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Thread: Building the CoPogy 18

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Stitch and glue boats are sturdy and long lasting (mine is 23 years old and still going strong), but they require lots of patience dealing with the goop.
    I wish you peace as you move forward!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  2. #212
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Groundhog Day:
    I see what you did there

  3. #213
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    While waiting for the epoxy to set after each application of the tape, I am starting to work on the next steps of the build that are necessary before I can flip the hull back over and glass and paint the outside.

    First up is the centreboard and its case. I made a light ply template for the 5/8” steel core of the board and dropped it off at a local steel fabrication shop, one that has a plasma cutter. Should get it back in week or so. This will be a heavy board, which plays an important part in providing the stability of the boat under sail. The lift pennant will attach near the top, in order to keep it above the hull bottom, making it, in effect, a third-class lever. Given the probable weight of the finished board, I calculate the load on the lift pennant at 240-250 lbs. Clearly, I need some sort of lifting device.

    I had been pondering the best way to go about this when I suddenly remembered that I had been given a box of bronze bits a while back, and in it were some small bronze winches. I dug through the box and found a couple that might be suitable. One was anonymous – no makers name on it that I could find, and I was worried that it was a little too small: 3 ½” base, 3 ¾” height with the minimum diameter of the winch drum at 1 7/8” and it weighs about 3 lbs.

    The next one up has “South Coast” stamped or engraved on the top.

    I’d never heard of them before but a little net research revealed that they were made in Australia at one time but are no longer in production. How it made its way to the coast of British Columbia will forever be a mystery.

    This winch has a base dia of 4”, a height of 3 ¾”, a min drum dia of 2 ½” and weighs about 5 lbs.
    It rotated but not very well, so I took it apart to reveal this:

    The base has 6 holes for what looks like #12 screws, which is lots to solidly attach it. There was some dried grease, including around the pawls, but overall it looked to be in pretty good shape. It is simplicity itself: base, drum, top, retaining screw and 4 pawls. Not much wear to speak of except on the ends of the pawls, which you can see here:

    The pawls are all identical in size, which is handy for maintenance – no need to remember which pair goes where.

    A little work with solvent and scraper to remove the dried-on grease and clean things up generally, without removing the lovely patina, and this is what we have:


    I applied a little bit of light oil and temporarily reassembled everything. The winch spins freely with no play in anything. I will have to acquire some proper winch grease before using it, of course.

    With the accompanying bronze handle, the winch provides a mechanical advantage of a little over 7:1, which should be adequate.


    I think this winch will answer the purpose just fine. Now I just have to figure out the best way to mount it where it will do the job but not be too intrusive. As I install the CB case, I am sure the way will become clear.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
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  4. #214
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Nice find, Alex! I've seen a few of those South Coast winches, but didn't realize they were made in Oz.

  5. #215
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    That's nice, but not very suitable for a plate. Better would be a differential drum type with wire for the plate and rope to pull. Works one handed which the SC one doesn't.
    I would save it for sheets or a halyard.

  6. #216
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    That's nice, but not very suitable for a plate. Better would be a differential drum type with wire for the plate and rope to pull. Works one handed which the SC one doesn't.
    I would save it for sheets or a halyard.
    Aside from not being able to work it one-handed, why is it not suitable for a weighted centreboard? I'm not being argumentative. I genuinely would like to know if there is a show-stopper of some kind with using a winch like this.

    I don't see any reason not to use Dyneema or one of the similar high-strength, low-stretch lines for the pennant. Those will go more easily over the 180 degree internal turning block at the forward end of the case that the design calls for. No corrosion issues with synthetic fibres.

    It is not just a plate, by the way. The steel core will be laminated into the centre of wood layers to make up the thickness, then shaped to a foil cross-section and sheathed with glass.

    As for sheets or halyards, I don't think, given the sail sizes, that the loading of those on this boat will require winches.
    Last edited by AJZimm; 05-02-2021 at 01:27 PM. Reason: clarified comment about turning block
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  7. #217
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    I've never even handled Dyneema line but understand that it is very slippery stuff, so much so that many commonly used knots slip apart with it. Will it grip the winch head well enough?

  8. #218
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Our bare dyneema running backstays are spliced to dyneema-cored double braid before they get to the winch. Might be a solution depending on the length of the run. Or, you could use small diameter dyneema-cored double braid for the entire pennant.

