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Thread: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

  1. #316
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    don't get me started on band camp stories paul

  2. #317
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Thank you for your kind words. I do try to be polite to everyone here. After all, as Robert Heinlein once said "courtesy is the lubrication of civilization". I'll admit that I have trouble being polite about people like Jordan & Trump, but I do try to be polite to those who post here with differing views.

    In fact, I get rather upset seeing incivility & intolerance towards people posting other POVs here. I like hearing opposing POVs - even if I vehemently disagree with them. We can't learn if can't differ.
    Heinlein also said that 'an armed society is a polite society'.

    One could then infer that weapons are the lubrication of civilization.



    I do tend to weaponize my command of the language when confronted with well-meaning, fascist claptrap wrapped in Kumbaya.
    Rattling the teacups.

  3. #318
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Heinlein also said that 'an armed society is a polite society'.
    Heinlein was a decent writer, but about many things, quite an idiot.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  4. #319
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Heinlein also said that 'an armed society is a polite society'.

    One could then infer that weapons are the lubrication of civilization.



    I do tend to weaponize my command of the language when confronted with well-meaning, fascist claptrap wrapped in Kumbaya.
    Nah - they're more like the grease gun...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  5. #320
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Heinlein was a decent writer, but about many things, quite an idiot.
    True 'nuf - but he was a pretty extreme libertarian after all. I 100% agree with the "courtesy is the lubrication of civilization" remark though.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  6. #321
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Apologies for the thread drift, gentlemen.

    Mr. Ross, what news from the courthouse?
    They are in recess until Monday. Speculation about the judge’s instructions to come. And now, the death of Duante Wright in the background.

  7. #322
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Any white parent who thinks they don't need to have a serious talk with their kids about how to interact with the police is sticking their head in the sand.
    Some are just ignorant. They've led sheltered lives. Others know, but are sticking their heads in the sand, to avoid the subject.

    Others say the serious talk is not necessary on account of whiteness. It's rhetoric supporting an exclusive right to claim a certain type of victimhood. That claim is in service of an ideology which, for this and other reasons, wants to "overthrow capitalism", which, according to the ideology, will end these various forms of victimization.

    The exclusivity is based on color. White people get jacked up, but not on account of race. Therefore white parents don't need to tell their kids that they will get jacked up on account of race. They don't need to give their kids that talk. People of color will, so long as we have capitalism, which is suffused with institutional (i.e. unintentional) racism, it's indispensable product.

    A few definitions and a few sweeping conclusions, and you have a reformulated doctrine of original sin, unredeemable except by grace. Left Puritanism.
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

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  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I have many friends, a few companions, but have sex with none of them. You'd think that the AP would want a more accurate term ...


    Accuracy versus gender specificity: we live in challenging times.

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  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i have as well. one time in HS our car "matched the description" of a crime in the area and when we pulled into the driveway we were surrounded by 3 cop cars and they all jumped out guns drawn. scary as all hell. any wrong moves and you're in serious trouble. but, no one moved an inch and after we were slammed on the ground and patted down and searched we were let go. none of our whiteness seemed to make a difference.


    I've had a gun put to my head because I fit the description and was in the right/wrong place. ( red hair, freckles...)

    Kevin


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    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  10. #325
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Kevin and Alan, I’m not sure I get your point. Yeah, white people are confronted by police too.

    What difference should that make to Black people who are disproportionately stopped and shot? The statistics are pretty clear on this.

  11. #326
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Kevin and Alan, I’m not sure I get your point. Yeah, white people are confronted by police too.

    What difference should that make to Black people who are disproportionately stopped and shot? The statistics are pretty clear on this.
    It should make them wary of saying white people don't need to worry about getting jacked up. And consider further, the jacking up is the true problem, isn't it? Not the disproportion.
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

    -- James Madison, Federalist 55

  12. #327
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Kevin and Alan, I’m not sure I get your point. Yeah, white people are confronted by police too.

    What difference should that make to Black people who are disproportionately stopped and shot? The statistics are pretty clear on this.
    You are falling into the trap of "All Lives Matter". It's a slogan and a truism. Of course all lives matter. Don't let that become more than it is, but also don't see it wherever you turn.

    Young black men are killed in disproportionate numbers. We know that. The question was whether the parents of white kids should also teach them the proper way to interact with police officers and to be careful. Don't demean that because there is another problem. We need to fix them both.
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Kevin and Alan, I’m not sure I get your point. Yeah, white people are confronted by police too.

    What difference should that make to Black people who are disproportionately stopped and shot? The statistics are pretty clear on this.


    That was to the comment that white people need not instruct their children how to react to a police encounter. They should, IMO, I have with my kids, and we have friends and family who are police.

    That position neither supports nor undercuts the position that black parents should do likewise. But, for the record, I think they . should. I think all parents would be wise to do so.

    Kevin




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    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  14. #329
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Got it.<br><br>As a parent, I can understand telling my kids to be respectful if they encounter the police. I’ve never thought I had need to do so (but then I have daughters, and women are usually not involved in such things).<br> <br>I think it’s a bad sign if&nbsp;kids need to be told that they might be hurt or worse when being stopped for a traffic violation. &nbsp;Yet every black parent I know has this talk, especially with their sons. I’ve not heard of a white family that does this despite living in a city that has had quite a few high profile police shootings.

  15. #330
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Kevin and Alan, I’m not sure I get your point. Yeah, white people are confronted by police too.

    What difference should that make to Black people who are disproportionately stopped and shot? The statistics are pretty clear on this.
    Uhhh . . .

    Maybe you weren't around for the unredacted Post #311, but

    Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Are you saying that black people have no obligation of concern for their fellow man?
    Rattling the teacups.

