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Thread: More Republican Party Fracturing

  1. #176
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Where on earth did you get that from?

    Of course the Rep party is a danger - but I don't think most Dems get just how dangerous it is.
    It’s no secret, of course they do. But as the Republican party structure and the mainstream/conservative media structure that enabled the rise of the whack job fringe is still there, the crazy party will persist, and Dems gave no good idea how to change it.

  2. #177
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    There are some very good Dem politicians. I don't know what it is, but whenever any get into the DNC they seem to morph. Well Wasserman-Shultz had already morphed - but even Howard Dean, from a rural state, seemed to go along ith the ignore rural voters mantra.

    Sure - there are more people in the cities, but the electoral college is a reality, so rural voters cannot be ignored.
    Wyoming, population: 578,000 people. The county I live in here in NJ, has just under half of that. I am not saying that the people who live in that lonely state do not deserve a voice, but their voices are much louder than the ones here in NJ
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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  3. #178
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    The Dakotas, Wyoming, Washington, Montana, Idaho - states that are only states because of Republican Senate packing.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Inertia in old party structures is very strong. Ideology, old resentments, personal empires, policy debts and administrative staff tied to a particular politician or structure resist and cannot usually be replaced in big enough numbers quickly to cahnge a party's direction. The old GOP was trending to the right long before donald came along.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Wyoming, population: 578,000 people. The county I live in here in NJ, has just under half of that. I am not saying that the people who live in that lonely state do not deserve a voice, but their voices are much louder than the ones here in NJ
    The county I live in has about 550,000 people. The one next door has 1.3 million.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Wyoming, population: 578,000 people. The county I live in here in NJ, has just under half of that. I am not saying that the people who live in that lonely state do not deserve a voice, but their voices are much louder than the ones here in NJ
    VT is another one (630K), but whether or not anyone agrees with the electoral college concept is immaterial - it's in place & the Dems simply cannot ignore it as they have.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    That may be exactly what they're after:

    Yeah. "For a little while . . . "

    Then, suddenly, "The Thrill Is Gone"

    I guess the injured innocence theme requires a mythic death.

  8. #183
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    They aren't fracturing. The Trump wing is coalescing it's base & power, weeding out the RINOs & semi-sane ones in preparation for a complete takeover 6-12 months before the midterms. They will have money, strong support & will be blitzing the country.

    We're just seeing little skirmishes of cleansing the party to lull the rest of us into a false sense of security.
    From this side of the Atlantic, Garret is absolutely right. Your Republicans are doing exactly what our Conservatives did.

    Liz Cheney = Dominic Grieve

    The Trumpery will purge all the remaining respectable Republicans and then embark on a blitz.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  9. #184
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    From this side of the Atlantic, Garret is absolutely right. Your Republicans are doing exactly what our Conservatives did.

    Liz Cheney = Dominic Grieve

    The Trumpery will purge all the remaining respectable Republicans and then embark on a blitz.
    Trump's biggest weapon is the people who think he's stupid. Evil, perhaps, but not stupid.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  10. #185
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Evil. Not stupid. Cunning, ruthless and devious. As someone here points out, his trick is to use the social media to sell to the unthinking majority the idea that they are better than someone.

    This is a very old and ugly trick. It nearly always works.

    It goes like this. You tell people that yes, they are the smart ones, and even more important they are the morally superior ones.

    You tell them that they don’t need to struggle with new thoughts and ideas. They have been right all along. They can carry on just as they always have. You understand them. You’d be happy to have a Big Mac and a Coke with them. Yes, they are much better than those thieving immoral elites. The school of hard knocks is better than University. Or as that evil Trumpery figure Modi puts it, “Hard work is better than Harvard”. Of course they are “hard working” (they are not, but they like to be told that they are.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  11. #186
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Trumps cunning, amoral, and yes, quite stupid and lazy. If it weren’t for the last two he’d be President.

    Hes selling them a truth they already believe.

