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Thread: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

  1. #1
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    Default 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Was hoping for some input on available designs with traditional construction methods that could be modified to build something along the lines of this modern fiberglass Voyager 233: https://www.maritimeboats.com/models/233-voyager/


    The criteria & reasons are the following:

    Traditional boat construction method, with little to no fiberglass / plywood (maybe for reinforcement). Mainly because the cost of shipping to my part of the world costs the same as the product itself. Raw wood is essentially free for me, basically the labor involved in harvesting it. I have Birch and Sitka Spruce and Western Hemlock readily available, but also Alaska Yellow Cedar and Western Red Cedar with some logistics, travel and labor involved. Is Lapstrake a viable option for a trailerable boat this size?


    Heated pilothouse (can seat 4), V-bottom, self-bailing, planning hull, outboard, powerboat that can take 6 Seas.


    Relatively light for efficiency, but not so light as to sacrifice safety because fuel is 50% more in these parts than the Continental US. Cruise speed = low-mid 20s or faster. Would like to do 130 miles in a day for supply runs (that includes 3 hours to get supplies) and be able to outrun the weather if need be.


    Approximately a trailerable 22 LOA powerboat, give or take a couple of feet. Seasonally it will spend 6 months in the water and 6 months in covered storage on a trailer.


    Very small cuddy for 2 people to use only on rare occasions. Think something along the lines of a backpack tent in size. This would mainly be used as a day boat with a couple of overnight trips thrown in each year.


    Bow & stern relatively open for work, with the pilothouse in the middle. This will be for gill netting, crabbing / shrimping, halibut fishing plus a hauler for supplies. Basically a work boat that one can get out of the weather in a heated pilothouse. Simple and durable is the key. Most of the designs I'm seeing are of plywood. The cost to ship the plywood will be as much or more than the plywood itself. Am I asking for too much?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    The bottom planking of a traditional boat is wet. Soaking wet.Saturated wet. 8 pounds a gallon wet.
    Weight is the enemy of a planing boat.
    You can use the wood you speak of, but to build a double planked epoxy , or strip planked epoxy, or even cold molded epoxy boat.
    I think strip plank of red cedar ,even strip built ,for the boat pictured would be the best you could do.
    bruce

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    I re-bottomed an epoxy/plywood boat (6 m long) that I built some year ago with a bottom shape I didn't like. I turned the boat upside down, cut away the old bottom and built a new bottom with the same wood strip / epoxy techique as I've used when building kayaks. In my case it was suitable to use 12 mm * 45 mm strips that I could rip from ordinary construction wood (spruce). I built the bottom on frames that I removed when glassing the inside, and glued in suitable reinforcements (stations) afterward. Using temporary frames that were removed when glassing the inside reduce the epoxy messiness a lot.

    Wood strip / epoxy is weight efficient for small boats, and 22' should be within the range. I enjoyed the method and was very pleased with the result. I'll definitely use a wood strip epoxy technique for my next boat. There's always a next boat.

    /Erik

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Did you use fiberglass in that situation where you did the re-bottom or just epoxy. I built a cedar strip canoe, modified from plans, quite a few years back and was very happy with the performance of that craft, just didn't care for the fiberglass; although the sandwich gave it the necessary strength. Eventually, I will build a freighter canoe at some point using this same method.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    I don't recall any of Capt Pete Culler's "file bottom" outboards in your size range, but I bet if you get together with a naval architect who understands the concept you could get a lightish seaworthy and very efficient boat. It would be considerably longer and proportionatly narrower than your frozen snot model, but it's one of the few dimensional wood boats that can be drysailed.

    An enlarged version of:

    ing

    The longer and narrower than you plan is necessary for stabile construction and efficiency. It would be very hard to build the shape you pictured with dimensional wood. I think it could be done in about 30'. Probably locate the pilot house aft with centerline access both fore and aft. If you must have a head, plan on sitting headroom. Gotta keep it low.

