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Thread: Military style guns

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Not in the least. You are ascribing an attitude to me that I do not have, merely to buttress your opinion. Debate the substance, don't ascribe fictitious character to the person you are debating. That is weak and cheap.
    Do you use rifles?

    btw, my comment was not directed at you, but at the general tone of conversation here about firearms. I actually find you to be one of the most thoughtful and open here.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Penis extenders, period.

    I still maintain that if we cannot repeal the accursed 2nd Amendment, then at least we can mandate that all firearms be single shot only except for active duty law enforcement and military. We'd have a nation of sharpshooters.

    Zero guns = zero gun deaths. Do the math.
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    ar's date from 1956

    the point i was inferring is that most sporting rifles, including ar style sporter rifles, have been or are descendants of military arms
    And isn't that exactly the problem? Civilians having access to guns that have their genesis in weaponry used by the military, which by design, is intended to kill as many humans as efficiently as possible.
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Most hunting rifles of any type are descended from military arms. Very very few are not.



    Also, btw, the first semi auto’s were developed and on the market in the late 1800’s

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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    “I don’t want it, so neither should anyone else”
    “I see no need for it, so no need can exist”

    Does that sum it up?
    More along the lines of "Only a pitiable excuse for a man or hunter needs..."

    Sorry, maybe that was too truthful. What I mean to say is that we all are sometimes called to make a small sacrifice for the good of all. It seems to me that some guns can be sacrificed without great loss to hunters or even those seeking self-protection, in the name of providing the rest of us with greater security.

    And, yes, on this and other matters, we all have a say in what another person needs when it effects our safety. Ain't democracy a b1tch?
    Last edited by CWSmith; 03-24-2021 at 10:38 AM.
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  6. #41
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    More along the lines of "Only a pitiable excuse for a man or hunter needs..."
    And you would of course know. You’ve hunted deer, bear, wild boar, coyotes, groundhog, ducks and geese.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    “I don’t want it, so neither should anyone else”
    “I see no need for it, so no need can exist”

    Does that sum it up?
    Not what I'm saying, or what the Twitter guy (who has a whole lot more experience with firearms than my little bit) was saying either.

    What I'm saying is that the AR found its market dominance through a combination of fear/misinformation marketing (fear of human threats, misinformation about Government 2nd Amendment skullduggery) and returning veterans' familiarity with an AR's handling and utility deployed in the anti-human contexts the marketing guys conjured up.

    I'm saying that the things you've noted as benefits for hunters - in durability, weight savings, ability to customize to aid the owner's ability to shoot well, ease of maintenance - are great advantages for folks humping them through the woods and wanting to shoot well.

    I'm also saying, though, that hunting rifles should be designed for hunting animals, and chambered in the calibers that best suit the task. Kinder to the animal, more efficient. In my part of Canada, FWIW, if you're carrying a rifle on a hunt, it needs to be chambered in a caliber appropriate to what you're hunting. Your bear license doesn't give you a reason to carry a plinker, and your plinking license doesn't give you a reason to carry something best suited to quickly killing a moose.

    And the magazine sizes should similarly match the needs of a game hunter, not a SWAT or SEAL team member.

    Long guns optimized in configurations for shooting at humans (who may also shoot back) seem to me to be the province of collectors (who'd need additional licensing and storage provisions for them), or LEO and military agencies.

