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Thread: An Ilur in NZ

  1. #36
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Wayne, it would be wonderful if you would join us on some of our cruises, you can keep in touch with the local dinghy cruising scene here
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghycruisingNZ/

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    I have been here and working away but had neglected posting until I had something that looked like progress.

    The keel was cut from my very large sapele plank and trimmed down to the required thickness with a bit of difficulty on the table saw.
    It's the largest piece of timber on the boat so I'm increasingly optimistic I can get away without a thicknesser with some chicanery.
    Here's a test fit.

    IMG-1899.jpg

    IMG-1900.jpg

    A hand plane put the bevel on. It needed plenty of sharpening and generated a bit of jumping and chattering in parts where grains met and until I got my line in but it was all destined to be covered so not a huge drama.

    IMG-1909.jpg

    The centreboard slot was trimmed up with a flush trim router bit.

    Gardboard strakes were next. They were coaxed into curves over a day or two of gradual tightening of clamps with a warm wet towel over the bend to help.
    Exact positioning took some time to work out. I think my stem bevel was a little off on the lower portion of the garboard section but nothing that a little epoxy filling won't fix. Pic below is after the fact with plank 2 getting some pre-bending.

    IMG-1932.jpg


    Despite Francios Vivier warning of the potential for flat spots in the long spaces between bulkheads alongside the centreboard case, and me having read David Ladd's posts on similar lines, I didn't check the first (starboard) garboard after clamping.

    The result was indeed a flat spot. you can just see it here where it's clearly not following a fair line.
    IMG-1934.jpg

  3. #38
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    That flat spot can be pushed up into a slightly more fair line with clamps but lesson learned here and a batten was screwed on the port garboard across this section to hold it into a nicer curve as the epoxy set. It was well worth the small effort.

    Here is the not-so-flash garboard below after the land has been planed in and with plank two laid on temporarily. Note the gap between the two (to the right of the rough cut centreboard slot). There's probably about 6-8mm between the two in that section. A batten, as advised by Clint Chase in David's thread, should get it close and the gap filled.

    unfair.jpg

    The simple act of planing that land on the garboard (no gains as yet) and seeing the planks sit together was the moment where the mystery of lapstrake building started to make sense and I could see the theory unfolding into reality.

    Vivier's instructions advise a nominal overlap of 22mm on planks, ranging from 10-30mm in extremis and after marking it on the garboard strake, it measured an exact 22mm across most of the length. I know it's simple math and measuring from the designer but it's very reassuring for a first-time builder.
    I've got a couple of days off so am hoping to cut some first gains and get at least one plank fitted.


    Most of the Ilur building is done in the attached garage over weekends and the odd quick and simple bit in the morning before work.

    During most of the week Ilur is wheeled into storage in my lean-to built off the side of the garage.
    There's just enough room to shimmy down the side of it and I've done a few jobs like some of the keel planing while in this space.


    IMG-1871.jpg

    IMG-1876.jpg

    Note the difference in size to my previous canoe and kayak builds completed in there:
    unnamed.jpg
    A little less room to move now compared to then with a fatter Ilur.

    Building the ilur kit with its provided strongback (on castor wheels) was a factor in my boat decision to allow for it to be moved like this without the risk of twisting or otherwise distorting a building jig. The strongback legs are seperate from the building frame so there's little chance of this happening. The ply legs have been reinforced with stronger timbers and coach bolts to beef them up.
    Last edited by WayneT; 09-10-2020 at 03:48 AM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Does Vivier suggest any ways to avoid the flat spots. I’m a bit puzzled about the warning. I would have thought some temporary frames would be specified.
    caught between your posts, but happy to see you’ve recovered.
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 09-10-2020 at 03:34 AM.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Wayne, it would be wonderful if you would join us on some of our cruises, you can keep in touch with the local dinghy cruising scene here
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghycruisingNZ/