  12. #187
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    They aren't fracturing. The Trump wing is coalescing it's base & power, weeding out the RINOs & semi-sane ones in preparation for a complete takeover 6-12 months before the midterms. They will have money, strong support & will be blitzing the country.

    We're just seeing little skirmishes of cleansing the party to lull the rest of us into a false sense of security.
    This. Emphatically so.

    They are not fracturing. They are distilling the sickness down to a science, or what passes for science in the twisted logic of Trumpisim. MTG is the new fundraising darling of the party and Gaetz has proven that it doesn't mean SFA if you're caught diddling underage girls.

    Fracturing. Laughable!

  13. #188
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Our lot didn’t fracture. Far from it. My local MP went from being a supporter of EU membership to an outright apologist for Johnson as her majority increased and she was promoted to senior Cabinet rank.

    The Republicans will bond more and more closely together as the soggy mass of Republicans compare the treatment handed out to Liz Cheney with the treatment handed out to Matt Gaetz.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Cheney's done. Her op-ed in today's Washington Post speaks her defiance and challenge to her erstwhile colleagues. Challenging them to step away from what she name-checks as a Trump cult of personality, and acknowledge the truth of the recent election loss. Challenges them to stick with their oaths to serve the Constitution, and resist decline into the antidemocratic states which she points to in other parts of the world.

    It's her exit interview. Her manifesto for the next party she wishes to lead. But she is not a Republican in any current sense of the word. And may be evicted not only from the leadership, but the caucus.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  15. #190
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Cheney's done. Her op-ed in today's Washington Post speaks her defiance and challenge to her erstwhile colleagues. Challenging them to step away from what she name-checks as a Trump cult of personality, and acknowledge the truth of the recent election loss. Challenges them to stick with their oaths to serve the Constitution, and resist decline into the antidemocratic states which she points to in other parts of the world.

    It's her exit interview. Her manifesto for the next party she wishes to lead. But she is not a Republican in any current sense of the word. And may be evicted not only from the leadership, but the caucus.
    That doesn't mean I have to trust her, does it?

    Rattling the teacups.

  16. #191
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Nope!
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Well put!

    On the Sirius version of MSNBC, I think. Three or four pundits punditing, what is her calculus, well I think that depends on how she wants to position herself going forward, yadda yadda.

    Finally the host says, hey Susan, I'm sorry, we're short on time. Let's hear the final word from you.

    Susan says, you all are making way too much out of this. Liz Cheney has run out of effs to give.

  18. #193
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    So... on one side, you have the True Believers in the CheetoJesus. The cynical leaders and the lumpenproletariat.

    On the other side, you have those who are willing to buck the trend in allegiance to the nation, the constitution, and their oath of office. Liz Cheney, Megan McCain, Mitt Romney, Asa Hutchinson, etc.

    And it's getting ugly. But still some here see no 'fracturing'.

    Last edited by David G; 05-06-2021 at 11:11 AM.
    David G
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    So... on one side, you have the True Believers in the CheetoJesus. The cynical leaders and the lumpenproletariat.

    On the other side, you have those who are willing to buck the trend in allegiance to the nation, the constitution, and their oath of office. Liz Cheney, Megan McCain, Mitt Romney, Asa Hutchinson, etc.

    And it's getting ugly. But still some here see no 'fracturing'.

    What I see is ugly, all right. What I see is the sane caucus being ejected from the party, while the party is uniting around the Cheeto Benito.

  20. #195
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    What I see is ugly, all right. What I see is the sane caucus being ejected from the party, while the party is uniting around the Cheeto Benito.
    Are you suggesting that's NOT fracturing?

    If the analogy is bones... the 'party is uniting around the Cheeto Benito' would correspond to the 'remodeling' stage of a fracture, no?
    David G
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  21. #196
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Are you suggesting that's NOT fracturing?

    If the analogy is bones... the 'party is uniting around the Cheeto Benito' would correspond to the 'remodeling' stage of a fracture, no?
    I think you will be seeing a very united Republican Party which has lost very few people. The 'sane caucus' is what, about 15 people who will actually run again? They've been running off about that many RINOs per election for a long time.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    The Dakotas, Wyoming, Washington, Montana, Idaho - states that are only states because of Republican Senate packing.
    Washington shouldn't be on your list- we have 7.6M people, well over 1/50 of the US population, and both our senators are democrats.

