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Thread: More Republican Party Fracturing

  1. #246
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Polls, schmolls. They are BS in this day & age. All the wishful thinking of the GOP "fracturing" is just that.

    Sorry - but I expect to see these fascists get into power & trash the US.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  2. #247
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    "Cracked". That word. They keep using that word. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

    Some more correct terms might include
    • "fractured"
    • "broken"
    • "sheared through"




    https://www.npr.org/2021/05/12/99640...g-supply-chain

    Cracked Memphis Bridge Indefinitely Closed, Disrupting Supply Chain
    May 12, 202111:05 PM ET
    Vanessa Romo & Debbie Elliot

    Traffic on and below a major bridge over the Mississippi River near Memphis, Tenn., could be halted for several days or longer, causing significant disruptions to motorists and shipping, officials said Wednesday.

    Authorities in Arkansas and Tennessee, along with the U.S. Coast Guard, indefinitely stopped all traffic related to the Hernando de Soto Bridge on Interstate 40 after inspectors discovered a crack in the steel structure Tuesday, and Tennessee officials said repairs could take some time.

    The bridge connects Memphis to West Memphis, Ark., and is above a crucial waterway for barges transporting crops to export markets. Crews have begun emergency repairs.

    Inspectors discovered a major fracture in a steel beam on the bottom truss crucial to the integrity of the bridge. Officials said it was found during a routine inspection.

    . . .
    Rattling the teacups.

  3. #248
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    That SFB pulled another 11 million voters to him in 2020 is maybe the most depressing part of the past 5 years. Eleven fooking million. After everything that happened, and everything includes over 500,000 dead Americans.

  4. #249
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Polls, schmolls. They are BS in this day & age. All the wishful thinking of the GOP "fracturing" is just that.

    Sorry - but I expect to see these fascists get into power & trash the US.
    You are not alone in insisting on jumping ahead to AFTER the fractures.

    I'm saying the cracks are forming at the same time that remodeling is happening. It's dynamic, but the fracturing has not ceases, and prolly will not cease for a while.

    And how will it shape up after? An actual new Third Party? A consolidation of power around the tribal wing? Some Grand Rapproachment between the two factions? We could start a thread about that... if there isn't already one. This thread was an attempt to note the cracks forming... for whatever that will mean.

    You are also not alone in misapprehending what 'fracturing' is. It's not the same as 'sundering'.




    Since there seems to be a number of folks who didn't read it before... here's a nicely annotated dictionary entry on the definitions of 'fracturing' --

    People keep saying stuff like this. How can it slough off bits that are still integrated... where there's been no break or rupture that allows that 'sloughing off'? (See definitions 1a, b)

    I certainly see damage (2a)

    I see disorder (2b)

    Are not some of the R's saying the tRump wing is going beyond their (gag) limits? (2d)

    I'd even argue that it doesn't take much imagination to see a New Party - led by the saner R's - to 'fractionate' off from the R's (2c). I'm not predicting it at present, but I'm sure not ruling out the possibility.


    fracture
    verb

    fractured; fracturing\ ˈfrak-​chə-​riŋ

    Definition of fracture (Entry 2 of 2)

    transitive verb

    1a: to cause a crack or fracture in : BREAKfracture a rib
    b: RUPTURE, TEAR

    2a: to damage or destroy as if by rupturing
    b: to cause great disorder in
    c: to break up : FRACTIONATE
    d: to go beyond the limits of (something, such as a rule) : VIOLATEfractured many of the laws of probability …
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  5. #250
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    The problem is that the structure of US politics makes it very, very difficult to form a new party with any chance of success, and every halfway-intelligent politician knows that. Being a spoiler is fairly simple, but actually winning isn't. The last time it happened was the chaos before the US civil war. The Bull Moose party lost, Wallace's American Party lost, Ross Perot lost. The two big parties change, often dramatically over a long enough period, but braking up and re-forming, almost never. Having blocs of voter shift parties, sure. New England switched from solid Republican to mostly Democratic. White southerners switched from 100% Democrats to majority Republican. The rural-urban divide that defines current politics is fairly new. So I think it's more likely that groups of voters will switch parties than that the two-party structure itself will change all that much, and Mr Trump appears to be starting to drive away more moderate white Republican voters pretty effectively. (I say 'white', but the Republicans really are the White Man's Party.)
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  6. #251
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    As I said, a running a spoiler campaign is pretty easy.