    John Welsford
    Thanks John, I'm a member on there and would look forward to that. The Tarawera cruises etc look like fun and relatively close by.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    Does Vivier suggest any ways to avoid the flat spots. I’m a bit puzzled about the warning. I would have thought some temporary frames would be specified.
    caught between your posts, but happy to see you’ve recovered.
    Andrew, It's operator error on my part. Vivier suggests a batten screwed to the outside edge of the garboard to fair it and I just glossed over it in a rush.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    I ordered the files directly from the designer and have had the sheets cut by a local furniture-maker with a CNC machine.” I am impressed, very resourceful!
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Hi Wayne. I read about the batten but I thought he was talking about tap batten over the lap joint. I was able to take out a little of the flat by soaking the flat with boiling water over a towel and the putting a little pressure with a button jack from underneath. When I look at that lap joint now with all the planks on I don't see any problem.
    i made a mistake with the gains by not making them long enough. I had read from another Ilur builder to make the transom gain 9” and the stem gain 12”. These are definitely to short. Consider looking at the gain going from the transom to mold 1 and the stem gain going back almost to the bulkhead 9. I would also be careful about beveling the forward half of bulkhead 9. If the forward edge of bulkhead 9 sticks out bevel it off. If the forward edge is equal to the plank I would leave the bulkhead alone. It means filling the back side of the bulkhead with lots of epoxy or with a shim. I made a custom fit shim for each bulkhead 9 back side but it doesn’t have to be perfect. Just something to take up some space.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Quote Originally Posted by davidladd View Post
    Hi Wayne. I read about the batten but I thought he was talking about tap batten over the lap joint. I was able to take out a little of the flat by soaking the flat with boiling water over a towel and the putting a little pressure with a button jack from underneath. When I look at that lap joint now with all the planks on I don't see any problem.
    i made a mistake with the gains by not making them long enough. I had read from another Ilur builder to make the transom gain 9” and the stem gain 12”. These are definitely to short. Consider looking at the gain going from the transom to mold 1 and the stem gain going back almost to the bulkhead 9. I would also be careful about beveling the forward half of bulkhead 9. If the forward edge of bulkhead 9 sticks out bevel it off. If the forward edge is equal to the plank I would leave the bulkhead alone. It means filling the back side of the bulkhead with lots of epoxy or with a shim. I made a custom fit shim for each bulkhead 9 back side but it doesn’t have to be perfect. Just something to take up some space.
    Thanks David.
    I cut gains in the port no2 plank before work this morning and had coinsidentally lengthened them slightly to about the points you've recommended here. It made a world of difference in the ease of lay for the plank. The starboard one previously installed had to be wrestled a bit with the shorter gains but the port seemed much easier at first fitting.
    There's still not a huge difference in symmetry between the lap gains on the two sides and a little sand should make them match.
    I've also noticed the bulkhead 9 issue. I bevelled half of the starboard no2 edge and it left a gap that needed shimming so have left the port as is during testing. I doubt it will need much, if any bevel at all.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    I've got both plank 2s on now and am getting happier with the gains and run of the planks with each one.
    As such I got a little cocky and mixed up too much epoxy in order to prime the planed ply (say that three times fast) and then add filler/adhesive powder with one batch, instead of the usual two.
    It was a near run thing to get it smoothed before the epoxy went off but major drama averted.

    A sample of the stern gains.
    stern.jpg

    I've also planed off the keel and cut the holes for the skeg tenons to fit in and done a dy fit.

    skeg.jpg

    The rear tenon sits flush to the bottom of the mortice but the middle and forward ones are slightly up, about 5mm at the forward most slot.
    If I plane down any further on the garboards to get it sitting more snuggly it'll result in a pronounced flat spot either side of the skeg instead of the plank running up to the skeg. There's already a little flatness either side toward the rear but I'm not worried at that end as a decent epoxy fillet awaits to cover this.
    The keel line of the skeg seems to follow a nice smooth line already so I'm thinking a wooden packer in the mortice to ensure contact will suffice. Thoughts welcome.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Hi Wayne, just wondering, did you fit the skeg to the keel before installing the garboard planks? I don’t remember any problems with the skeg fit except with getting the mortises in the keel filed down to fit the skeg. The middle mortise was 90 degrees down but the fore and aft mortises where on a angle. It took a bit of filing to get the skeg to sit all the way down, but no extra filing on the garboard planks themselves except in the mortise notches. If your skeg is high on the forward end it could be a issue when you fit the false keel.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Quote Originally Posted by davidladd View Post
    Hi Wayne, just wondering, did you fit the skeg to the keel before installing the garboard planks? I don’t remember any problems with the skeg fit except with getting the mortises in the keel filed down to fit the skeg. The middle mortise was 90 degrees down but the fore and aft mortises where on a angle. It took a bit of filing to get the skeg to sit all the way down, but no extra filing on the garboard planks themselves except in the mortise notches. If your skeg is high on the forward end it could be a issue when you fit the false keel.
    I did a test fit and it seemed ok. I’ve had another look in natural light and a couple of higher spots were more obvious than when working under poor garage lighting initially.
    After a little more selective planing I’ve got a much better fit into the mortises across the length of the skeg.
    like most things, leaving it overnight and having a look the next day is a good solution.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Try putting some chalk on mortises to see if they touch anywhere

  14. #49
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Four planks are on each side and the skeg about to be fitted. Pics to come.

