behaved foolishly. Refusing to obey the orders to exit the car did absolutely nothing to support his efforts to demonstrate that he wasn't guilty of anything... it just served to raise even more suspicion on the part of two 'Rambo' cops whose suspicions were already irrationally elevated. He said repeatedly that he was frightened... but his behavior engender far more risk, on his part, than if he had immediately obeyed the cops and got out of the car.

    I don't think the army officer was guilty of anything, other than being foolish... but the two cops deserve some significant form of departmental punishment for THEIR bad behavior.

    Just my opinion... YMMV.
    So how does one keep his hands where the cops can see them and unbuckle his belt?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    And with the Chauvin matter in the headlines?

    The question arises, were the cops attempting to set him up to be shot?

  7. #42
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    And with the Chauvin matter in the headlines?

    The question arises, were the cops attempting to set him up to be shot?
    No way to know.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Dead men tell no tales

    It would be interesting to review that cops arrest record to see if his use of the taser and or lethal force was biased toward blacks. But hey, it is Virginia, I have lived there and had dealings with the police there. No problem if you are white and from inside the beltway, big problem if you are not.
    Virginia did not take the repeal of Jim Crow very well at all. A little scrolling through here will be enlightening: http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/list/2.html and this is largely inside the beltway. When you get a little ways south racist speech is less guarded

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    I think it’s very weird for the police officers to treat a soldier like this and soldiers are should be respected in the US.
    Last edited by Capt.Gustav; 04-11-2021 at 06:18 PM.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    In the prevailing atmosphere between police and anyone black I think he had every reason to be very afraid and excessively cautious.
    Nevertheless, he did what he needed to do. He got to a public place with witnesses and cameras. He needed to put his hands into plain view as they said and step out of the car. There was no choice here.
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

  11. #46
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    I wonder if his military training had anything to do with that, or if he just is very aware of the dangers in his own country.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt.Gustav View Post
    I think it’s very weird for the police officers to treat a soldier like this and soldiers are should be respected in the US.
    His regalia can be purchased in any cheap outlet place in the US. It means nothing.

    The cops have no way to know whether he's what he says or not, and since he's black, they assume he's lying.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

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  13. #48
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    And with the Chauvin matter in the headlines?

    The question arises, were the cops attempting to set him up to be shot?
    More likely they were taking out their self-important rage about the way Chauvin's being treated on the guy.

    Cops really tend to an overblown sense of their power and importance. The military has the same problem.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

    Photographer of sailing and sailboats
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  14. #49
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    I'd prefer not lumping ALL cops together this way. Question is; How many 'bad apples' can be tolerated?

    We have a pretty poor history of juries convicting cops. There have been some lawsuits, but the taxpayers pay, not the individual cops.

    One thing the present trial may do is break the 'blue wall', hopefully not just for this case.

    Cops need citizens to step forward as witnesses. Citizens need cops to step up and be witnesses to fellow cops overstepping boundaries.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    More likely they were taking out their self-important rage about the way Chauvin's being treated on the guy.

    Cops really tend to an overblown sense of their power and importance. The military has the same problem.
    my guess is they were scared
    amped on adrenaline
    significant amount of peer pressure
    poorly trained
    poorly managed/led
    no de-escalation skills

    just a guess
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  16. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    His regalia can be purchased in any cheap outlet place in the US. It means nothing.

    The cops have no way to know whether he's what he says or not, and since he's black, they assume he's lying.

    Did you know that it is illegal to wear an Army uniform (or even any distinctive part) if you're not in the Army?

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/771

    "Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear -

    (1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or

    (2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps."

    There are a few exceptions (retired officers, actors in a play or movie, etc.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  17. #52
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    Default “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I wonder if his military training had anything to do with that, or if he just is very aware of the dangers in his own country.

    Any black man in the USA over the age of about 10 (maybe younger) is quite aware of the dangers of getting involved in any interaction with the police.

    Just Google Growing up black in the USA "the talk"

    https://www.gpb.org/news/2020/06/26/the-talk-rite-of-passage-in-black-families-even-when-the-parent-police-officer

    https://news.usc.edu/183102/the-talk-usc-black-parents-children-racism-america/
    Last edited by Nicholas Carey; 04-11-2021 at 09:33 PM.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  18. #53
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”


  19. #54
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Bit sad when the front line is your town and the hostiles are the local police.
    be modest, and be proud of it.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    I guess when blacks were property, rather than human they could be shot with no repercussion about like a dog or a farm animal. Hanging a dog has problems related to cruelty.
    Humans are hard-wired to resist change.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Fired...

    "Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam said Sunday he is directing Virginia State Police to investigate a traffic stop during which two police officers held an Army second lieutenant at gunpoint months ago in the southeast part of the state. Town officials said later that night that one officer was fired."


    Northam (D) said the incident — in which body-camera footage shows police pepper-spraying, striking and handcuffing Caron Nazario — “is disturbing and angered me.”


    The federal lawsuit, obtained by The Washington Post, was filed in the Eastern District of Virginia on April 2. Nazario is seeking at least $1 million in damages and for the court to rule that Gutierrez and Crocker violated his constitutional rights, specifically the Fourth Amendment. The lawsuit claims police also threatened to end Nazario’s military career if he spoke out about the incident.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...ece_story.html

  22. #57
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    My solution to this is whenever ANY member of a given police force does something like this, the government takes away all weapons for the entire police force for 30 days. Into the weaponless penalty box. Each new infraction doubles the previous penalty time. Consider it part of "red flag" laws. After a while, peer pressure may begin to kick in, better officers against worse officers.
    When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    According to our news another black man has been shot and died as a result of a traffic violation stop in Minnesota, there are protests already.
    https://www.usnews.com/news/us/artic...-stop-incident

  24. #59
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    A few years ago I was driving through the edge of town, headed for home, at about 10:30 at night. I got pulled over. It turns out I had a headlight out, but I didn't notice.