    G'luck

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Strip Built is with FG on the inside and outside, like a canoe or small boat. The FG skins are structural
    Strip planked is with vertical nails inside the plank, piercing 2 1/2 planks,used for bigger heavier boats.FG is not needed, but is used optionally for waterproofing and peace of mind.
    22 feet is right in the middle,so.....
    Strip built is lighter .
    If the boat is heavy, it will ALWAYS be heavy.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    This will do it, strip built of YC for the framing and hull and cockpit sole, RC over YC for everything else. You can build a pilot house on it.



    https://bartenderboats.com/product/22-bartender/

    Bartenders are famous for their seaworthiness, and they're fast enough.

    "Besides being successfully built and used by recreational boaters all over the world, BARTENDERS have been used extensively in Australia by harbor patrols, state police, and Australia’s famous surf rescue teams. Several oil companies have utilized the BARTENDER in the offshore oil industry to get them through rough sea conditions that most other small craft would not handle."



    https://bartenderboats.com/history/
    Last edited by Gib Etheridge; 02-21-2021 at 04:52 PM.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    There's a whole lot about them on the net.

    https://smallboatsmonthly.com/article/bartender/

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    I always use glass and epoxy on both inside and outside. As pointed out, the glass is also structural as it gives strength across the wood direction. I've tried to coat spruce and pine with epoxy only, but it doesn't work well because the surface checkers. Working with wood is enjoyable. Epoxy and glass are necessary evils to make the result lasting.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    I don't recall any of Capt Pete Culler's "file bottom" outboards in your size range, but I bet if you get together with a naval architect who understands the concept you could get a lightish seaworthy and very efficient boat. It would be considerably longer and proportionatly narrower than your frozen snot model, but it's one of the few dimensional wood boats that can be drysailed.

    An enlarged version of:

    ing

    The longer and narrower than you plan is necessary for stabile construction and efficiency. It would be very hard to build the shape you pictured with dimensional wood. I think it could be done in about 30'. Probably locate the pilot house aft with centerline access both fore and aft. If you must have a head, plan on sitting headroom. Gotta keep it low.

    G'luck

    Just to be clear, it's not so much the shape of the Voyager 233, but the general layout.

    Some things I would change about it would be: Seating for 4 in the interior and no exterior seats on the front half. I would just use a portable X-large cooler with cushions for the exterior seats.

    Egress to the interior is the problem I see as you could go out a side door(s), a stern door or even a walk thru bow or a combination of any of the above. I even picture an asymmetrical pilothouse with a door on one the side & a 6" flat gunnel on the other side. It would probably look ugly but would be functional.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    In the Pacific NW there were many, many double diagonal planked hard chine boats. I was lucky enough to be an apprentice at Vic Franck’s on Lake Union in 1972 when the last wood yacht was built. It was a Bill Garden motoryacht, 65’ long. It had steam bent oak frames and two layers of 3/4” Alaska Cedar from keel to chine, and then a single diagonal Alaska Cedar with 40’ Red Cedar longitudinal over it, glue was Resorcinol. The outer topsides Red Cedar was wedge seamed, producing a perfectly flawless hull painted with oil base paint. These vessels from the PNW yards are still flawless given routine maintenance.
    The station molds were lofted so that after the ribbands were installed the frames were inside the ribbands from rabbet to chine and outside the ribbands from chine to sheer. This made framing much quicker than passing the hot frame inside the hull and pushing it outwards to the ribbands, we had about 4 guys on each side of the hull during framing. And, oh yeah you betcha it was a race to see if the Port or Starboard crew hung the most frames each day.
    You could certainly plank your hull with AYC double diagonal, using your glue of choice, at a guess two layers of 7/16” to 5/8” over frames at 12” to 16” on center would deliver an immensely strong hull to almost any shape and speed pressures you would desire.
    A Naval Architect could massage the scantlings for a given hull volume and speed requirements. The framing could even be sawn with good lofting picking up all the frame bevels if the bending oak was too expensive to ship to the Great White North.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    It would be interesting from a historical perspective how powerboat planing hulls were built between the early 1900s (American Power Boat Association founded 1903) and the mid 40s when fiberglass and marine plywood were probably becoming more mainstream. Evinrude was building outboard motors starting around 1910.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    That cuddy in the bow of Capt Pete's boat is just stowage. You kneel on the cockpit sole and reach in for whatever gear - anchor and rode, fenders, dock lines, et cetera.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Paul Gartside has built a number of small boats for cruising the PNW for himself. Not of a planing type, his cruisimg designs extend to semi planing/ displacement but I'm sure he could model a 22ft planing type for you based on his smaller planing hulls like the strip planked 17ft Bosun.= design 190.