  23. #198
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I think you will be seeing a very united Republican Party which has lost very few people. The 'sane caucus' is what, about 15 people who will actually run again? They've been running off about that many RINOs per election for a long time.
    You could be right. Or not.

    My point is that the split is happening.

    How it shakes out following the split is open to debate. As the Chait piece from a recent thread suggests, it's a profound split with existential-level consequences. And, sadly and ironically, people like Cheney hold the key. Whether they prevail... is another question. I say they will... but am not offering odds.
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I think you will be seeing a very united Republican Party which has lost very few people. The 'sane caucus' is what, about 15 people who will actually run again? They've been running off about that many RINOs per election for a long time.
    Yeah. Tarzan say, wake up, smell coffee.

    Many RINO's just up and resigned in mid-term.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    They're losing voters at a faster rate than they're losing candidates though. Maybe not losing them in races in which it matters - as there are few of those, nowadays - but still. What Biden's doing is overwhelmingly popular with Americans. Ultimately, that tide will rise.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    You could be right. Or not.

    My point is that the split is happening.

    How it shakes out following the split is open to debate. As the Chait piece from a recent thread suggests, it's a profound split with existential-level consequences. And, sadly and ironically, people like Cheney hold the key. Whether they prevail... is another question. I say they will... but am not offering odds.
    Of course that's your point, it's just that you're not making it very well.

    The Republican Party seems to be sloughing off the few relatively sane members it has left, consolidating the Insane Core, and adding lots of disgruntled Morons who think 'sticking it to the libs' is patriotic.

    That's not 'fracturing'.

    Sorry.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    The lying, authoritarian, nihilist, venal, power-first wing of the party is working hard to firm up their grip on the apparatus. But despite the vehemence... the polling isn't showing the amount of actual grass-roots support they'd like y'all to believe they have. A lie many D's have swallowed, it seems.



    House GOP campaign wing reportedly withheld bad Trump polling from lawmakers at retreat

    The National Republican Congressional Committee did not share internal polling data that showed former President Donald Trump has weak numbers in key battleground districts at a retreat for House Republicans in April, two people familiar with the presentation told The Washington Post. The NRCC staffers reportedly held back the information even when a member of Congress asked them directly about Trump's support.

    The Post later obtained the full polling results and reports that Trump's unfavorable ratings were 15 points higher than his favorable ones, and nearly twice as many voters had a strongly unfavorable view of him than those who had a strongly favorable one. In those same districts, President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris were both more popular than Trump, the Post notes.

    It reportedly wasn't the first time this has happened — Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.) told colleagues that Republican campaign officials had also glossed over poor Trump polling during a retreat for ranking committee chairs in March, per the Post.

    Cheney, you may have heard in recent weeks, is determined to move the GOP away from Trump and she'd likely point to the polling as a reason why, but she's faced a lot of criticism from her colleagues, including House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.), who think the party is doomed without the former president leading the charge, and there's no indication their minds will change anytime soon. Read more about Cheney's efforts at The Washington Post.


    https://theweek.com/speedreads/98181...makers-retreat
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    The R voices of reason have not been stilled. Even in uber-tRumpish Texas --



    Texas Republican Slams GOP For Hating 'A Good Hunk Of America'

    A Texas Republican congressional candidate who lost a U.S. House runoff earlier this week after campaigning as a “Never Trumper” and getting only 3% of the vote, is now condemning the party’s current focus ― or lack thereof.

    Michael Wood ran in Texas’s 6th Congressional District for the seat previously occupied by Republican Rep. Ron Wright with a campaign critical of Donald Trump, even though he voted for the now former president.

    In the process, he attracted only 3% of the vote and lost to Wright’s widow, Susan Wright, who was endorsed by the former president. Wright died in February after contracting the coronavirus.

