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Thread: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

  1. #1
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    Default Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    If you've been following my "Tip 'n roll kayak" thread, you may have noticed that it went bad. My last two posts were on Page 2 of the thread, but Page 2 will not display -- all I see is a gray screen.

    So I'll pick up here where I left off in the build of a "Shrike R" plywood kayak designed for easy rolling. This is a stitch and glue boat of 3mm okoume ply, downsized to float my weight without much buoyancy to spare.

    Page one of the original thread is still available here.

    So here's where I am now -- the foredeck has been fit and lashed down. I'll give the goo lots of time to cure because there's a fair bit of tension along those edges. The aft deck is in place but not epoxied yet.

    Foredeck glued down.jpg
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    One of the posts in the previous thread suggested I might have something to offer by way of rolling technique. And my answer is not really. But there are tons of Utube videos on rolling -- some not so helpful but others both helpful and entertaining. A favorite of mine are Helen Wilson's videos. Here's a fun one:




    This Greenland rolling is all about entertaining oneself on a hot day. But yes, it's good for safety, too.
    -Dave

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    And if you want a more technical study, you can't do better than Eiichi Ito's animated videos.

    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Lookin' good...have you decided what to do about the spray skirt?

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Jones View Post
    Lookin' good...have you decided what to do about the spray skirt?
    No, I'm stuck on that one. A local dealer has a skirt that was made for an NDK with the old ocean style cockpit he thinks might fit. But the dimensions I have for that boat suggest it will be too big. Short term fix is to take the smallest skirt I have and pinch the front end with a cable tie. Not pretty, but it works.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    The decking is all glued down and I've done the initial trim on the edges. Some fairing and sanding yet to be taken care of and then fiberglass. So for the first time the shape is clear. It reminds me of some of the early wood performance kayaks I've seen in museums. I'm going to keep it as simple and clean in appearance as possible. Minimal deck rigging, no grab handles, no hatch forward and all one color - Pettit Hatteras White. BTW, the cockpit will be cut wider than it is here - opened to meet the coaming after that assembly has been glued down.

    31 Deck trimmed.jpg
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II


    The tuilik, traditional (more or less) rolling attire. There are patterns out there to make one's own.
    Last edited by DGentry; 04-02-2021 at 09:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Yes, Dave. This is what the serious folks do. A friend who's into rolling bigtime always wears a tuilik. It seems that part of that deal is to not wear a PFD underneath it -- more freedom of movement, easier to bend way back and forward for the rolls.

    So I'm not going that route at this point. But I did ask a third skirt company about a custom build, and the answer from Immersion Research or IR was "we don't do that anymore." But also in the reply was a suggestion to make my own skirt with links to instructions. The instructions were for a neoprene skirt, which is all cut and glue work. Didn't want to do that, but I did take the suggestion to heart and ordered some stretch waterproof teflon coated nylon to take a shot at putting one together on the sewing machine. Two yards of fabric should make a skirt plus a cockpit cover. What could possibly go wrong?
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    It's good that you make it from waterproof material Dave and here's why.

    I recently bought a pair of marine binoculars. When I told my wife that they float and they're waterproof before she'd had any time to think about it she said, "Oh good! That way if you drop them in the water they won't get wet!"

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    It's good that you make it from waterproof material Dave and here's why.

    I recently bought a pair of marine binoculars. When I told my wife that they float and they're waterproof before she'd had any time to think about it she said, "Oh good! That way if you drop them in the water they won't get wet!"
    Hah! And I'm sure she'd be delighted to know that you reported that here. BTW, who makes marine grade binocs that float?
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    She's a funny girl in that innocent French Canadian way. A guy could fall in love with a girl like that.

    These are US Camel, found on Amazon.ca. I was disappointed to learn that one must first focus one eye then focus the other. I guess that if I'm in a hurry I can just use them as a monocular.

    Anyway, study up, there are a lot of options.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    ..The tuilik, traditional (more or less) rolling attire. There are patterns out there to make one's own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Yes, Dave. This is what the serious folks do. A friend who's into rolling bigtime always wears a tuilik. It seems that part of that deal is to not wear a PFD underneath it -- more freedom of movement, easier to bend way back and forward for the rolls.
    ....
    My all time favourite rolling deck was the Harishok "LifeDeck" - first introduced at the '79 world slalom championships and outlawed sometime around '85..

    This resembled the Tuilik minus the head covering and the arms - the tube part being held up by a pair of braces (suspenders) over the shoulders. The buoyancy was supplied by a stack of foam slabs on the underside of the deck - between the legs leaving the torso unhindered and free to move both fore and aft and laterally. for maximum waterproofness add a dry cag.

    These were very very popular in the competition world and I've seen a number of swims by wearers so they are reasonably effective PFDs.


    Period report - https://www.chalfontparkcc.org.uk/ar...wm_Page_16.jpg
    Period advert - https://www.chalfontparkcc.org.uk/ar...wm_Page_06.jpg

    Picture of the device in use - Stern paddler (me)

    Last edited by P.I. Stazzer-Newt; 04-03-2021 at 10:32 AM.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Back to the project. We were away for a bit so the boat didn't get much attention. But the finishing has started. I've seen some questions about fairing and finishing plywood boats lately, and it seems everyone has a slightly different approach. This is the part I struggle with the most, no question. But here's what I did: After the glass was on and peel ply stripped, I squeegeed on a creamy mix of epoxy, Microlight 410 and some titanium dioxide powder to put some color in it so I could see what was going on. (Of course, I'm looking to painting this boat.) I then sanded it out, and then went back with a second very thin coat of epoxy and filler. I skipped the pigment on this coat, it seems to make it harder to sand out. After some serious sanding, this is where the hull stands now.

