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Thread: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    The scary part to me is that the police were happy to slowly murder a man in broad daylight- in public- and while being filmed! Makes me shudder at what some victims must go through when its in a location with no eyes on it and no cameras- cops body cams or others. JayInOz

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Newspapers are reporting that Chauvin's record of 16 (I think) previous excessive force complaints will not be presented to the jury.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    It is rare that I think watching a man hang for his crimes would give me pleasure.

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    The lieutenant's testimony was damning. So much for the blue wall of silence.
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Chauvin ought to hang. He murdered a man in cold blood in public.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    The testimony last night from Chauvin’s supervisor, and testimony from the head of the homicide unit this morning, was damning. Both said that he didn’t need to restrain him, and that the prone position is known to be dangerous.

    In cross-examination defense tried to chip away at it, but didn’t make much headway.

    Lots of trial to go. So far prosecution has been clear and effective.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Lots of trial to go. So far prosecution has been clear and effective.
    I keep thinking back to the OJ trial. This prosecution team is so very much more professional than that trial that it can hardly be described. They have been organized, systematic, and clear.

    I also keep thinking, "It has come to this? We require this abundance of evidence to find a murderous cop guilty?"
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I keep thinking back to the OJ trial. This prosecution team is so very much more professional than that trial that it can hardly be described. They have been organized, systematic, and clear.

    I also keep thinking, "It has come to this? We require this abundance of evidence to find a murderous cop guilty?"
    He hasn't been found guilty yet, and might not be.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I keep thinking back to the OJ trial. This prosecution team is so very much more professional than that trial that it can hardly be described. They have been organized, systematic, and clear.

    I also keep thinking, "It has come to this? We require this abundance of evidence to find a murderous cop guilty?"
    Low-key Midwesterners not mugging for the cameras. I've also been impressed with most of the testimony, especially the police and EMT. Testimony by the Chief of Police could be really powerful.

    Agreed with Tom that no one has been convicted yet, but the evidence seems very strong that Chauvin did not follow police training (the defense has signaled that they will argue that policy allows "improvisation") and that even if he followed policy at the beginning he took it too long and too far.

    I also think the argument that the crowd was dangerous and distracting is a joke. Watch the video - it's about a dozen plus or minus who are saying "Hey, Bro, check his pulse! He's not moving, let him up!"

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Week two begins shortly.

    The testimony that damns Chauvin the most, so far, was Homicide Dept head Zimmerman saying Chauvin’s actions were inappropriate and dangerous, and that he had a duty to protect Mr. Floyd.

    But testimony that should last, if justice is served, is that where the trope of angry scary black people was used shamelessly and failed. Angry? No, simply a dozen people crying out in dismay as they watched a policeman murder an innocent man.

    I can’t stop thinking about the exchange between lawyer for the defense Nelson, and witness Hansen (a white female firefighter) and Williamson (a black man martial artist):

    Hansen rejected Nelson's assertion that she "got louder and more frustrated and upset" as the minutes ticked by and Chauvin remained on Floyd's neck. She responded that she was "more desperate," adding that she had identified herself as a firefighter. In earlier testimony, Hansen, 27, said she approached the scene and offered to help.
    Hansen said she didn't become angry until after Floyd was loaded into the ambulance "and there was no point in trying to reason with them anymore because they had just killed somebody."
    Nelson pressed Hansen to describe other people in the crowd as "upset or angry."
    A visibly upset Hansen shot back, "I don't know if you've seen anybody be killed, but it's quite upsetting."
    Hansen was the final witness to testify Tuesday. Of the six people who took the stand, Nelson cross-examined four of them and pushed each to suggest that the crowd of onlookers had been angry. He repeatedly asked them if they themselves shouted at officers or heard others do so.
    "Do you recall saying, 'I dare you to touch me like that. I swear I'll slap the f--- out of both of you'?" Nelson asked Donald Williams II, who can be heard in bystander video cursing at the police officers at the scene and calling them "bums," after watching as Floyd stopped moving.
    “Yeah I did. I meant it," Williams responded.
    "So again, sir, it's fair to say that you grew angrier and angrier?" Nelson asked.
    "No," Williams replied. "I grew professional and professional. And I stayed in my body."
    "You can't paint me out to be angry," Williams added.
    Williams, a former wrestler who said he was trained in mixed martial arts, including chokeholds, was among onlookers shouting at Chauvin to get off Floyd. Williams told Minnesota Assistant Attorney General Matthew Frank that he remained at the scene even after Floyd had been taken away by paramedics and called 911 because "I believe I witnessed a murder." He appeared emotional and wiped his eyes as audio of that call played in court.

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Low-key Midwesterners not mugging for the cameras. I've also been impressed with most of the testimony, especially the police and EMT. Testimony by the Chief of Police could be really powerful.