    I understand the collecting bug - I used to have a few military swords, and I still have a couple of kukris. I get how someone might have a similar interest in military firearms, either original or reproduction. And want to be able to take them out to a range and shoot. I've got no problem with that (within reason - don't think any private citizen needs to collect bazookas). I do have problems with military arms becoming the "most popular rifle" in any country, if one of the society's objectives is to have a fairly low rate of human-on-human violence among civilians.
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Do you use rifles?
    I used to hunt, but don't any more. Not from any great philosophical abhorrance, but just because I don't care for the flesh of most of the critters around here that I can hunt (rabbet, deer, ducks, geese), and the ones that I do like (partridge, moose) are frankly, too expensive and time-consuming to hunt. I always seem to be able to get a few birds and a roast and steaks from friends, so there was no longer any need for me to have such weapons for shootin' at them. I kept my grandfather's 1930's single-shot bolt-action Cooey Ace .22 out of nostalgia, but sold my 12 guage and .303 forty years ago.
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    And you would of course know. You’ve hunted deer, bear, wild boar, coyotes, groundhog, ducks and geese.
    People I know and respect with extensive experience have and I respect their opinion. None of them use a semi-automatic gun. They don't need it. Maybe you need to practice more until you no longer need it, either?
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    And isn't that exactly the problem? Civilians having access to guns that have their genesis in weaponry used by the military, which by design, is intended to kill as many humans as efficiently as possible.
    No it’s not. All guns have their genesis in warfare all the way back to the Chinese, and sorry, but you aren’t going to use this as a basis to ban all guns.
    For hunting and sport shooting however there is no need to be able to throw 30-50 rounds downrange in a matter of 30 seconds. The restrictions other nations have imposed on semi auto weapons and magazine size are sensible. While the “style” of the weapon may play well on the nighty news more important is it’s capacity and rapidity of fire. A wooden stock Mini-14 can do just as much damage as an AR-15.

    As for me my rifle of choice is the Swiss K-31. It’s what I take to the range for some target shooting. I can’t say I’m up to this guys level yet....

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  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    So where, how, and what do you hunt? Do you assume all animals are the same and all terrain is the same? Do you understand that a semi, by its nature, is better for smaller framed people and people with disabilities? Where I hunt most of the deer I hunt, the bush is too think to get a second shot with a bolt action. I choose to hunt with a single shot, others prefer the security of being able to take a second shot if required. Who are you and who am I to tell them how and what they should hunt with as long as they follow the laws, regulations and common sense.
    I have ZERO desire to get into a pissing contest here, but the bolded bits seem some pretty weak tea as an argument in favor of military style weapons to go and take Bambi out with.

    Yes all kinds of people should have access to all kinds of pursuits, but not everybody is physically capable to do everything, likely why with the exception of Mugsy Boggs there aren't many cats that are 5'5" in the NBA. Making things accessible to people who don't have the capability to handle a deer rifle because of disabilities seems that maybe those people shouldn't hunt. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean you should.

    How are they getting to the kill zone if they are disabled or are they simply sitting in the back of a pickup bed on the side of the road and waiting for the deer to poke their heads out of the woods and then hosing down the edge of the forest with an AR?

    If the bush is too thick to get or need a second shot then select a happier hunting ground. I was always lead to believe that the sport of hunting was to effect a clean single shot to drop one's quarry, not laying down a fusillade of covering fire to chop the target to pieces. People hunted with single shots for 100's of years, military guns to take out unarmed game seems beyond ridiculous. Just my .02
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Of my friends that have guns, the retired military guys all have AR15s. perhaps it is familiarity?
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    The thought just occurred to me:

    Most of the defenders of military-style weapons do so because they claim that the weapons are suited for hunting, and in some ways better suited for the sport. So imagine a brave new world where you are not permitted to own such weapons in operating condition. Would their loss exclude you from hunting, or would you merely adapt to a different type of weapon?

    In other words, do you need a military-style weapon?
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  14. #49
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    When a few years ago I was thinking about getting a rifle and taking up hunting, I looked hard at army surplus like that K31. They were pretty cheap at the time, and a lot of folks wrote about how the 7mm Mauser rounds were plenty to use hunting deer.

    I like the aesthetics of wood stocked rifles too, and an old Mauser seemed like a way to get one at a price point I could manage.

    As things played out, I didn't buy a hunting rifle after all, or shotgun. Realized that I simply wasn't seeing the amount of time available in my life to get good at shooting, good at finding game, and then reliably be able to find my way into a fairly not-overcrowded bit of the woods during our relatively short deer season. So the cost/return ratio just wasn't going to work for me.