    He has shown one, design 210 'Turmoil' as glued double diagonal with semi built down constrution. It was in a past watercraft and would at least introduce the build method. I remember looking at its double cross planked planked diagonal bottom. It afforded not just a V but alot of curve. You'd be going pretty flat with a planing hull though.



    Design 141 is strip planked and semi displacement. After displacement then planing powerboats, I reckon semi displacement is pretty good - a bit faster, still comfortable, a bit more weight and space in the boat and time to look at the view - you don't have to concentrate on the patch immediately infront of the boat for pots. 12-16 knots with 50-75 inboard.



    Maybe ask him for a 24ft version of his lobsterboat.



    In the back of Gardners's book there is an 18ft small down east lobsterboat hull (only) thats carvel and planes if I recall. A bit smaller than you want though. Some of Bowdidge's fleet in the bigger sizes are strip planked hulls.

    There is more choice in ply in part for the stiffness/ weight but also higher froude speed running is more efficient with chined hull forms.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 02-22-2021 at 05:15 AM.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by kushtekaa View Post
    It would be interesting from a historical perspective how powerboat planing hulls were built between the early 1900s (American Power Boat Association founded 1903) and the mid 40s when fiberglass and marine plywood were probably becoming more mainstream. Evinrude was building outboard motors starting around 1910.
    I believe batten-seam construction was one method.
    Last edited by Matt young; 02-23-2021 at 04:57 PM.
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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Lowell’s book...Boat building Down East explains how they built Lobsterboats.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    It sounds to me like you need to build the house you want on a hull that will do the job. I am not finding much that would meet all your requirements, but you might take a close look at the Selway-Fisher power designs above and just below 20' long. Some of those are offered in strip plank versions that could work well for your use, say something like this Power 2.2 with a smaller outboard since you don't need (and won't want in any kind of waves) 30 knots.

    https://www.selway-fisher.com/Mc1620.htm#2
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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    There's no reason a hull designed for plywood cannot be built with sawn frames and solid timber planking. If you have some really nice clear red cedar you could lapstrake it over yellow cedar frames. Otherwise you might think about double planking. The bottom will need lots of support so add some big (deep) longitudinal girders. The hard part in traditional construction will be making a watertight well deck, there's a whole bunch of careful fitting at the deck edge. And ultimately that will be the spot where fresh water gets in and wrecks the structure.
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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    The traditional (solid timber) way to build a relatively light boat capable of being dry sailed was batten seam construction. I prefer lapstrake, but batten seam has some advantages for a planing power boat.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    For a hull that's going to be pounding thru 6' seas I'd want more than batten seam. Strips edge nailed is tough. Add a diagonal layer in epoxy and fiberglass cloth over either and you've got some serious durability and it won't ever leak.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    As TR said above, there is no reason that a ply boat design cannot be built in double-diagonal clinker or batten-seam construction. I also agree with his cautions. The tough bit is finding the design that is capable of the mission statement, and building the bottom & structure well enough to withstand the assault of the waves. Caulked seams will cause a world of hurt, so avoid traditional carvel construction. Scantlings may be an issue, so if you find a design that you like that is a for a different construction method that you plan to employ, maybe a conversation with your friendly neighbourhood boat designer (one with experience in small craft design, not a steel tugboat designer) may be in order.

    The closest design that fits your criteria that comes to my mind is not a outboard, but I think could be adapted to the propulsion method, is William Atkins' 22' 8" V-bottom rough-water runabout. The hull form is pretty good, although not particularly suited for high speeds. Freeboard is good, and generous side decks with washboards add to the sense of security. Atkin indicates a top speed of 18 mph with a 75-hp inboard; I think that a bit faster is feasible with the appendage drag of the rudder and skeg removed. http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Utilities/Brent.html

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    I don't recall any of Capt Pete Culler's "file bottom" outboards in your size range, but I bet if you get together with a naval architect who understands the concept you could get a lightish seaworthy and very efficient boat. It would be considerably longer and proportionatly narrower than your frozen snot model, but it's one of the few dimensional wood boats that can be drysailed.