    Agreed with Tom that no one has been convicted yet, but the evidence seems very strong that Chauvin did not follow police training (the defense has signaled that they will argue that policy allows "improvisation") and that even if he followed policy at the beginning he took it too long and too far.

    I also think the argument that the crowd was dangerous and distracting is a joke. Watch the video - it's about a dozen plus or minus who are saying "Hey, Bro, check his pulse! He's not moving, let him up!"
    It's clear he did not follow department policy, according to upper-echelon witnesses. That may prove to be very different from getting a jury to convict a police officer for murder, though I think it's the right call in this case.

    Sadly, my trust in police systems (not necessarily all individual officers) has eroded to the point where I have to wonder whether the "he didn't follow police procedures" is, in part, more of an attempt to protect the department than it is to protect the rule of law. One police officer convicted for murder is a small price to pay to avoid the massive reforms needed in policing.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    I also think the argument that the crowd was dangerous and distracting is a joke.
    You didn't think those teenage girls were scary?

    What a pathetic defense!
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    What a pathetic defense!
    They're going to argue that George Floyd's drug use was the real cause of his death, even though all the autopsies and medical examiners' reports say otherwise. They're going to argue that Chauvin followed correct police procedure, even though all his superiors on the force say he didn't. They're going to argue that the crowd was threatening, although the evidence shows this is false, and it has nothing to do with kneeling on the guy's neck anyway. What else do they have? I don't envy the defense attorneys; It's looking worse for Chauvin by the day.
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    I still think there’s a chance some stubborn SOB on the journey won’t convict just because.

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    I still think there’s a chance some stubborn SOB on the journey won’t convict just because.
    It's certainly possible. One of the times I was on a jury, there was a guy like that. Eleven of us thought it was as obvious as anything ever gets, but he wouldn't be convinced. Fortunately a very minor case.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    I still think there’s a chance some stubborn SOB on the journey won’t convict just because.
    All it takes is 1, right? And the defense is trying to give them a reason.
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream


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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Chief Arradando back testifying after lunch break. The prosecutors are carefully walking through policy, procedure, and training and the Minneapolis police chain of command from Chauvin’s supervisor up through the chief will say his actions were “totally unnecessary”, “just uncalled for”. Hopefully Chief Arradando will remain clear and on this same script.

    Has there ever been a case of a police officer accused of unnecessary force where the police department itself does not defend the actions of the cop? There may be justice for George.

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    I have been very impressed by the officers who have testified so far. I am optimistic, but as pointed out it only takes one juror to hand the jury.
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    How definitive can you get? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this is the Minneapolis Chief of Police.


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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Yesterday I saw a prosecutor ask a witness "How did witnessing these events change your life?" Not a peep from the defense.

    What in the wide world does that have to do with Chauvin?

    Does everything have to be a frickin TV show?
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Osborne, the defense is arguing that the police felt threatened by the crowd. If I remember correctly, the prosecution asked that question of one of the (several) children who witnessed the murder and formed the crowd that the police supposedly feared. She said it made her sad. That was the measure of the threat. It had everything to do with Chauvin.
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    So why in the world would feeling threatened by the crowd possibly be a justification for kneeling on the guy's neck? Well, if that's all you've got . . .

    I'm very glad I'm not one of Chauvin's defense lawyers.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    So why in the world would feeling threatened by the crowd possibly be a justification for kneeling on the guy's neck? Well, if that's all you've got . . .

    I'm very glad I'm not one of Chauvin's defense lawyers.
    That and the "He died from drugs" claim, which the coroner says is untrue, seem to be his defense.
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Osborne, the defense is arguing that the police felt threatened by the crowd. If I remember correctly, the prosecution asked that question of one of the (several) children who witnessed the murder and formed the crowd that the police supposedly feared. She said it made her sad. That was the measure of the threat. It had everything to do with Chauvin.
    It's Chauvin's state of mind that is at issue, and not that it was a correct assessment of the crowd, but a reasonable one. It's their behavior as observed by him that mattters, not their state of mind.

    In any case the question is directed to their state of mind after, not during the event, which is entirely irrelevant. Chauvin had no way of being aware of that, and so it could have no effect on his state of mind at the time, and so, who gives a S?
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Yesterday I saw a prosecutor ask a witness "How did witnessing these events change your life?" Not a peep from the defense.

    What in the wide world does that have to do with Chauvin?

    Does everything have to be a frickin TV show?
    Probably because Minnesota law allows these people to be considered as crime victims.