    I could see that changing in the future, maybe. But then again, it's a big time investment to get capable enough that I'd feel I was going to be kind enough to the deer, and reliable enough at finding a buck.
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    When a few years ago I was thinking about getting a rifle and taking up hunting, I looked hard at army surplus like that K31. They were pretty cheap at the time, and a lot of folks wrote about how the 7mm Mauser rounds were plenty to use hunting deer.

    I like the aesthetics of wood stocked rifles too, and an old Mauser seemed like a way to get one at a price point I could manage.

    As things played out, I didn't buy a hunting rifle after all, or shotgun. Realized that I simply wasn't seeing the amount of time available in my life to get good at shooting, good at finding game, and then reliably be able to find my way into a fairly not-overcrowded bit of the woods during our relatively short deer season. So the cost/return ratio just wasn't going to work for me.

    I could see that changing in the future, maybe. But then again, it's a big time investment to get capable enough that I'd feel I was going to be kind enough to the deer, and reliable enough at finding a buck.
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Jesus, Rob.

    Jesus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I'm just a guy who knows bullsh1t when he sees it. I'm a guy with a boat load of city boys who hunt in the woods behind his house where I hear a series of 5 or 6 shots whenever I hear 1. And I have a whole lot of relatives who hunt and have no respect for the semiautomatic crowd.
    New Hampshire law, I think, limits hunting rifle magazines to 5 rounds or fewer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    The thought just occurred to me:

    Most of the defenders of military-style weapons do so because they claim that the weapons are suited for hunting, and in some ways better suited for the sport. So imagine a brave new world where you are not permitted to own such weapons in operating condition. Would their loss exclude you from hunting, or would you merely adapt to a different type of weapon?

    In other words, do you need a military-style weapon?
    Mexico, IIRC, categorically bans all weapons with a military heritage, such as the .45 semi automatic handguns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    Mexico, IIRC, categorically bans all weapons with a military heritage, such as the .45 semi automatic handguns.
    and we see how that's worked out for them eh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    and we see how that's worked out for them eh
    Well, we non-Americans observe that your country has an obscene amount of military-style weapons in the hands of civilians and you tell us that "an armed society is a polite society" and "it is my right to protect myself, my family, and my property". How's that working out for you, in light of the all-too-frequent murders and mass-shootings?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    I have ZERO desire to get into a pissing contest here, but the bolded bits seem some pretty weak tea as an argument in favor of military style weapons to go and take Bambi out with.

    Yes all kinds of people should have access to all kinds of pursuits, but not everybody is physically capable to do everything, likely why with the exception of Mugsy Boggs there aren't many cats that are 5'5" in the NBA. Making things accessible to people who don't have the capability to handle a deer rifle because of disabilities seems that maybe those people shouldn't hunt. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean you should.

    How are they getting to the kill zone if they are disabled or are they simply sitting in the back of a pickup bed on the side of the road and waiting for the deer to poke their heads out of the woods and then hosing down the edge of the forest with an AR?

    If the bush is too thick to get or need a second shot then select a happier hunting ground. I was always lead to believe that the sport of hunting was to effect a clean single shot to drop one's quarry, not laying down a fusillade of covering fire to chop the target to pieces. People hunted with single shots for 100's of years, military guns to take out unarmed game seems beyond ridiculous. Just my .02
    No desire to get into a pissing contest either, so I’ll be brief.
    -most of the women I know use semi-autos because they kick less, and they tend to be small framed.
    -you obviously have never hunted coastal blacktail or on Vancouver island if you think there is a “happier hunting ground” it’s all thick coastal rainforest.
    -the option of a quick follow-up shot is hardly a fusillade
    -we hunted with bows for thousands of years before the first firearm. I can just hear you now. “Why do you need....”