    I'll sand some more and then roll on a coat of unthickened epoxy with some pigment in it. Ideally, at that point it would be ready for primer. But my reality is that this will show up all sorts of imperfections that I'll be chasing down until I reach the "Screw it, that's good enough" stage.

    I think I mentioned that this will be a white boat, so the moment it sees the sunshine all the goofs will jump out for the world to see.

    Bottom faired.jpg
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Back at it again after a serious slowdown with some travel time and other stuff keeping me out of the shop.

    So this afternoon I got the cockpit coaming bonded down. The instructions call for building it up in place with bits of 3mm ply initially and then adding layers of fiberglass to create the walls, and then more ply and glass to build out the rim. Seemed to be very fussy and the result is a thin structure. So I stuck with what I've done before -- laminate the shape over a form. That can get fussy, too, but the end result is a coaming with some body to it, which looks more traditional and is probably less prone to damage.

    BTW, Most of the wood in it is Alaskan Yellow Cedar, which is what I had on hand in sufficient size and length. But it worked very nicely and produced a light piece. We're still under 25 pounds all up.

    Cockpit coaming bonded 2.jpg
    Last edited by Woxbox; 05-08-2021 at 04:54 PM.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Back at it again after a serious slowdown with some travel time and other stuff keeping me out of the shop.

    So this afternoon I got the cockpit coaming bonded down. The instructions call for building it up in place with bits of 3mm ply initially and then adding layers of fiberglass to create the walls, and then more ply and glass to build out the rim. Seemed to be very fussy and the result is a thin structure. So I stuck with what I've done before -- laminate the shape over a form. That can get fussy, too, but the end result is a coaming with some body to it, which looks more traditional and is probably less prone to damage.

    BTW, Most of the wood in it is Alaskan Yellow Cedar, which is what I had on hand in sufficient size and length. But it worked very nicely and produced a light piece. We're still under 25 pounds all up.

    Cockpit coaming bonded 2.jpg
    That is dreamy wood. I wish I had a massive pile of it.

    Boat looks slick.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    AYC is very nice to work with. I tripped across it when I went to a cedar supplier in the New Jersey pinelands. Surely they'd have some Eastern White Cedar, which is what I wanted for a kayak paddle or two. But they didn't -- but did have a shipment of Alaskan Yellow Cedar coming in from the far side of the country. So I stopped back when that load was delivered to the lumberyard and bought three big planks of it. Still have enough for a couple more paddles and then some.

    The cockpit I think emphasizes how skinny and flat the hull is. Before that, there was no scale reference. I'm just hoping I can keep it upright most of the time.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Progress has really slowed. It's outdoor weather here in Pennsylvania and I've been drawn to other stuff. But today I squeezed into the boat for the first time. Goodness. My kneecaps need to be removed.

    Or at least that was my first thought. At the outset I did take measurements with various mockups before settling on the height of the masik - the curved deck beam that defines the shape at the front of the cockpit. But I had somehow figured I could slide in with my knees centered under the deck. Well, I can't do that. The knees each go in about 4" off center.

    So after a bit of concern, I determined exactly where it was uncomfortably tight and hit the back edge of the masik with a spoke shave. It's wide and thick enough to tolerate some judicious trimming. So now I can slide in and out, kneecaps in place. But it is snug.

    Here we are with the first coat of primer.

    First primer coat.jpg
    -Dave

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    OK, I did it. I rolled and tipped the tip and roll kayak. First coat of Petit Hatteras off white.

    20210523_163940.jpg
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    A tip of the hat and a drum roll for you David!

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Thanks, Gib. There's a heat wave out here and I'm itching to get this boat wet.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Great!
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    This looks Great

    Can we have some video?
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    No video yet, but I just declared the boat done. If the thunderstorms hold off tomorrow, I'll dunk it in the lake. Final weight: 29 pounds. I didn't keep careful track of costs, but I think there's about $600 of materials in it.

    End of project -- the shop is a disaster zone but the boat is ready to move out.

    Done - 6-7-21.jpg

    Complete 6-7-21.jpg

    And the barebones cockpit.

    Cockpit outfitted.jpg
    -Dave

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    ...and one more gratuitous photo of the boat in its natural environment.

    As I expected, it's tender - but not too much. It does roll with extreme ease. My biggest disappointment is the "Hot Seat" I installed. I'm a skinny guy, and get the ridges on the sides are still too close to allow me to settle into the seat. That's going to be replaced, possibly with a sheet of 3/4" foam that will wrap up the sides of the hull. I've done that in another Greenland boat and it works nicely.

    So now I need to work on my repertoire so I can create that highly anticipated video. Standard roll, storm roll, pry, side scull and butterfly all came easily today. It'll be fun working on this.

    Afloat at Beltzville.jpg

    And of course my wife had to get a photo of the old man squeezing his bony knees into the cockpit....

    Squeezing in.jpg
    -Dave

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Looking very very promising.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Turned out really nice! Anxiously awaiting the rolling video. Did you figure out the roll by yourself or did you have some instruction?

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    Default Re: Tip 'n roll kayak - part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Jones View Post
    Turned out really nice! Anxiously awaiting the rolling video. Did you figure out the roll by yourself or did you have some instruction?
    Lots of coaching and studying the many YouTube videos. It's not really hard to do, but most people try to learn to roll in boats that are harder to roll and get frustrated.
    -Dave

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