    An enlarged version of:

    ing

    The longer and narrower than you plan is necessary for stabile construction and efficiency. It would be very hard to build the shape you pictured with dimensional wood. I think it could be done in about 30'. Probably locate the pilot house aft with centerline access both fore and aft. If you must have a head, plan on sitting headroom. Gotta keep it low.

    G'luck
    My uncle had one of these, neat boat. I think it was 24'. Note that the freeboard amidships is quite low; I'd want more freeboard for the conditions you describe.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    As TR said above, there is no reason that a ply boat design cannot be built in double-diagonal clinker or batten-seam construction. I also agree with his cautions. The tough bit is finding the design that is capable of the mission statement, and building the bottom & structure well enough to withstand the assault of the waves. Caulked seams will cause a world of hurt, so avoid traditional carvel construction. Scantlings may be an issue, so if you find a design that you like that is a for a different construction method that you plan to employ, maybe a conversation with your friendly neighbourhood boat designer (one with experience in small craft design, not a steel tugboat designer) may be in order.

    The closest design that fits your criteria that comes to my mind is not a outboard, but I think could be adapted to the propulsion method, is William Atkins' 22' 8" V-bottom rough-water runabout. The hull form is pretty good, although not particularly suited for high speeds. Freeboard is good, and generous side decks with washboards add to the sense of security. Atkin indicates a top speed of 18 mph with a 75-hp inboard; I think that a bit faster is feasible with the appendage drag of the rudder and skeg removed. http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Utilities/Brent.html
    Just out of curiosity, what would go in to converting an inboard design like that to outboard power? The need for a place to put the outboard with a slop well or inboard motor well is obvious, I mean what do you do with the skeg? eliminate it completely or just cut it down some?
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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    One thing to keep in mind is that today epoxy is cheaper than rivets and screws. Double planking with longitudinal framing using epoxy is the way to go.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Could someone please show a cross-section of these 3 different construction methods: double-diagonal clinker, batten-seam construction and double planking with longitudinal framing using epoxy.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Batten-seam = planks run longitudinally, the seams are covered on the inside by a batten. http://www.openboat.com.au/boatbuilding.html for illustration.
    Double diagonal = planks run diagonally, two layers at opposite angles. Can be screwed or riveted togheter with some waterproofing compound in between, or glued. If the planks all run longitudinally, it's double planking. If there are a lot of thin, glued, planking layers, it's called cold molding.
    Clinker = lapstrake = overlapping plank edges.
    Longitudinal framing = many stringers, supported by few widely spaced frames/bulkheads.
    Transverse framing = many frames closely spaced, only one or two stringers if at all.

    https://www.glen-l.com/picboards/picboard5/pic353c.html This is longitudinal framing, with cold molding over it (next page).

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Based on all this information are there any strip plank designs for a 22' +- planing powerboat, where I could add my own pilothouse? At this point it appears obvious that I should compromise and go ahead and fiberglass inside & out. This would be inline with my the initial design goals of being a light (efficient at speed) and durable design. Thanks for all your input, learning a good deal here.

    As far as the layout, I'm thinking of something like this but take out the back half of the pilothouse: https://duckworks.com/mark-v28-printed-plans/
    Last edited by kushtekaa; 02-23-2021 at 04:59 PM.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by kushtekaa View Post
    Based on all this information are there any strip plank designs for a 22' +- planing powerboat, where I could add my own pilothouse? At this point it appears obvious that I should compromise and go ahead and fiberglass inside & out. This would be inline with my the initial design goals of being a light (efficient at speed) and durable design. Thanks for all your input, learning a good deal here.

    As far as the layout, I'm thinking of something like this but take out the back half of the pilothouse: https://duckworks.com/mark-v28-printed-plans/
    Take another look at post #7.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    That is a plywood hull and they do not recommend an enclosed wheel house, plus they prefer an inboard over the outboard. However, it does meet the rough weather and efficiency goals. I guess I should have mentioned in the OP that I will definately have an outboard on it as I will be the only mechanic and I need plenty of elbow room when I start turning wrenches.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    kushtekaa, I think that the duckworks boat may have a bit too low freeboard for the purpose you wish to put it to. My opinion, anyway. If I may be so bold, your 'design brief' in the OP leads me to think that a boat similar to the Tolman Skiff Jumbo may be more suitable for your use. It is designed for plywood construction, but it would not be too difficult to modify it for edge-nailed strip construction with a 'glass sheathing. Permission would have to be obtained from the designer to modify the plans (this would probably void any designer support during the build, though). Plans are $40 (an absolute steal, IMHO). http://www.saltwaterworkshop.com/Tol...kan_Skiffs.php



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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Yes it's plywood, therefore it lends itself very well to strip planking and/or double diagonal over stringers.