  16. #331
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Oz, I think we all have an obligation to love each other.

  17. #332
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Oz, I think we all have an obligation to love each other.
    OK.

    Then I don't understand your question:

    Originally Posted by C. Ross
    Kevin and Alan, I’m not sure I get your point. Yeah, white people are confronted by police too.

    What difference should that make to Black people who are disproportionately stopped and shot? The statistics are pretty clear on this.


    Rattling the teacups.

  18. #333
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    I don’t think the Black people I know feel better knowing the police sometimes mistreat White people too.

    Especially when they know it happens to them much, much more often.

  19. #334
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    OK.

    I'm thinking you are completely oblivious to the implication of your statement.

    Not my problem, thank god, but all the best of luck with it.

    Sincerely,

    John T
    Rattling the teacups.

  20. #335
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Living in the Twin Cities the notion that police mistreat white people in the same way they mistreat black people is fiction. Just privileged revisionism to pretend “be polite” is the same.

  21. #336
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Living in the Twin Cities the notion that police mistreat white people in the same way they mistreat black people is fiction.
    Very true - at least not as often. It's exacerbated by the fact that although Minnesota has fewer African-Americans that many places, there's a larger class divide between them and the general population. Compared to many places, the Minnesota black middle class is pretty small. And then there the urban-rural thing; the vast majority of the African-Americans live in the Twin Cities, and the cultural difference between the descendants of Scandinavian and northern European immigrants and the African-Americans is larger than in many places. The upshot is, although Minnesota's rate of people killed by police as a percentage of the population is fairly low, the difference between black folks and the average is notably larger than nationally. Nationally it's about 2 or 2-1/2x; in Minnesota it approaches four. Not a nice number.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 04-17-2021 at 11:15 AM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  22. #337
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Oz - I do believe you're taking more out of CRoss's statement, than is 'there'. He's not minimizing White concerns; he's pointing out that Black folk are far more, disproportionately affected, and have been - for a really long time. Of course there's a problem that affects us all, and needs to be addressed.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  23. #338
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Oz - I do believe you're taking more out of CRoss's statement, than is 'there'. He's not minimizing White concerns; he's pointing out that Black folk are far more, disproportionately affected, and have been - for a really long time. Of course there's a problem that affects us all, and needs to be addressed.
    Oh, no. Not at all.

    I accept that Mr. Ross is of kind heart and broad philosophy.
    Rattling the teacups.

  24. #339
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  25. #340
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Yeah, the utter complacency of most “fiscal conservatives” as jurisdictions shell out millions to settle police violence claims says it all.

  26. #341
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    I don’t think the Black people I know feel better knowing the police sometimes mistreat White people too.
    Does it make them feel good to deny it?
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

    -- James Madison, Federalist 55

  27. #342
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    i have as well. one time in HS our car "matched the description" of a crime in the area and when we pulled into the driveway we were surrounded by 3 cop cars and they all jumped out guns drawn. scary as all hell. any wrong moves and you're in serious trouble. but, no one moved an inch and after we were slammed on the ground and patted down and searched we were let go. none of our whiteness seemed to make a difference.
    Except, if you hadn't been white, you might well have ended up dead despite the absence of wrong moves. That's the difference.

    How many white mass shooters have been taken alive by police? As many as there have been Black people killed by police?

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  28. #343
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Does it make them feel good to deny it?
    Im going to just let this drop. I honestly don’t get what the objection is to my point that Black people have it worse than White people. Carry on!

  29. #344
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I 100% agree with the "courtesy is the lubrication of civilization" remark though.
    Or to put it another way Garret- Manners Maketh Man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5eVXKFJfoA JayInOz

  30. #345
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Im going to just let this drop. I honestly don’t get what the objection is to my point that Black people have it worse than White people. Carry on!
    Before it hits the floor, I have to say that I don't get people's objections to what you said either. Seemed right in line with what many others (who weren't objected to) were saying.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  31. #346
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Closing statements have begun.

    I didn't think it would be so difficult to hear, but the prosecution is doing a terrific job of putting actions into perspective.
    "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Groucho Marx

  32. #347
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Arguing that Chauvin betrayed his badge, his role. "This is not an anti-police prosecution, it's a pro-police prosecution."
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  33. #348
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    I have some time off today and am headed to the courthouse. Eager to see what’s going on.

  34. #349
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    Keep yer head down; 'proud nail' and all.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  35. #350
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    Default Re: Derek Chauvin trial livestream

    Prosecution rests. Walked through all the points required to convict Murder 2nd Degree, Murder 3rd, and Manslaughter ... and also what is NOT required to convict on any of those charges. Helluva devastating summation.

    Note also that the judge's directions to the jury (which are printed and each juror can take into the jury room with them) specify what the "reasonable doubt" criteria is and isn't. Reasonable common-sense view. Would a reasonable, prudent person think this is so? Gave the example of deer tracks in the snow are a bit of circumstantial evidence ... and a reasonable person would believe that a deer had been in the yard. Proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" does not mean "I have zero doubts" - or "there could be no possible doubts".

    Just a brutal, brutal set of arguments for Chauvin's defense to overcome. How can you argue that Chauvin was justified in the use of force, when the most senior officers in his department testified otherwise? How can you argue that Chauvin was unaware of the physical risks to Floyd when bystanders - ranging from an off-duty firefighter with medic training through to a 9 year old girl - testified (and are on video) pleading for Floyd's life? Begging (in the firefighter's case) to be allowed to offer medical aid they gave multiple times/shift? When Chauvin's own medical expert acknowledged that medical care should have been offered?

    This is going to be a very, very difficult lift for Chauvin's team. And if it comes down to a hung jury, it's going to be ugly.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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