    Any opinions on using ash for the bilge keels?
    I've got some laying about from my canoe build and would be keen to save sapele for the keel and gunwales.
    Ash seems fairly hard but I've heard mixed reviews of it's water resistance.
    Considering the boat will live on a trailer and the bilge keels will be epoxy-coated, painted and have brass rubbing strips is rot resistance a bit of a non-issue here?

  15. #50
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Your build looks great Wayne - nice to see another clinker plywood hull being built. And yes the whole clinker thing with gains, laps & rolling bevels all makes much more sense when you start laying on planks 2 & 3. You might want to consider buying a spokeshave if you don't have one yet especially when you're trimming timber which reverses the grain on you - a spoke shave is very easy to reverse so that you can push instead of pull. Suggest a hardwood timber for the bilge runners - I use spotted gum because it bends/twists and is tough, not sure if you have SG in NZ or not.........................
    Keep going with the photos please.
    Regards Neil

  16. #51
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Hi Wayne, I have no experience with wood boat materials, but Clint Chase provided Ash for my bilge keels and false stem. It sounds like a local hard wood might be good too.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    I make those sort of parts out of kwila (merbau) decking planks.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  18. #53
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Thanks for the tips. I'll check out some Kwila for the bilge keels Ian. I should have thought of that as I made some cupboard doors for an outdoor BBQ area from kwila decking a few years back and found it pretty rugged stuff.

    Some family business and work has slowed building just as the days are lengthing.
    But... the skeg is afixed and once the keels are on I'll fair it in on the garboards and fill some screw holes and generally tidy up the top before it becomes harder to reach when more planks go on.

    IMG-1984.jpg

    IMG-1992.jpg

    IMG-1993.jpg

    IMG-1994.jpg

    A minor goal is to finish the hull and begin sealing and painting by the end of the year, and maybe get on the water for next (southern hemisphere) summer but not at the risk of rushing and making mistakes.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Hi Ken,
    Just a note of caution - when you trim back the planks at the bow it can be a good idea not to trim them right back to the base stem till you have all the planks on - we need to be sure that the outer stem (I assume you have made this) will neatly cover all of the plank ends and fair nicely into the planks. For my sake I tend to leave about 3mm at the end of each plank until I fit the outer stem. But that's just the way I tend to work now after I found I had a gap on the 1st boat I built because I'd been too energetic with trimming the planks back (the angles are not simple either) - thanks goodness for Wests fairing powder :-) Also, when you fit the outer keelson it is worth fairing/rounding its edges before gluing to the the hull - fairing timber which is the middle of the hull after the glue has set tends to be tricky - at least for us with mature bones.
    Regards Neil

  20. #55
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Good tip on the keel fairing. I'm already having to stretch a little as the building jig is slightly higher since it's on castor wheels.
    It's hard to tell in the frot-on pics but the planks are not trimmed flush on the stem. There's some wiggle room left there for fitting. The false stem has also been laminated.

    Wayne

  21. #56
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    The bilge keels have been cut and installed.

    I found a very hard wood from the ancestral timber stash cleared out of my long dead grandfather's shed many years ago that I suspect is northern rata.
    Rata is a NZ native timber that grows parasitically on other trees until well established and is a very dense timber. A few things I've read suggest the other, southern species (colder clime), produces timber second only to lignum vitae for harness.

    It's heavy and the batten being just the right size to produce two shaped runners like this seems like it was intended for this purpose.
    The shaping was an enjoyable morning's mini project.

    IMG-2013.jpg

    They were faired in with a fillet.
    IMG-2012.jpg

    The side floors are also installed.

    IMG-2014.jpg


    A stick pushing up from underneath helped keep it all in the right place while things set.

    IMG-2015.jpg

    Given this area will be very difficult to access after planks 5-6 are on I'll give it a few coats of epoxy and also the inside of the planks.