  9. #219
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    I've never even handled Dyneema line but understand that it is very slippery stuff, so much so that many commonly used knots slip apart with it. Will it grip the winch head well enough?
    Good question. The lines I have been considering either have a coating that adds abrasion resistance and friction or come with a cover of polyester that accomplishes the same thing. I have checked out the Marlow and Samson catalogues so far, both brands carried by Trotac Marine here in Victoria.
    The stuff does get spliced, albeit with a longer splice than for a polyester line, so it's not entirely frictionless.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
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  10. #220
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lesser View Post
    Our bare dyneema running backstays are spliced to dyneema-cored double braid before they get to the winch. Might be a solution depending on the length of the run. Or, you could use small diameter dyneema-cored double braid for the entire pennant.
    Dave, thanks for that. I am not sure I have enough room to splice a piece of extra line on. As noted in the previous post, I was considering dyneema-cored double-braid line in any case. Sounds like that might be the best solution.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  11. #221
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Been snoozing over here...
    Apart from the friction issue, that winch is only designed to pull, letting out, or down in this case, is only by slipping the line round the barrel with tension to slow it and tied off on a cleat. Won't be long before it goes down with a bang as you have all the load on your hand, not the 7:1 advantage pulling up.
    The differential type allows one to lead the line aft and work one handed with better control. The tail can be a fatter polyester rope for grip.
    Over on one of the Cape Henry 21 threads there is a picture of a nice example. A friend had a four part tackle on his plate and the blocks were small, adding to the effort. replaced it with a differential and it was far better. Cleared some space too. If I was a bit closer, I would make another one as I do a bit of SS fabrication.
    A2

    Max F's example:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-thread/page16
    Last edited by Andrew2; 05-03-2021 at 12:25 AM.

  12. #222
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Alex I have a similar case to you in that my centreboard (120kg) is heavy and I came across these hand winches which have an inbuilt brake so when you stop winding the handle the line stops, both up and down. You have to crank in either direction, no tailing. Only problem I can see it will be on front end of centrecase about 15” inside companionway.
    Semi corrosion resistant, but they are pretty cheap so when it gets too rusty I’ll bin it. There’d have to be something similar where you are, I’ve seen them on those one man push around fork lift hoist thingo’s

    7F025D55-2674-40D5-9B5B-9E77A7932760.jpg

  13. #223
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Andrew and Andrew, thanks for the thoughts and the pointer to the hand winch. I've never had a problem with easing off a heavily-loaded genoa sheet winch on big boats, but, maybe time for a re-think.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  14. #224
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    I picked up the 5/8” steel core for my centreboard from the steel fabrication shop the other day. Actually, that’s not accurate. Someone else picked it up, literally. I had figured the thing would weigh somewhere between 120-130 lbs (59-59 kg) and when they phoned to tell me it was ready, I asked what it weighed, as they have an accurate program for their plasma cutter. He told me it was 124. 86 lbs, so I was close. I had a plan for getting it safely into the back of my hatchback car. I put down a thin piece of leftover scrap ply and figured that when they drove up with it on the forklift, we could just slide it off the forks onto the ply. The young guy driving the forklift drove up with the core and stopped short of the car. Just as I started to explain how I thought we could transfer it, he said “ I can manage it on my own” whereupon he proceeded to pick it up off the forks and walk over and plunk it down on the ply. I was very nearly speechless. I *might* have been able to do that when I was that young and working summer labour jobs through college, but certainly not now. I asked him “Isn’t that a little over the limit the Worker’s Compensation Board says that any one worker should lift?” but he said, “Nah, I do it all the time.” Well, so there it was.


    Next trick was to figure out how to get it out of the car and onto something that I could easily move around while I worked on it. I put some leftover casters onto a piece of ½” ply and eased the core down out of the car onto the ply where I could roll it around. It was only at that point I noticed that they had cut one of the holes in the wrong place. I needed two holes, one for the pivot pin and one for the lifting pennant shackle. I wanted them both cut oversize so that I could fill them with epoxy and re-drill the holes to fit the pins. I had marked the location of both holes on the plywood template I had given them. They got the big hole right but, for the smaller hole, while I had marked the centre and drawn a circle the right size in the right location, the explanatory note I penciled on didn’t have the arrow pointing to it extended all the way, like a proper engineering drawing. So they put the hole at the end of the arrowhead. My fault, I guess, since I should have been more careful with the marking, but I do think they could have taken a little more time to look at the template more carefully.


    On the plus side, the plasma cutter left a beautifully clean edge. There was an awful lot of rust and mill scale, more on one side than another. It had to come off. I attacked it with the angle grinder and a flap disk but that was pretty slow going. After some experimentation, I used an actual abrasive wheel to knock off the thickest scale and then followed up with the flap disks.

    It took a while but I eventually removed it. It may need some additional final cleanup before I start laminating the plywood onto it.