    In Minnesota law, a victim is anyone who incurs "loss or harm as a result of a crime, including a good faith effort to prevent a crime." Some of the witnesses testified that they sought to stop Chauvin from using force against Floyd, and even called the police to report his actions. They also described the emotional harm they have endured.
    https://www.startribune.com/explaine...ses/600041181/

    Plus, I think the Defense screwed up. In opening statements they said they’d show that Chauvin was influenced by a scary out of control mob, leading him to take extra efforts to restrain Floyd.

    Did they not watch the video?

    The witnesses were pretty amazing to me. The defense attorney tried to goad one of them, Mr. Williams, into saying he was angry and was going to be violent. Classic dangerous angry black man trope. Williams had none of that - said he stayed professional and stayed in his body, and expressed deep remorse that he couldn’t help Floyd. Same thing from the other witnesses.

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    The image of Chauvin looking quite unconcerned, with his hand in his pocket, while kneeling on a dying mans neck, seems to make it difficult to believe he was feeling threatened by the crowd.

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    He clearly killed him, or at least contributed to his demise. But for it to be murder, wouldn't he have to know that what he was doing would kill him? If he has 16 other excessive force complaints, without being fired, or killing anyone else, one could argue that he did not think it would kill him and, regardless of what the Chief says is policy, could consider that what he was doing was "normal."

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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    The police in America have killed five thousand four hundred people in the last five years. Maybe "normal" isn't good enough. JayInOz

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    He clearly killed him, or at least contributed to his demise. But for it to be murder, wouldn't he have to know that what he was doing would kill him?
    I would think that comes under the heading of "Common Knowledge". Don't you know that kneeling on someone's neck can lead to serious injury and death? I would hope you do.
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  31. #101
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    He clearly killed him, or at least contributed to his demise. But for it to be murder, wouldn't he have to know that what he was doing would kill him? If he has 16 other excessive force complaints, without being fired, or killing anyone else, one could argue that he did not think it would kill him and, regardless of what the Chief says is policy, could consider that what he was doing was "normal."
    Not under third degree murder or manslaughter. Maybe under second degree. Definitely under first degree. Chauvin is on trial for manslaughter, 3rd and 2nd.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    He clearly killed him, or at least contributed to his demise. But for it to be murder, wouldn't he have to know that what he was doing would kill him? If he has 16 other excessive force complaints, without being fired, or killing anyone else, one could argue that he did not think it would kill him and, regardless of what the Chief says is policy, could consider that what he was doing was "normal."
    The other complaints against Chauvin won't be part of the evidence against him, IIRC. The defense would be very, very foolish to bring them up, and the prosecution can't, I think

    Second-degree seems a bit of a stretch, but in the course of felony assault, perhaps? Third-degree seems to fit better IMHO. The relevant statutes, again:

    609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

    (1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or
    (2) (irrelevant)

    §Subd. 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

    (1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or
    (2) (irrelevant)

    609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.

    (a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.
    (b) - irrelevant

    609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

    A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:

    (1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or
    (2-4) irrelevant
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    This is not manslaughter. This is murder.

    I’d argue that it wasn’t a random citizen, either, and explore the “malice aforethought” avenue with the removal from the car.

    Of course, I have a different perspective than a lot of folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    This is not manslaughter. This is murder.

    I’d argue that it wasn’t a random citizen, either, and explore the “malice aforethought” avenue with the removal from the car.

    Of course, I have a different perspective than a lot of folks.
    You have life experiences that I am glad I do not, but you won't get an argument from me. I suspect he really did not think he was going to kill Floyd, but I also think he did not care until he realized it might be bad for him.

    What keeps haunting me is that this was all over a bad $20 bill that he may or may not have known was bad. Floyd could easily have been a victim of the counterfeit as well.
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Probably because Minnesota law allows these people to be considered as crime victims.
    ? There's only one victim in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Plus, I think the Defense screwed up. In opening statements they said they’d show that Chauvin was influenced by a scary out of control mob, leading him to take extra efforts to restrain Floyd.

    Did they not watch the video?

    The witnesses were pretty amazing to me. The defense attorney tried to goad one of them, Mr. Williams, into saying he was angry and was going to be violent. Classic dangerous angry black man trope. Williams had none of that - said he stayed professional and stayed in his body, and expressed deep remorse that he couldn’t help Floyd. Same thing from the other witnesses.
    All true. Plus, they said the reason they were upset was because Chauvin kept his knee on the victim's neck. That makes for a poor reason to keep your knee on his neck.

    I guess the defense attorney wanted to let them testify about how angry they had become as circumstantial evidence of how angry they were, thus supporting Chauvin's defense. But only if they showed their anger in some way Chauvin could perceive. It's his perceptions and evaluations that are at issue. Some guy could be watching from a block away and calling Chauvin a whole basket of mofo's, angry as hell, drawing his saber; if Chauvin doesn't see or hear him, it's irrelevant.
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

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