    The Politico piece may very well be wrong, but 'Republican propaganda' it isn't. Estimating the Republicans' chances highly could as well have the effect of energizing their opposition.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 05-13-2021 at 10:23 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  7. #252
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    David - I am well aware of what the word "fracturing" means. However, I don't see any fracturing. I see sloughing off of what the trumpists view as diseased skin - but nothing as major as fracturing.

    I am not jumping ahead to anything that IMO is not a logical progression from where we are right now. While many current day Reps may be evil, they aren't stupid & they know a 3rd party would only hand things to the Dems.

    When will Dems learn the difference between winning & hoping the Reps lose?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  8. #253
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    ^ Aye, all too often David takes disagreeing with his brilliance to mean 'we need more educating'.

    strangely, I find your post frighteningly accurate.

  9. #254
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    ^ Aye, all too often David takes disagreeing with his brilliance to mean 'we need more educating'.
    No problem with disagreement. Real problem with ill-considered, or knee-jerk, or tribal, or ignorant disagreement - which one is then unable to support.

    I agree that there is room to call what's happening in the R party a sloughing off of dead/infected skin.

    I think it's incorrect. I think it's a reach. I think there's a reason it's taken until page 7 for it to be bruited. But at least it's a plausible argument.

    And so... sometimes... 'need more educating' is precisely correct <G>
    David G
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  10. #255
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    The thing about fracturing or whatever is that is presumes some sort of former wholeness, which may not have existed, except for propaganda purposes. Like Hitler violating the pact with Stalin. Everyone knew it was bull S from the beginning. Sure it could be called a "fracture" but what was fractured wasn't worth a S in the first place.

    Republicans believed they could absorb the south, and here we are. Not just the south, but Reds across the nation, around the world. Lots of real power and money to be gained, such as the former two-bit patricians thought was beneath them, comically over-estimating their influence on the rabble.

  11. #256
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    No problem with disagreement. Real problem with ill-considered, or knee-jerk, or tribal, or ignorant disagreement - which one is then unable to support.

    I agree that there is room to call what's happening in the R party a sloughing off of dead/infected skin.

    I think it's incorrect. I think it's a reach. I think there's a reason it's taken until page 7 for it to be bruited. But at least it's a plausible argument.

    And so... sometimes... 'need more educating' is precisely correct <G>
    Oh, yes.

    There is definitely a reason.

    Rattling the teacups.

  12. #257
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    No problem with disagreement. Real problem with ill-considered, or knee-jerk, or tribal, or ignorant disagreement - which one is then unable to support.

    I agree that there is room to call what's happening in the R party a sloughing off of dead/infected skin.

    I think it's incorrect. I think it's a reach. I think there's a reason it's taken until page 7 for it to be bruited. But at least it's a plausible argument.

    And so... sometimes... 'need more educating' is precisely correct <G>
    Pg 4 # 159:

    They aren't fracturing. The Trump wing is coalescing it's base & power, weeding out the RINOs & semi-sane ones in preparation for a complete takeover 6-12 months before the midterms. They will have money, strong support & will be blitzing the country.

    We're just seeing little skirmishes of cleansing the party to lull the rest of us into a false sense of security.
    Yaknow - the arrogance (especially when you were incorrect) gets to be a bit much on occasion sir.
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  13. #258
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    You are not alone in insisting on jumping ahead to AFTER the fractures.

    I'm saying the cracks are forming at the same time that remodeling is happening. It's dynamic, but the fracturing has not ceases, and prolly will not cease for a while.

    And how will it shape up after? An actual new Third Party? A consolidation of power around the tribal wing? Some Grand Rapproachment between the two factions? We could start a thread about that... if there isn't already one. This thread was an attempt to note the cracks forming... for whatever that will mean.

    You are also not alone in misapprehending what 'fracturing' is. It's not the same as 'sundering'.