    It's also begging for painting, which I'm trying to get my head around at the moment.
    One pot/ two pot?? Which primer and topcoat??

    These are the two main systems that are readily available here.
    https://altexboatpaint.com/frontend/index.cfm
    https://www.international-yachtpaint...paint-products

    Suggestions welcome on what to use here.
    At present I'm thinking west system epoxy folled by altex multipurpose primer and altex regatta enamel coat.
    Happy to be convinced otherwise.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Looking good, Wayne. You might like to round off the ends of the bilge runners a bit more. You're lucky to have some good hard timber.
    I have used Altex paints on my four boats so far, with no problems. As advised by the local rep. I used two coats of the grey multi primer below the waterline followed by two or three coats of regatta enamel or anti-fouling. Above the waterline, I used one coat of the primer and one coat of the white undercoat-surfacer, sanded as much or as little as you like, followed by the enamel, two or three coats. All this is over WEST epoxy on plywood, two coats on the same day, and sanded smooth with a random orbital sander. For a hidden area like yours, I would just use three coats of epoxy and leave it at that. If you're well organised, you can do three coats of epoxy on the same day. Then you don't have to sand it or wash the blush off between coats. I have not used two-pot paints at all.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    "Kotik,Kotik,Kotik!"
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  23. #58
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Thanks Ian. That’s really helpful.
    that’s the direction I was starting to head on primer and paint so that’s reassuring. There’s two coats of epoxy on those sections and will likely do a third to be sure.
    I’ve now realised there was no reason to install those floor sections now as they would still go in fine after the hull is planked and flipped.
    I think I got the idea of installing now from seeing a pic of them temporarily in place in another build thread and also the diagram in the instructions showing all hull components together, which set the thought in my head it had to be done before complete planking.
    Oh well, it’ll just be a job done a little earlier even if it’ll make for a little more awkward clamping on the next couple of planks. It’s the flattest spot on the hull so it shouldn’t be a drama.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Hi Wayne,
    I'm not familiar with the Vivier designs but perhaps worth noting that floors usually have limber holes cut in them before installation as cutting limbers afterwards is very difficult considering the internal curve of the hull. I suspect that what you have glued in are not floors which sit right down in the bilges - hope so :-)
    Your boat is coming along nicely - you might want to think about installing the outer keelson before accessing the centre of the hull gets too tricky..........

    Good Luck Neil

  25. #60
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Thanks Neil. No holes needed in these ones, they are panels sloping from the hull to the outside edge of the floorboards over the bilges. Any water will run from them to the gaps between boards and into the bilges.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Hi Wayne , just a plug here for Penetrol . It’s an additive which is generally available in hardware shops and it’s used at about 10 -15% ( I just splash a little in my decanted paint and try it )
    It helps the paint flow off the brush surprisingly well and I think it helps the finish level out too. When you get the amount right it’s amazing.
    I don’t know if it’s suitable for 2pack paints.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Progress update -
    The planking is now finished and I'm fairly happy with the result. With a week off work I put some effort in to getting it done and reached a maximum tempo of two planks on in one day. That's not something I'd want to keep up for any long period.

    Here's a shot of the starboard side fully done, before the final plank went on.

    IMG-2145.jpg

    And the front end with celebratory whisky for the final plank.

    IMG-2153.jpg

    I haven't had a chance to pull her out of the garage for a full length shot but the hull's looking fine, aside from the usual blemishes to fill.

    The keel was cut a while back and has been test fitted with screws etc.
    It's one piece of sapele and was starting to get a little bit of a twist in the month since it was cut down to size so has been screwed on the hull for a week now to keep it straightish. It should be glued in the next few days.

    It's been nice to move away from planking. The stem has been shaped over a couple of mornings before work.
    This involved some spokeshave work to taper it to the leading edge and take a little off the inside face down at planks 3-1 to get a fairly flush fit.

    IMG-2158.jpg

    IMG-2160.jpg
    That's not a wiggly stem on the above pic, but the bulge of the hull side peeking out beyond the stem on the left. The outer stem is a little shoter than the inside one to make use of a shorter piece of sapele. THis won;t matter as they'll be cut shorter to cater for the lug sloop's bow sprit arrangement.