    Re-drilling the lift pennant hole was next. I went out and bought an outrageously expensive ¾” twist drill and some cutting fluid. I didn’t want to trust to a hand drill to try to get through this, and besides, my biggest hand drill only has a 3/8” chuck. No way I was going to hoist that slab of steel up to the drill press on the bench, so I dismounted the press, set it on the garage floor and made timber blocking to lift the steel up to the press, only about a foot now. With everything shimmed flat and level, I started at 1/8”:


    And worked up through 7 steps to ¾”. I was worried about the last step, which was from ½” to ¾”, but I didn’t have any bits in between. However, taking it slow and using lots of cutting fluid, success!


    I must say that the expensive cutting fluid looks suspiciously like automotive motor oil, but it did the job. Lot of nice twists and chips produced, with no burning of steel or chips.

    Next up is cleaning up the holes and filling them with epoxy.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  15. #225
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Manoeuvring these heavy bits is even more fun than crazy clamping. Hope your back is ok. I got the belt sander onto my steel plate and found it did a great job surprisingly. Looking fwd to see how it turns out.
    Just remembered - I got some Acetal round bar to epoxy into the holes of my board - makes a great bearing material and is hard enough to not elongate, but epoxy should be good too, can you get a “hard filler” powder for your epoxy. Maybe graphite like what’s available from West.?
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 05-08-2021 at 05:39 PM.

  16. #226
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    Manoeuvring these heavy bits is even more fun than crazy clamping. Hope your back is ok. I got the belt sander onto my steel plate and found it did a great job surprisingly. Looking fwd to see how it turns out.
    Just remembered - I got some Acetal round bar to epoxy into the holes of my board - makes a great bearing material and is hard enough to not elongate, but epoxy should be good too, can you get a “hard filler” powder for your epoxy. Maybe graphite like what’s available from West.?
    Back is fine. Hoicking around just one half of the steel at a time is not too bad.

    Hadn't thought of the belt sander. Might have a go at the board with it for final clean-up.

    For the holes, I'm planning to use MetlWeld by System Three, a metal-filled pre-mixed epoxy that is formulated especially to stick to metal and somewhat harder than plain or filled epoxy. The pivot pin will be 3/4 bronze rod, so lots of bearing area and should still be slippery enough.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
    - Geoffrey Holdsworth

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  17. #227
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    So much fun drilling those big holes! Be cautious using your belt sander on the steel. Not that you'll damage it at all but the sander will accumulate steel chips and dust in all manner of nooks and crannies. You can vacuum and blow most of it out except for those last few bits that will find their way onto your expensive wood trim that will eventually get wet. Steel + water = rust.

    The angle grinder will work just fine.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Hadn’t thought (pretty normal behaviour) about the effects on my woodwork. Prob explains the freckles on that chair but damn my centreboard is smooth.
    I’ll go blow it out with compressor, thanks Jeff. Nah, it was three years ago and sanded plenty of wood in meantime, just joking about freckles. My methods don’t come with any sort of guarantee. Haha
    That Metlweld sounds the go , pity we don’t have S3 down here
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 05-08-2021 at 09:46 PM.

  19. #229
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Glad to see things worked out.
    Moving heavy stuff is fun. My wife and I just wrangled a 220 lb. bathroom vanity into the house. Loads of fun!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  20. #230
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Neat work, my local supplier had graphite, so I used that for the pivot hole liners. Prob would have used a Starratt hole cutter for the pennant hole relocation. Bit cheaper than big twist drills.

    Bit late now, but I would have put a dam round the edge of that bit of ply, made a bath with plastic sheet and 'bathed' the plate in dilute hydrochlic acid to get the rust/scale off, leaves an etched surface which would help with primer or gluing the outer skin. Acid in local s/market here for pennies a litre, dilute it at 5:1.
    Last edited by Andrew2; 05-09-2021 at 01:37 AM.

  21. #231
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    So much fun drilling those big holes! Be cautious using your belt sander on the steel. Not that you'll damage it at all but the sander will accumulate steel chips and dust in all manner of nooks and crannies. You can vacuum and blow most of it out except for those last few bits that will find their way onto your expensive wood trim that will eventually get wet. Steel + water = rust.

    The angle grinder will work just fine.

