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Thread: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

  1. #596
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    On that note, my steel guy can't do the push/pull pit work.
    He ordered the die, got the wrong one and its a 4 month wait for the re-order.

    Seems there's nobody on the South Coast who can do the work....
    Might have to go up to Sydney, hopefully Taren Point which isn't too far away - but they really need to be fabricated on site....

    Sheeet
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  2. #597
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    On that note, my steel guy can't do the push/pull pit work.
    He ordered the die, got the wrong one and its a 4 month wait for the re-order.

    Seems there's nobody on the South Coast who can do the work....
    Might have to go up to Sydney, hopefully Taren Point which isn't too far away - but they really need to be fabricated on site....

    Sheeet
    If they can’t get on site another (far less ideal) option is to make up MDF templates of the shape of the deck for the size of the push/pullpits and mock up the angles of the hull in relation to the deck wherever there’ll be an upright and at the bow and stern - so that the fabrication follows the lines and shape of the hull ....... if that makes sense.

    It’s definitely not ideal but we’ve made it work in the past rather than have to travel a long way to and from a boat.

    Otherwise leave it for now and take the boat up to a yard in Sydney or Wollongong or somewhere when you are done and where they can do it on site..... that’s what I’m planning with the H28 rather than get them down while I’m in the shed (though for me it’s just down the hill.....)
    Larks

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  3. #598
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Yeah i was thinking templates.

    The stern is pretty much flat - with the footings clear, its almost a 90° build straight up from the lines of the sheer. I have the sides of the pushpit, the aftermost tubes were entirely ripped off.

    IMG_6581.jpg

    The pull-pit exists complete, just bent. The angle at the deck is something that would have to be done on site - welding the feet/tabs to the uprights.

    If they have most of the tubes bent, then tack them together on site - bring it back to their workshop to finish.... Could work.

    Contacted Viking Marine in Taren Point, see if they have an idea.
    Last edited by gypsie; 03-04-2021 at 08:05 PM.
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  4. #599
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Yeah i was thinking templates.

    The stern is pretty much flat - with the footings clear, its almost a 90° build straight up from the lines of the sheer. I have the sides of the pushpit, the aftermost tubes were entirely ripped off.
    The pull-pit exists complete, just bent. The angle at the deck is something that would have to be done on site - welding the feet/tabs to the uprights.

    If they have most of the tubes bent, then tack them together on site - bring it back to their workshop to finish.... Could work.
    Trouble is that they’ll charge you travel time at trade rates. If you can possibly find a fabby’ on the waterfront where you can dock your boat once you relaunch you’d save a lot of money and dicking around. It’ll also mean that you can step back and look at the shape in proportion to the angles of the topsides, transom and bow while they’re tacking it up to make sure it "looks" right.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  5. #600
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Trouble is that they’ll charge you travel time at trade rates. If you can possibly find a fabby’ on the waterfront where you can dock your boat once you relaunch you’d save a lot of money and dicking around. It’ll also mean that you can step back and look at the shape in proportion to the angles of the topsides, transom and bow while they’re tacking it up to make sure it "looks" right.
    True nuff.
    Nearest waterfront shipwrights i know of are in Sydney Harbour. They are busy busy, I think they'd drop my little job like a ton of bricks, but worth investigating.
    See what these guys in Taren Point can do.
    There's the fishermans Co-op in Ulladulla, but not much yacht work done there.

    Worst case is a 4 months wait for the die to come in - then maybe another couple of weeks for fabrication. That'll be a July relaunch - in time for whales.

    A die a die, my kingdom for a die.
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  6. #601
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    You can have the die turned by your local machinist on a lathe if really necessary. For templates use a few meters of rebar, some flat bar pieces and a stick welder, then carry the whole thing to a local shop specializing in architectural railings and ask them to replicate in 316L. Probably cheaper then "marine" welders also.

  7. #602
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Just got a note from my man, it seems that's just what he's going to do. The machining that is.

    Mocking up could work. I've done a bit of MIG and TIG - i'm not expert, especially with TIG. I have a stick welder and I've destroyed some lovely work with it.........
    Rebar could be worth a practise with.
    I'll see what the dude can do. I think my job was going to pay for the new kit, maybe, and i do want to support this kind of service in the area - clearly there's a gap in the market - though the market may be tiny, hence the gap.
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  8. #603
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Gave the portside a coat of primer. then went round the whole boat and filled any pock marks.
    Starboard side, which is in shade all day have very few marks, port side, blasted by the sun and uncomfortable to work on was much badder....