    On Wednesday, Wood told MSNBC’s Nicolle Wallace that the Republican Party has “lost its way” and has no real ideas or policies other than, of course, owning those gosh-darned libs.

    “I think that we are just a party of grievance right now,” Wood said. “I don’t know what we stand for. We stand for owning the libs. We don’t like baseball. We don’t like Coke. We don’t like NASCAR. We don’t like Hollywood. We don’t like academia. We don’t like anything. We’re just a grievance party that hates a good hunk of America and then we call ourselves patriots, and this is just a dead end.”

    Although some Republicans might find “lib owning” to be a bizarre form of self-care, Wood warned that’s not a longterm political philosophy.

    “We’re not going to win elections that way, and we’re not going to sort of put into place the sort of conservative reforms we want that way, and then at the fringes there’s a real risk of political violence, which keeps me up at night,” he said. “We saw that on Jan. 6, and I hate to say it, but it can get worse than that. And we have a lot of work ahead of us.”

    Wood isn’t sure how the party can come back from its current state.

    “I do think that those of us who think like I do, and I guess people like Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, I do think that there’s going to have to be some serious organizing, creating factions not just within Congress but also throughout the country, to sort of make it so that it’s not just sort of the nut jobs in the primaries that are the only paying point for politicians,” he said, though he noted that he’s not sure if the GOP can be salvaged.

    “You know, I don’t want us to have to lose for a decade before we sort of get that message,” he said, referencing the 12 years the Democrats were out of the White House before Bill Clinton’s election in 1992.


    You can see the complete exchange below.


    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/micha...b0ccb91c39d608
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Not fracturing. The MAGA core is just sloughing off bits and bobs that it has no use for.

    Maybe there’s a Karl Rove-like strategist buried in the heart of it but I don’t think so. I think this is all about revenge for Trump and embrace of the aggrieved victimhood described in earlier posts. I don’t think anyone is calculating how big the tent needs to be to win in 22 or 24. This is all about feelings, not strategy.

    MAGA will win a bunch of house seats and probably a majority in the Senate in 22. In 24 it comes down to whether Biden’s successor can beat Trump. The Democrats chose electability over their emotions in 20. May they do the same 3 years from now.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Not fracturing. The MAGA core is just sloughing off bits and bobs that it has no use for.

    Maybe there’s a Karl Rove-like strategist buried in the heart of it but I don’t think so. I think this is all about revenge for Trump and embrace of the aggrieved victimhood described in earlier posts. I don’t think anyone is calculating how big the tent needs to be to win in 22 or 24. This is all about feelings, not strategy.

    MAGA will win a bunch of house seats and probably a majority in the Senate in 22. In 24 it comes down to whether Biden’s successor can beat Trump. The Democrats chose electability over their emotions in 20. May they do the same 3 years from now.

    People keep saying stuff like this. How can it slough off bits that are still integrated... where there's been no break or rupture that allows that 'sloughing off'? (1a, b)

    I certainly see damage (2a)

    I see disorder (2b)

    Are not some of the R's saying the tRump wing is going beyond their (gag) limits? (2d)

    I'd even argue that it doesn't take much imagination to see a New Party - led by the saner R's - to 'fractionate' off from the R's (2c). I'm not predicting it at present, but I'm sure not ruling out the possibility.


    fracture
    verb

    fractured; fracturing\ ˈfrak-​chə-​riŋ

    Definition of fracture (Entry 2 of 2)

    transitive verb

    1a: to cause a crack or fracture in : BREAKfracture a rib
    b: RUPTURE, TEAR

    2a: to damage or destroy as if by rupturing
    b: to cause great disorder in
    c: to break up : FRACTIONATE
    d: to go beyond the limits of (something, such as a rule) : VIOLATEfractured many of the laws of probability …


    David G
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    People keep saying stuff like this. How can it slough off bits that are still integrated... where there's been no break or rupture that allows that 'sloughing off'? (1a, b)

    I certainly see damage (2a)

    I see disorder (2b)

    Are not some of the R's saying the tRump wing is going beyond their (gag) limits? (2d)