    Jeff
    Good point Jeff, although I actually slid the steel outside on its dolly to work on it with the angle grinder on the driveway, so the dust from the grinding happened there, not in the shop.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
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  22. #232
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Glad to see things worked out.
    Moving heavy stuff is fun. My wife and I just wrangled a 220 lb. bathroom vanity into the house. Loads of fun!
    We also have renovation of a guest bathroom pending, but I'm hiring someone else to do it. I figure that while I am capable of doing house renos, and have done lots in the past, I have a choice of where to spend my time. I can pay someone a reasonable rate to do the reno, because there are dozens of people that specialize in that. However, in the 21st century when nearly everything is available in the millions, produced cheaply and with great precision in factories overseas, getting a unique small boat is more difficult and more expensive, so that is where I would rather spend my time.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
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  23. #233
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    Bit late now, but I would have put a dam round the edge of that bit of ply, made a bath with plastic sheet and 'bathed' the plate in dilute hydrochlic acid to get the rust/scale off, leaves an etched surface which would help with primer or gluing the outer skin. Acid in local s/market here for pennies a litre, dilute it at 5:1.
    I might still treat the steel just before gluing the outer plies on. Hydrochloric acid is widely available here in any builder's supply in the form of muriatic acid. Considering just using vinegar instead. Weaker acetic acid but not so toxic. Would need to pickle longer but should also work.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
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  24. #234
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Wow! That chunk of steel really drives home that you're in a different league on this one, Alex!

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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by dsimonson View Post
    Wow! That chunk of steel really drives home that you're in a different league on this one, Alex!
    Yup. Add a foot in beam, add a lot more freeboard and a cabin, add more sail area and I'm at about 2 1/2 times the displacement of Fire-Drake. Different sort of boat altogether. Mini motersailer really.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
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  26. #236
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    The steel-cored centreboard is sitting awaiting further work while I build the centreboard case and outboard motor well.

    Here is a shot of the first hole cut in the hull, and a very traumatic moment it was, too. However, it turned out OK.


    And here are the side pieces for the OB well, dry fit but not yet glued in.


    And before you ask, no the motor will not be used for steering and yes, I do plan on installing some kind of anti-turbulence plate that will swing down and block the rest of the hole behind the motor leg. Design yet to be figured out.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
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  27. #237
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Looks great Alex! Any chance you could mount the cutout on another plate hinged on the forward edge or one side that could drop down and latch into place?

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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    Looks great Alex! Any chance you could mount the cutout on another plate hinged on the forward edge or one side that could drop down and latch into place?
    Hugh, my thinking at the moment is a plate hinged at the bottom of the transom (seen at the top of the pictures above) and latched down into place, possibly with barrel bolts. There may be obstructions on the leg of the outboard that would prevent that. I won't know until I get around to hanging it and taking final measurements. I may have to hinge two pieces from the sides, or perhaps even just have a plate that pulls out altogether.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
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  29. #239
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Alex, it may be possible to attach a filler plate to the outboard. Then it would engage automatically when the outboard is dropped in. I don't know how one might attach such a thing to the motor.... Plenty of duct tape?

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    Alex, it may be possible to attach a filler plate to the outboard. Then it would engage automatically when the outboard is dropped in. I don't know how one might attach such a thing to the motor.... Plenty of duct tape?

    Jeff
    Thanks for idea, Jeff. That was one I hadn't considered. I'll add that to the list of possibilities when I get there.
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
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  31. #241
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    One we used was fitting a prop to the filler plate, hinged fore and aft. It gives something to place it without leaning down the hole and the prop housed in a little block on the transom with a twist clamp, holding the plate in place;
    A2

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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    One we used was fitting a prop to the filler plate, hinged fore and aft. It gives something to place it without leaning down the hole and the prop housed in a little block on the transom with a twist clamp, holding the plate in place;
    A2
    I had a hazy idea of doing something like that but hadn't thought through the details. Do you happen to have a picture?
    Alex

    “A man in an open shirt, sat gazing out to sea; A young man, a hale man, and I wished that I were he and that the things that I loved were as they used to be”
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    I had a hazy idea of doing something like that but hadn't thought through the details. Do you happen to have a picture?
    Nope, but I will do a sketch and try and put it up.

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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    I'll be interested to see what you do, Alex.

    Ian
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    Default Re: Building the CoPogy 18

    I hinged a plywood rectangular plate at the bottom of the aft bulkhead. It had barrel bolt sockets at 3 locations, one for making it flush with the bottom when the outboard was pulled, another part way down where it deflected the turbulence back down where it belongs when under power and the third straight up for using the well as a head. Don't forget in your haste to tilt it up.

    My only complaint about that system was that the barrel bolts rattled in the sockets. I solved that by placing a brick on it. A six pack would have done the job and kept the beer cold 'cept I'm not much of a drinker.

    Actually there was one other complaint. The well was aft in a dory. There being very little beam there it was very tippy when lifting out the outboard. That won't be a problem for you.
    Last edited by Gib Etheridge; 05-24-2021 at 07:55 PM.

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