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    Default Re: Military style guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    No it’s not. All guns have their genesis in warfare all the way back to the Chinese, and sorry, but you aren’t going to use this as a basis to ban all guns.
    For hunting and sport shooting however there is no need to be able to throw 30-50 rounds downrange in a matter of 30 seconds. The restrictions other nations have imposed on semi auto weapons and magazine size are sensible. While the “style” of the weapon may play well on the nighty news more important is it’s capacity and rapidity of fire. A wooden stock Mini-14 can do just as much damage as an AR-15.

    As for me my rifle of choice is the Swiss K-31. It’s what I take to the range for some target shooting. I can’t say I’m up to this guys level yet....

    I don't doubt that on the face of it all guns have some origination in military applications and I am not arguing that all guns should be banned. But guns that the military specifies to be capable in combat situations shouldn't have currency in an enlightened society.

    Is there anyone here that really feels it is a good thing when they see imagery of Marines in theater toting AR type weapons on 60 Minutes, YouTube or FB and with the next internet click they can see photos of every goober that fell out of a womb somewhere in the states walking the aisles of Walmart, on the steps of a state Capitol, or in line to buy a Quarter Pounder at McDonalds. That can't be the future of this country, despite it being our present state of play.
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  23. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Well, we non-Americans observe that your country has an obscene amount of military-style weapons in the hands of civilians and you tell us that "an armed society is a polite society" and "it is my right to protect myself, my family, and my property". How's that working out for you, in light of the all-too-frequent murders and mass-shootings?

    it's working out for ****

    but call me cynical, there exists no real viable political solution for the problem of gun violence in america at this time

    and it's not all a republican/democrat thing; watch how the debate plays out in congress over the next month as a result of the most recent tragedies - the dems won't be able to get all their party on board for any proposals, any proposed legislation will wither and die; meanwhile our politicians lose momentum on solving other problems we face: immigration, voting rights, republican douchebaggeriness, green energy and infrastructure, education, etc, etc. . .

    gun violence, gun control is a losing issue for dems
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    People I know and respect with extensive experience have and I respect their opinion. None of them use a semi-automatic gun. They don't need it. Maybe you need to practice more until you no longer need it, either?
    I hunt with a single shot. I already said that here. Perhaps you need to learn reading skills?
    I know what I can do, and what my comfort level is. I’m not going to tell other people what they should do. Many feel more comfortable with the option of a rapid second shot. I’ve seen many animals killed with semi-autos and none of them were “shot to pieces”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    New Hampshire law, I think, limits hunting rifle magazines to 5 rounds or fewer.
    My experience, seeing them come out of the woods, suggests that most hunters do not hunt alone.

    All I know is that in the early mornings of deer season I seldom, if ever, hear a single shot or even two shots behind the house.

    I'm not advocating for inhumane practices where a wounded deer wonders off to die slowly. I'm just tired of the weekend warrior playing Rambo in the woods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    New Hampshire law, I think, limits hunting rifle magazines to 5 rounds or fewer.
    most hunting jurisdictions restrict magazine capacity by species, except for varmints
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Here, it’s 5 for semi auto, unlimited for any other action. Other than waterfowl, which is 3 shells I believe (I use an o/u, so I’m not sure)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    it's working out for ****

    but call me cynical, there exists no real viable political solution for the problem of gun violence in america at this time
    Paul, I am not proposing a political solution. I am proposing a physical solution that slows the ability of a shooter to get off multiple shots. I want to slow the roll and give victims more time to escape (and the police more time to shoot the b@st@rd).