    I'd even argue that it doesn't take much imagination to see a New Party - led by the saner R's - to 'fractionate' off from the R's (2c). I'm not predicting it at present, but I'm sure not ruling out the possibility.


    fracture
    verb

    fractured; fracturing\ ˈfrak-​chə-​riŋ

    Definition of fracture (Entry 2 of 2)

    transitive verb

    1a: to cause a crack or fracture in : BREAKfracture a rib
    b: RUPTURE, TEAR

    2a: to damage or destroy as if by rupturing
    b: to cause great disorder in
    c: to break up : FRACTIONATE
    d: to go beyond the limits of (something, such as a rule) : VIOLATEfractured many of the laws of probability …


    It may be that Mr. Ross and I are picking nits, and that your choice of 'fracture' to convey your thought on the matter is wholly accurate.

    However, to my ear the word connotes a break into two or more components of comparable size.

    The Republican Party is not, in my opinion, 'fracturing'. Those who are leaving the Party seem to be wholly disaffected, and not party to any real political force.

    They are sloughing off, and sinking into oblivion.

    The fact that there are a few who say they oppose the Insano-Republicans they are a tiny minority, and it will be interesting to see whether or not they succeed in rallying what's left of that rabble and thus fracturing the House of Trump.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    It may be that Mr. Ross and I are picking nits, and that your choice of 'fracture' to convey your thought on the matter is wholly accurate.

    However, to my ear the word connotes a break into two or more components of comparable size.

    The Republican Party is not, in my opinion, 'fracturing'. Those who are leaving the Party seem to be wholly disaffected, and not party to any real political force.

    They are sloughing off, and sinking into oblivion.

    The fact that there are a few who say they oppose the Insano-Republicans they are a tiny minority, and it will be interesting to see whether or not they succeed in rallying what's left of that rabble and thus fracturing the House of Trump.
    It may be.
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    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing



    Pollster Frank Luntz says Trump's 'big lie' may cost Republicans the House in 2022

    Frank Luntz, a longtime pollster and political messaging consultant, issued a bold prediction in a recent podcast interview.

    "Okay, I haven't said this before," Luntz told New York Times columnist and Recode co-founder Kara Swisher on her podcast "Sway."

    "This could cost the Republicans the majority in the House in 2022," Luntz said. "What Donald Trump is saying is actually telling people it's not worth it to vote. Donald Trump single-handedly may cause people not to vote. And he may be the greatest tool in the Democrats' arsenal to keep control of the House and Senate in 2022."

    Although many pundits think the GOP has a great chance at regaining the House in 2022 after taking back 13 seats from Democrats in 2020, Luntz argued Trump's "big lie" that the 2020 election was stolen will suppress turnout among the base.


    https://www.businessinsider.com/fran...turnout-2021-5
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  34. #209
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    73,816

    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    More...


    Maryland governor: GOP is a "circular firing squad" in trying to appease "dear leader" Trump


    Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan (R) criticized his party leadership's loyalty to former President Trump on "Meet the Press" Sunday, saying the GOP has becoming a "circular firing squad."

    Why it matters: Hogan, a Trump critic, and said many Republicans are wary of criticizing the former president for fear of "retaliation" from Trump or the GOP, as House Conference Chair Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.) has experienced.


    • The debate over Trump's post-election hold on the GOP has gotten stronger since the Jan. 6 storming of the Capitol,

    What they're saying: “It bothers me you have to swear fealty to the dear leader or you get kicked out of the party. It just doesn’t make any sense,” Hogan said.


    • "It’s sort of a circular firing squad where we’re just attacking members of our own party instead of focusing on solving problems, or standing up and having an argument, that we can debate the Democrats on some of the things the Biden administration is pushing through.”


    https://www.axios.com/trump-gop-circ...ebaa9045b.html
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  35. #210
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    The Garden State
    Posts
    9,129

    Default Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

    I like Hogan, He is doing something right to be a Republican Governor in a Blue state, and I think he is 100% right.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

    -Dalai Lama

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