    Since there seems to be a number of folks who didn't read it before... here's a nicely annotated dictionary entry on the definitions of 'fracturing' --

    People keep saying stuff like this. How can it slough off bits that are still integrated... where there's been no break or rupture that allows that 'sloughing off'? (See definitions 1a, b)

    I certainly see damage (2a)

    I see disorder (2b)

    Are not some of the R's saying the tRump wing is going beyond their (gag) limits? (2d)

    I'd even argue that it doesn't take much imagination to see a New Party - led by the saner R's - to 'fractionate' off from the R's (2c). I'm not predicting it at present, but I'm sure not ruling out the possibility.


    fracture
    verb

    fractured; fracturing\ ˈfrak-​chə-​riŋ

    Definition of fracture (Entry 2 of 2)

    transitive verb

    1a: to cause a crack or fracture in : BREAKfracture a rib
    b: RUPTURE, TEAR

    2a: to damage or destroy as if by rupturing
    b: to cause great disorder in
    c: to break up : FRACTIONATE
    d: to go beyond the limits of (something, such as a rule) : VIOLATEfractured many of the laws of probability …
    It seems to me that when something fractures, there is usually more than one coherent part after the fracture has occurred. In that sense, I'm not seeing a fracture. It's more like someone took a belt sander to the Republican Party and removed a small part of the surface that they deemed excess. If you wish to call that fracturing, okay, it's fractured.

  14. #259
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    No problem with disagreement. Real problem with ill-considered, or knee-jerk, or tribal, or ignorant disagreement - which one is then unable to support.

    I agree that there is room to call what's happening in the R party a sloughing off of dead/infected skin.

    I think it's incorrect. I think it's a reach. I think there's a reason it's taken until page 7 for it to be bruited. But at least it's a plausible argument.

    And so... sometimes... 'need more educating' is precisely correct <G>
    yeah, we do have that issue with you - see above posts.

  15. #260
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    We need a poll.

  16. #261
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    It seems to me that when something fractures, there is usually more than one coherent part after the fracture has occurred. In that sense, I'm not seeing a fracture. It's more like someone took a belt sander to the Republican Party and removed a small part of the surface that they deemed excess. If you wish to call that fracturing, okay, it's fractured.
    That is, indeed, ONE distinct definition of 'fracture'. See 2c above.

    But definition 1a. That's 1a - calls out "to cause a crack... in" You ever seen an x-ray of a fractured bone? Or a stress fracture? Often a crack so small it can barely be discerned. Sometimes the medicos even argue over whether the fracture exists at all (I'm recalling former Trailblazer Greg Oden)... as some here continue to do.

    Did I mention that 'crack' thing is the first definition offered? And did you notice that there are also mentions of 'damaging', and 'going beyond limits', and 'causing' disorder'? Seems apt to me.

    But no matter - I've posted pages of examples. Evidence of SOMETHING happening in the R party.

    If y'all want to call that something 'sloughing', or 'acid-dipping', or 'exfoliating', or 'belt-sanding', or 'pogroms'... if you really believe there are better analogies... have at it.

    But rather than argue labels/semantics... or personalities... how about we get back to discussing the actual events?

    David G
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    That is, indeed, ONE distinct definition of 'fracture'. See 2c above.

    But definition 1a. That's 1a - calls out "to cause a crack... in" You ever seen an x-ray of a fractured bone? Or a stress fracture? Often a crack so small it can barely be discerned. Sometimes the medicos even argue over whether the fracture exists at all (I'm recalling former Trailblazer Greg Oden)... as some here continue to do.

    Did I mention that 'crack' thing is the first definition offered? And did you notice that there are also mentions of 'damaging', and 'going beyond limits', and 'causing' disorder'? Seems apt to me.

    But no matter - I've posted pages of examples. Evidence of SOMETHING happening in the R party.

    If y'all want to call that something 'sloughing', or 'acid-dipping', or 'exfoliating', or 'belt-sanding', or 'pogroms'... if you really believe there are better analogies... have at it.

    But rather than argue labels/semantics... or personalities... how about we get back to discussing the actual events?

    A fractured bone usually has more than one coherent part, just as that bridge that fractured does. You've done several posts about the definition of 'fracture,' now you object to people answering those posts? Why?

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    A fractured bone usually has more than one coherent part, just as that bridge that fractured does. You've done several posts about the definition of 'fracture,' now you object to people answering those posts? Why?
    <sigh>

    OK... if you want to ignore my plea to get away from terms/semantics... I'll do one more round. After that... Mastadons will not nudge me back that way.