    Epoxy awaits. Keel bands have been ordered and I'm casting about for a suitable bow eye.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Way to go Wayne! It does feel good to get that last plank on. You are catching up to me and will no doubt move past me. I am ready for primer, but the temps are so low now that I’m not sure I can get the temp high enough even with the 4 heaters I have under my tarp enclosure.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    And the race is on! Isn't that a line from an old Grateful Dead song?

    Anyway, you guys are both doing great! It's so cool to be in touch with people all over the globe through this forum. Congrats on this milestone, Wayne. Soon you'll have to have a turning over party.

    Keep up the good work, fellas!

    Mike

  30. #65
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Thanks chaps,
    I don't know about overtaking you David.
    You are still a mast ahead of me and I can't get on to that until the boat is off the building form and it becomes 'bench space' again. I'm imagining by the time I'm ready for primer it'll be getting a little too hot to paint comfortably but I wouldn't complain.

    I've also found a piece of timber from my dealer that should be suitable for 2xrowing and a sculling oars and I'm hoping some kayak and canoe paddle experience will help there. I love using a spokeshave.

    The old bloke I got it from is an older woodworker/portable sawmiller/ exotic wood importer based out in the sticks.
    It's my third visit to him and interactions have gone from gruff answers and frowns at the newbie's questions to now an invitation into the hallowed workshop to offer an opinion on benchtops he's making and suggestions of other timbers etc. Quite the character.

    Michael, did you put a bow eye on your boat?

  31. #66
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Very nicely done! Looks great, and isn't it enticing to see the flip? I'm at that point too, and only waiting because of lock-down restrictions. But soon...I'll be following along!

    Ken
    When the desire to learn is greater than the desire to win, the journey becomes the prize.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    Congrats Wayne. Feels good to be over planking doesn’t it? Now you’ve got all the fiddly bits

  33. #68
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    No bow-eye on mine. I stuck with Vivier's suggested hole through the outer stem. I did have visions of the whole thing tearing out, but this seems unlikely, especially with the keel band there as reinforcement. I just have a piece of 1/4" line through the hole with a bowline in it for my trailer strap's hook. Not very elegant but serviceable.

    You can just see it above the waterline here...

    stbd tack.jpg

    I did do the " internal bow-eye" if you will for the tack down-haul. I bought a S.S. eye-screw with a shoulder on it below the eye. I installed that before adding the outer stem.

    Mike

  34. #69
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    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    There's been a bit of work completed over the festive/ New Year period.

    The centreboard to keel joint has been filled and reinforced with glass cloth and a coating of carbon impregnated epoxy.
    IMG-2180.jpg
    IMG-2182.jpg


    The hull has been epoxy coated and sanded. The top strake will be bright and was given a mahogony stain to tie it a little more closely in colour to the sapele transom top and even out the quite different tones of the two halves of okume ply. I'm quite pleased with the colour and the resulting two joint lines from the laminated patch I inset to cover the puzzle joint. This pic has helpfully come in upside down to show how it'll look when righted...

    IMG-2213.jpg

    I did go for the 'hole in the stem with soft shackle' over a bow eye, partially due to the difficulty of find one I liked, nerves over drilling through the stem into the hull and also because I'm imagining a soft shackle might be useful as a grab point for a little manhandling of the boat on a beach etc.

    After epoxy coating the stem a friend remarked on the lovely colour and what a shame it would be to paint it. Yes, the smart thing to do for maintenance is paint, but I had to agree and so it'll be finished bright with varnish down to just around the curve of the keel. My kayak and canoe have not been especially practical by being nicely decorated and heavily varnished so why not continue with a boat.

    IMG-2222.jpg

    There was a little filler between the false stem and the strakes that need some further scraping and sanding to remove but the joint came out fairly smooth with more timber revealed.

    Post coating and sanding and masked ready for paint.

    IMG-2296.jpg

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Hamilton, New Zealand
    Posts
    95

    Default Re: An Ilur in NZ

    The primer going on...
    IMG-2297.jpg

    IMG-2298.jpg

    IMG-2299.jpg

    I've done two coats of that and sanded. I'm using a one pot system from Altex, mainly because of the colour choices available and am hoping to get her coated in the next couple of weeks. They do an additive that can be included in the top coats which supposedly turns it into something like a two-pot system with increased flow, gloss and durability. I'll try that.

    I also bent up and drilled and epoxy filled holes for mounting the brass rubbing strips before priming. That was a couple of days' work and (another half to replace one I broke) but quite satisfying.

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