    I can't imagine why they are opposed to the enclosed wheelhouse. They have been successfully built with an outboard in a well.

    It meets the rough weather and efficiency goals much better than anything else that's been suggested. In fact the only hull that I can think of that would be better and meet your requirements would be a 24' RIB with pilot house.

    I have a friend with a Bartender. He commutes down to Washington regardless of the weather regularly and year round and loves it.

    Maybe some others here will post their opinions.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    The Tolman Skiff was tops on my list before I started this thread. And the pilothouse has several variations. I did look over the book. I think it was the first edition & could not figure out from his description on how to build it. Not faulting him, it's just a hard thing to describe without lots of detailed photos and/or videos. I'm sure I could figure it out with some head scratching and some trial & error.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    I know well the area and waters you intend to use the boat in. 6' seas in Lynn Canal are entirely wind driven waves, and often Southerly against the ebb tide. They can be dangerously steep. I would be dreaming up reasons to keep my steel troller tied to the dock in that, much less take out a planing boat with an open bow.

    If you truly have an itch to build a boat instead of just buying one to start using tomorrow, I'd take a hard look at the Tolman. They will accommodate most of your intended uses and Renn designed them for our waters. They are a shallower deadrise in the stern than most production boats. The advantage is more fuel efficient under way, and more stable at rest for the fishing stuff. But she won't ride as well in a bigger chop as the deeper vee boats. There's a beautiful Tolman here in Sitka that is rigged to hand-troll salmon, and I see it out at Cape Edgecumbe on the fairer days. They can be built with self-bailing cockpits as well.

    A few thoughts-
    The cost of shipping ply and epoxy into SE isn't significant in the overall cost of the build. Your windows and frames alone will be 2-3 times that cost (and plan well ahead - Diamond SeaGlaze is 4-5 months out on new orders, fyi). The outboard will ether be expensive or troublesome. Charter boat take-offs can be cheap, but are a gamble. Fuel tanks are either pre-fabs that are shipped up (expensive and must build the boat around their dimensions) or custom fabbed aluminum by local tradesman (expensive but fit just so). Not a sexy item, but necessary to consider early on the build.

    A heated cabin on an outboard powered boat means a diesel heater of some sort, and with that many wet warming bodies you'll need a serious defroster on at least one of the helm windows.

    When you decide where the aft cabin bulkhead goes, place a HIGH priority on deck space over cabin space, my $.02. The fun all happens on deck, and that's where you'll spend most of your time. On the rare long runs during bad weather people can swap in and out of the cabin for warmups, but you can't increase the deck space to fit conditions. Build her for the abuse of pot fishing and your subsistence longline sets (SS corner protectors or aluminum caprails, maybe aluminum diamond plate cockpit sole and bulwarks, etc), and everything else you do won't be a challenge.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Bowdidge Pro Tournament 24 is strip planked and glass...deep V. There's a 21, 24 and 26ft. He's factored in the steering console in the middle so a bit of light ply for a small wheelhouse and you shouldn't affect weight distribution. Maybe a bit more windage though.







    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 02-24-2021 at 06:25 AM.

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    Default Re: 22'+- Traditional Construction Planing Hull Options?

    Hans2 made a good case for why you should be looking at plywood construction despite shipping costs. Most of Sam Devlin's designs along the lines of your criteria are a little too slow, but his North Haven 24 might be worth a look.



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    *******
    Matthew Long
    Bolger fan (Brick, Yellow Leaf, June Bug, Tortoise and half a Teal)
    Dreaming of a small cruiser from Atkin, Bolger, Buehler or Parker
    www.cluttonfred.info (I also like homebuilt airplanes!)

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