    Yes... a fractured bone often 'has more than one coherent part'. But not necessarily. And what people seems to be basing their objections to the term on is an insistence on the 'complete fracture' version of the definition. There really IS such a thing as an Incomplete Fracture. I think we have, at the least, reached that stage. Though, in the end, we might witness a Complete Fracture.

    Incomplete vs. Complete

    In an incomplete fracture, your bone doesn’t break completely. In other words, it cracks without breaking all the way through. Types of incomplete fracture include:

    • hairline fracture, in which your bone is broken in a thin crack
    • greenstick fracture, in which your bone is broken on one side, while the other side is bent
    • buckle or torus fracture, in which your bone is broken on one side and a bump or raised buckle develops on the other side
    I remain convinced of the aptness of the analogy to current events. The most apt, in fact (though that might just be me being stubborn).

    But for now... let's just call it a 'Warp In The Space-Time Continuum'... or a Sudden & Radical Shift within the party... and talk about the events, shall we?
    Last edited by David G; 05-14-2021 at 02:13 PM.
    David G
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  19. #264
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    <sigh>

    OK... if you want to ignore my plea to get away from terms/semantics... I'll do one more round. After that... Mastadons will not nudge me back that way.

    Yes... a fractured bone often 'has more than one coherent part'. But not necessarily. And what people seems to be basing their objections to the term on is an insistence on the 'complete fracture' version of the definition. There really IS such a thing as an Incomplete Fracture. I think we have, at the least, reached that stage. Though, in the end, we might witness a Complete Fracture.



    I remain convinced of the aptness of the analogy to current events. The most apt, in fact (though that might just be me being stubborn).

    But for now... let's just call it a 'Warp In The Space-Time Continuum'... or a Sudden & Radical Shift within the party... and talk about the events, shall we?
    Have you thought of putting fracture on the word a day thread?

    What we need is evidence that enough Republicans are leaving the party to really weaken it. What specifically worries me is the drift toward illiberal democracy, in which the forms are largely preserved, but the norms are violated and the result is an undemocratic system. If the Republican party were fracturing, there would be enough conservative pushback against the drift away from democracy to prevent policies which undermine democracy. It isn't happening.

    I'm looking at this in terms of the book "How Democracies Die:"

    https://www.independent.org/publicat...le.asp?id=1334

    Authors Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt begin by motivating their inquiry with an interesting phenomenon. Since the end of the Cold War, most democracies have not been overthrown externally by violent military coups, but internally through the ballot box and the subsequent capture of political institutions by autocrats. Though history doesn’t repeat itself, “it rhymes” (p. 10), and particularly alarmed by the recent election of Donald Trump, the authors wish to uncover similar patterns, or “rhymes” as they would put it, of institutional erosion across democracies both in the distant and more recent past, including Venezuela, Turkey, and Hungary.
    Oz thinks I'm naïve because I don't think what we have to fear is the violent overthrow of our system of government, but based on recent history, the threat is much more insidious. It's all very well to crow about how the Republican Party is fracturing and say anyone who disagrees is putting out Republican propaganda, but the anti-democratic wing of the Republican Party is actually growing in power, and those who still value democracy are being frozen out.

    You can call it fracturing if you like, but it looks to me like the sane wing of the party is losing power, and the crazy wing is gaining power.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Have you thought of putting fracture on the word a day thread?

    What we need is evidence that enough Republicans are leaving the party to really weaken it. What specifically worries me is the drift toward illiberal democracy, in which the forms are largely preserved, but the norms are violated and the result is an undemocratic system. If the Republican party were fracturing, there would be enough conservative pushback against the drift away from democracy to prevent policies which undermine democracy. It isn't happening.

    I'm looking at this in terms of the book "How Democracies Die:"



    Oz thinks I'm naïve because I don't think what we have to fear is the violent overthrow of our system of government, but based on recent history, the threat is much more insidious. It's all very well to crow about how the Republican Party is fracturing and say anyone who disagrees is putting out Republican propaganda, but the anti-democratic wing of the Republican Party is actually growing in power, and those who still value democracy are being frozen out.

    You can call it fracturing if you like, but it looks to me like the sane wing of the party is losing power, and the crazy wing is gaining power.
    My apologies, John.