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    I hunt with a single shot. I already said that here. Perhaps you need to learn reading skills?
    I know what I can do, and what my comfort level is. I’m not going to tell other people what they should do. Many feel more comfortable with the option of a rapid second shot. I’ve seen many animals killed with semi-autos and none of them were “shot to pieces”.
    Sorry I missed that one statement among the many you posted. My reading skills aren't too bad and my logic skills remain pretty sharp. What other people want no longer interests me. They may want to drive 100 mph down the road by my house, but we don't let them. Some people want to own fully automatic weapons, but we don't allow them. When certain behavior is judged to be too dangerous to others, we make it illegal. I propose that some guns are too dangerous and too available to people who cannot use them wisely and need to be outlawed and I propose that we add semiautomatic weapons to that list.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    it's working out for ****

    but call me cynical, there exists no real viable political solution for the problem of gun violence in america at this time

    and it's not all a republican/democrat thing; watch how the debate plays out in congress over the next month as a result of the most recent tragedies - the dems won't be able to get all their party on board for any proposals, any proposed legislation will wither and die; meanwhile our politicians lose momentum on solving other problems we face: immigration, voting rights, republican douchebaggeriness, green energy and infrastructure, education, etc, etc. . .

    gun violence, gun control is a losing issue for dems
    You don't need to qualify it as a losing issue for dems, it is a losing issue for all Americans and I have zero hope or belief that it will ever change. You just have to hope that you're never in a location that puts you in a position to be caught in the cross fire.

    The only event that I think would ever change the current situation would be if multiple members of congress, on both sides of the aisle, along with their wives and children were killed by a lone gunman at say the Congressional family picnic.

    And even then if such a horrific act were to occur, I'd only give it a 50/50 chance of changing anything, and realistically as I type this, my belief is that it would perhaps result in only a 20% chance in changing the status quo.

    Congress people don't appear to change their minds on a particular issue until it directly affects them. Gay marriage being a recent issue that resulted in changing hardliners against it when they discovered their sons and daughters were gay and wished to marry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
    The only event that I think would ever change the current situation would be if multiple members of congress, on both sides of the aisle, along with their wives and children were killed by a lone gunman at say the Congressional family picnic.
    I hate to say it, but I'm not sure even Republicans are safe now. Trump is turning the nutters against all of his enemies and that includes all but the most radical Republicans. I suspect the day is coming...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Paul, I am not proposing a political solution. I am proposing a physical solution that slows the ability of a shooter to get off multiple shots.
    OK.

    Unless you're the autocratic authority in charge, you will not implement that physical solution without a political solution to back it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    OK.

    Unless you're the autocratic authority in charge, you will not implement that physical solution without a political solution to back it up.
    Of course. I know we will never get gun control legislation until there is a horrific tragedy that strikes many politicians such as Kevin describes. Maybe if we have something that dwarfs what happened in Boulder enough Americans will speak up. It's going to take blood to stop the bloodshed. I was just proposing what seems to me to be a very minimal step that recognizes we can slow the shooter and save lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I hate to say it, but I'm not sure even Republicans are safe now. Trump is turning the nutters against all of his enemies and that includes all but the most radical Republicans. I suspect the day is coming...
    Yes, I'd agree that no one is Congress is safe. Heck if the R's really thought they people storming the Capitol on 1/6 were their friends, they would have stayed in the chamber to greet the mob with open arms, but no, they fled for their safety.

    I'm seriously of the mind though that when 20 six and seven year olds along with 6 adults are killed in the Newtown/Sandy Hook School shooting and it doesn't change a thing, I sadly don't believe anything can or will change the slavish devotion to the 2A.

    ETA: The Vegas shooting didn't change anything, and what was the body count on that, north of 55 along with 411 wounded by gunfire. We're seriously fooked.
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    I sometimes think that this country is destined to embrace self-destruction. I wonder if some societies are incapable of reversing course until they go so far that the world tears them down. Both Germany and Japan came back from WWII to be much better nations. They shed the values that led them to ruin. I wonder if that is not our destiny in some form?
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    Ding, ding, ding we have a winner at post #69.

    Gun lust, so called freedom and the second ammendment, handed down by the lord almighty himself, is too entrenched in the American DNA to ever change. And that doesn't even taken into account the people that need a wedding tackle extender. Just not sure what form it will take in order to be realized.

    Maybe the Canoodians can overthrow our government and fold our country into theirs.
    "Unrepentant Reprobate"
    Lew Barrett



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