    The cop came to the window and barked "Put your hands on the wheel!"

    I did as commanded.

    "Show me your license and registration!"

    "I can't."

    "Why not?"

    "You told me to put my hands on the wheel..."

    And that is how it progressed. Yes, I was a smart ass and yes I probably pissed him off. Good. I only did as he asked after I thoroughly checked that he understood everything I needed to do to comply. He was an @ss and I treated him as such. What was he going to do? Was he going to arrest me for doing exactly as he ordered?
    You are a 60 something white guy. How well would that same conversation go down with a 20 something black guy?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  25. #60
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    In the video the Police officers all seem agitated and over excited. This was just a driver being pulled over for not showing a regular number plate.

    In my experience of being pulled over whilst driving, by the Police, in Britain, I’ve never experienced that. Always very calm, speaking slowly and clearly.

    I put it down to fear that the driver might have a firearm?
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    This happened in a suburb of Minneapolis yesterday afternoon.

    The dash cam and body cam footage will be hard to watch.

    This will heighten tensions around the Derek Chauvin trial ten miles away.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    You are a 60 something white guy. How well would that same conversation go down with a 20 something black guy?
    In Falcon Heights Minnesota Phil Castile complied.

    During a routine traffic stop he told the officer he had a registered gun in the car.

    The cop told him not to take it out. He said I won’t.

    The cop asked for his license. Phil reached into his jacket. The cop shot him seven times.

    The cop was acquitted.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Of course he was, despite the set up. 7 times so he couldn't talk.
    The war continues…………….

  29. #64
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    You are a 60 something white guy. How well would that same conversation go down with a 20 something black guy?
    Probably not well, but it should. If a dumb-@ass, overly aggressive cop can't give clear directions calmly, then all we can do is slow him down.
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    In Falcon Heights Minnesota Phil Castile complied.

    During a routine traffic stop he told the officer he had a registered gun in the car.

    The cop told him not to take it out. He said I won’t.

    The cop asked for his license. Phil reached into his jacket. The cop shot him seven times.

    The cop was acquitted.
    Obscene!
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Probably not well, but it should. If a dumb-@ass, overly aggressive cop can't give clear directions calmly, then all we can do is slow him down.

    There is no we. That’s what some of you don’t get.

    When some hyper aggressive maniac draws down on you, screaming, you won’t be so blasé. Trust me.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    There is no we. That’s what some of you don’t get.
    There must always be a we. We must stand up for the George Floyds of the world ALWAYS.

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    When some hyper aggressive maniac draws down on you, screaming, you won’t be so blasé. Trust me.
    I have no doubt. The redneck cop who threatened to beat me up (years ago) had my full attention.

    If old white guys get treated differently, and I do agree that we do, then we need to do the reminding that others cannot.
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

  33. #68
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    Agree with CW Smith.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  34. #69
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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    I wonder if/when this sort of thing ends.

    Lawrence O'Donnell made an interesting comment that police are an extremely costly service, as lawsuits against them can be millions of dollars, which taxpayers pay.

    Better training would be a good investment. Holding individual cops accountable would be a good idea. Avoiding incidents like this one would benefit all of us.

    I'm white, and I've never been hassled by cops, but as I've posted before, we had a black supervisor on legitimate route inspection in Clifton, and the cops arrested him for following the letter carrier, who vouched for him, as did two postmasters. He still spend the night in jail. A black 'sub' was delivering mail in a white part of town, and the cops were called. He came very close to being arrested simply for delivering mail while black.

    MLK marched for peace and equality. When he got shot, people marched for a holiday in his name. Once the holiday came, it seemed no one was marching for peace and equality. The holiday have become the cause.

    Time went by and more incidents have made the news, many with the help of cell phone videos. Still, even with video, juries have been prone to acquit police who kill black men. I believe that's simple math: any group of 12 random people is likely to have two or three racists who will not convict a cop for killing a black man.

    I tent to expect they'll be a racist or two on the trial of the killing of Mr. Floyd. No matter how damning the evidence is, I'll not be surprised if the cop is not convicted.
    Last edited by John Smith; 04-12-2021 at 08:37 AM.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: “Impressive Police Force you have there...”

    I find their treatment of him offensive. I hope he wins his lawsuit.

    I can certainly see both sides a little here. From the Lieutenant's perspective he did not feel he had done anything wrong and was wary of why he was being pulled over - totally understandable. From the Cop's perspective, .... he certainly did not know the race of he person when he initially signaled him to pull over for an expired temporary license. The lack of cooperation by the Lieutenant can reasonably be seen as a potential dangerous situation. Also, the first officer was alone and didn't know if it was an innocent oversight or someone that was potentially dangerous. I know many police and the put their lives on the line every time they pull someone over. All that said, it was obvious very early on, that this was a reasonable person who seemed genuinely scared. They could have descaled the situation rapidly and enlisted his cooperation if they had changed their demeanor.

    No matter how "unsafe" you feel, it will never go well to ignore the officers' instructions. I was pulled over a few years back (for speeding) in Rhode Island. The officer was very offensive bordering on abusive. When first pulled over, I lowered all windows, turned on the dome light (it was night) and kept my hands on the steering wheel the 10:00 and 2:00 position. When he asked for my license and registration, I first told him where they were and moved slowly to get them. In short, I went out of my why to reassure him that I was not a threat to him. Despite this he maintained his hostile behavior - I'm sure I had some cause for confronting him on this, but it would only make a bad situation worse. If you really feel you have a beef, you need to cooperate fully and then file a complaint afterwards - it really is the safest way to go - any resistance will only make things worse.

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