    Clearly you are largely correct, but I believe that there will be some sort of protracted political violence as an integral part of the process through which we descend into illiberal democracy.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    My apologies, John.

    Clearly you are largely correct, but I believe that there will be some sort of protracted political violence as an integral part of the process through which we descend into illiberal democracy.
    I suspect you're right about that, but the mechanics of subverting the democratic system will be things like the new Georgia law, where the legislature is in charge of certifying the election. If they decide to give their electors to a Republican who got fewer votes than the Democrat, all the while claiming they are doing this for 'election integrity,' there won't be a need for a violent overthrow.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I suspect you're right about that, but the mechanics of subverting the democratic system will be things like the new Georgia law, where the legislature is in charge of certifying the election. If they decide to give their electors to a Republican who got fewer votes than the Democrat, all the while claiming they are doing this for 'election integrity,' there won't be a need for a violent overthrow.
    Sez you.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Sez you.
    In my humble opinion.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Have you thought of putting fracture on the word a day thread?

    What we need is evidence that enough Republicans are leaving the party to really weaken it. What specifically worries me is the drift toward illiberal democracy, in which the forms are largely preserved, but the norms are violated and the result is an undemocratic system. If the Republican party were fracturing, there would be enough conservative pushback against the drift away from democracy to prevent policies which undermine democracy. It isn't happening.

    I'm looking at this in terms of the book "How Democracies Die:"



    Oz thinks I'm naïve because I don't think what we have to fear is the violent overthrow of our system of government, but based on recent history, the threat is much more insidious. It's all very well to crow about how the Republican Party is fracturing and say anyone who disagrees is putting out Republican propaganda, but the anti-democratic wing of the Republican Party is actually growing in power, and those who still value democracy are being frozen out.

    You can call it fracturing if you like, but it looks to me like the sane wing of the party is losing power, and the crazy wing is gaining power.
    Trump has solid support of 70% of those who identify as Republicans. That leads one to believe 30% of Republicans are not 'solidly' behind him.

    There are other factors.

    We're approaching 500 people in custody for storming the Capital. They likely have families. At some point it will dawn on them that the man they did this for declined issuing them pardons, and they are facing prison. Seems likely that will have some impact on coming elections.

    It's entirely possible that before voting begins next year Trump will be a defendant in criminal and/or civil proceedings. Hard to tell how that will impact how people vote.

    A number of Republican governors have denied their unemployed the extra $300 from the Covid relief bill. That may impact how they vote.

    Lot of unknowns coming.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I suspect you're right about that, but the mechanics of subverting the democratic system will be things like the new Georgia law, where the legislature is in charge of certifying the election. If they decide to give their electors to a Republican who got fewer votes than the Democrat, all the while claiming they are doing this for 'election integrity,' there won't be a need for a violent overthrow.
    In this regard, let us hope the courts hold up. Normally, I'd not think any of these voter suppression bills would hold up, but today I'd not count on the courts.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I suspect you're right about that, but the mechanics of subverting the democratic system will be things like the new Georgia law, where the legislature is in charge of certifying the election. If they decide to give their electors to a Republican who got fewer votes than the Democrat, all the while claiming they are doing this for 'election integrity,' there won't be a need for a violent overthrow.
    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Sez you.
    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    In my humble opinion.
    Well, if these seditious ratfreakers decide to pull that spit, I for one would definitely see a need for a violent overthrow.

    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    I might just have to start a thread on The Liberal Opposition Fracturing...

    The truth is - there is turmoil on the right as a talented demagogue attempts to overthrow the constitution... and everyone in 'his' party is faced with personal decisions about whether to support him... for various partisan, power, tribal, habitual, and financial reasons. Or if they have a line. Beyond which they will not go. And what to do when the demagogue crosses it (as he surely will).

    And those of us on the left are attempting to make some sort of sense of the chaos. And deciding how to confront it. Write a tweet? Armor up yourself and your buddies and train for the coming violent overthrow of our grand experiment in self-governance? Supported by elements of the police and military... while other elements, who LIKE authoritarianism, support the demagogue.

    Or something in between. It reminds me a bit of Weimar Germany. And the rise of Hitler. And the invasions of Checkoslovakia, then Austria, then Poland, then... well, you know the drill. All while the Allies dithered, and the 'sane' Germans dithered and rationalized and did their own doomed political calculus.

    Maybe the next serious thread I start - not just cool knives, best salmon recipes, or beautiful color photography - will be about how we on the left respond most effectively.
    Last edited by David G; 05-15-2021 at 10:43 AM.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  28. #273
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    (CNN)The current drama in the GOP is the latest and most concrete evidence that the party is undergoing a very painful evolution.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/15/polit...split-history/
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  29. #274
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I might just have to start a thread on The Liberal Opposition Fracturing...

    The truth is - there is turmoil on the right as a talented demagogue attempts to overthrow the constitution... and everyone in 'his' party is faced with personal decisions about whether to support him... for various partisan, power, tribal, habitual, and financial reasons. Or if they have a line. Beyond which they will not go. And what to do when the demagogue crosses it (as he surely will).

    And those of us on the left are attempting to make some sort of sense of the chaos. And deciding how to confront it. Write a tweet? Armor up yourself and your buddies and train for the coming violent overthrow of our grand experiment in self-governance? Supported by elements of the police and military... while other elements, who LIKE authoritarianism, support the demagogue.

    Or something in between. It reminds me a bit of Weimar Germany. And the rise of Hitler. And the invasions of Checkoslovakia, then Austria, then Poland, then... well, you know the drill. All while the Allies dithered, and the 'sane' Germans dithered and rationalized and did their own doomed political calculus.

    Maybe the next serious thread I start - not just cool knives, best salmon recipes, or beautiful color photography - will be about how we on the left respond most effectively.
    The first bit is a grand idea, and will likely run to 40 pages . . . unless you try to dictate how we on the left respond most effectively.

    It may sound improbable, but I get the feeling the Democratic Party is more deeply fissured than the Trumpistas.

    Much more.

    I have begun to revise my model of this chaos, and it may be that the L. Chaneys and Mitt Romneys of the world will move to co-opt the Democratic Party.

    Such a development would yield a dedicated adversary to the Lunatrump Party, and utterly alienate a huge swath of the Democrat demographic.

    This in turn would leave room for the new political party to emerge on the Left, rather than the right.

    Either way, it's clear to me the US is going to sprout a new political party in the next 5-10 years.
    Rattling the teacups.

  30. #275
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    The first bit is a grand idea, and will likely run to 40 pages . . . unless you try to dictate how we on the left respond most effectively.

    It may sound improbable, but I get the feeling the Democratic Party is more deeply fissured than the Trumpistas.

    Much more.

    I have begun to revise my model of this chaos, and it may be that the L. Chaneys and Mitt Romneys of the world will move to co-opt the Democratic Party.

    Such a development would yield a dedicated adversary to the Lunatrump Party, and utterly alienate a huge swath of the Democrat demographic.

    This in turn would leave room for the new political party to emerge on the Left, rather than the right.

    Either way, it's clear to me the US is going to sprout a new political party in the next 5-10 years.
    The Dem party was really fractured in 2016. I think it's better now, but your idea that the centrists from both parties could form a party is an interesting concept: I'll give you abortion rights if you allow me to restrict voting, etc. I can see something like that happening.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  31. #276
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    They are certainly dissing the constitution.

    I'd not make predictions other than things will get interesting if/when Trump is the defendant in civil and/or criminal cases, as well as how the courts hold up, or fail to hold up.

    Normally I'd be unable to conceive of courts supporting laws that make voting more difficult, or making it illegal to provide water to those standing on line. Today's court is less predictable.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  32. #277
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    The Dem party was really fractured in 2016. I think it's better now, but your idea that the centrists from both parties could form a party is an interesting concept: I'll give you abortion rights if you allow me to restrict voting, etc. I can see something like that happening.
    There's a shake-up coming, and no mistake.

    It's fun to wonder which way it'll break.
    Rattling the teacups.

  33. #278
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Maybe the next serious thread I start - not just cool knives, best salmon recipes, or beautiful color photography - will be about how we on the left respond most effectively.
    Our motto: Defund The Police

  34. #279
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Our motto: Defund The Police
    Those on the right are much better wordsmiths. That's often a problem.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  35. #280
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Our motto: Defund The Police
    Worst Motto Ever.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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