    IMG_7983.jpg

    Nice light to catch the new transom toerail etc.. assembly.

    IMG_7984.jpg

    Port side with a bit of filler.

    IMG_7985.jpg

    Notice below the waterline there's the imprint of the planking showing through.
    I wonder when i apply a gloss finish will that be the case above the WL as well. There is some wavey-ness across the surface over long arch's - local spots are well gone. I think a high gloss smooth finish might show up waves - TBC
    (Wavey-ness...... barely perceptible if you pay attention).

    IMG_7986.jpg

    Whole boat

    IMG_7987.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  9. #604
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Some small details;
    got on with varnishing topsides brightwork. First coat on. The previous owner used polyurethane varnish and its slowly coming away over the years as i scare and sand. Its not pretty, the PU paint makes it look a little splodgey - doesn't touch up well at all.

    no pics yet.

    anode;
    i was wondering how to approach this.
    In the end, i've created two isolated pockets with 10mm plugs, encased/separated from the hull by epoxy. Trying to prevent water ingress into the wood of the boat.

    Should work fine. Make sure i use small screws, 15 or 20mm. Plug is 25mm.

    IMG_7988.jpg

    IMG_7989.jpg

    IMG_7990.jpg

    IMG_7991.jpg

    IMG_7992.jpg
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  10. #605
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Also drilled for the backstay chain plate.
    I was nervous of drilling through my new beauty transom and hitting the knee sweetly. Sweated over that for days.

    No pics used a square to get myself 90° to the transom, vertically. Sorta 'remembered' that as i moved the square over the drill to eye ball a line, along the center line drawn on the transom and the rudder post. Lined the drill up with that and just had at it.
    Went through sweet as a nut - straight bang into the middle of the knee - just perfect.
    I even gave myself license to let out a little whoop!


    Need to source 3 nice dome headed screws/bolts, 2x M8 and an M10 bolt - with similar heads. Panheads, hmm, Button head socket screws could work.

    Any thoughts, for this application, on filling the hole with epoxy, drilling undersized and tapping for M8 machine screws?
    (The M10 will go through to a nut on the inside, but the M8's are buried).
    I think the M8's are mostly ceremonial, there'll be no forces trying to eject them - they're perhaps mostly about lateral forces, which are not prevalent.
    Last edited by gypsie; 03-07-2021 at 11:01 PM.
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  11. #606
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Filling with epoxy and tapping would probably be strong enough, but if you have doubts, how about gluing a substantially fat piece of bronze rod into the work, then drill and tap into the bronze. Same sort of deal as epoxy except you can maybe spread the load more using the rod approach.

    Your pics above of the faired hull look pretty amazing. I'm wondering how you're feeling at this stage of the project about glassing a wooden hull compared to before starting the job?

  12. #607
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    You’re doing an amazing job Trev’, this is a massive task and it’s looking tantalisingly close to done
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  13. #608
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    ^^ what he said

  14. #609
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    ^^ what he said
    +1.
    be modest, and be proud of it.

  15. #610
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Thanks guys,
    yes it is close - I'm day dreaming of sailing...



    Small Boats - funny you should ask about what i think of the decision. I was reading the first few pages of the thread just yesterday and my reasons for doing it stand.
    If the question is "If i knew then what i know now...". I might very well have let the insurance company keep it and gone to Europe for a holiday (after Covid ).

    I don't regret the sheathing - It was a lot more effort than i anticipated. Everything took a lot longer than i expected. Its probably good i was a bit naďve about the scale of the task or i may not have taken it on. I wouldn't do it again I think - too big a commitment of time. Maybe after my kids have left perhaps, but its been a year of half weekends with them. Covid made that side of things a lot easier.

    (Next boat will be smaller for lots of reasons, but mainly just working on big boats is such a big ongoing demand. Kuylko's Myst is a dream i have had for a while. i bought the plans a few years ago.)

    But, and only dropping it back in will tell, i am looking forward to a boat that doesn't leak, that can take a small prang from an unseen log - without needing a haul out. That cannot be eaten by worms! I've made it tougher and drier, AND have a bunch of new systems in place - all new sea cocks, new rigging, new stove, new stem head, a fridge and some other stuff. A depth sounder and log - I'll know what the boat is doing! I'll even know what temp the water is before i dive in \
    I think she'll be prettier than she's been for a while - sans decades of paint.

    Prettier, tougher and better equipped. Reset the clock to near zero for the next 50 years. I'm glad i did it.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  16. #611
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Good to hear Trev’. I’m looking forward to seeing the paint on almost as much as I’m looking forward to seeing her in the water.

    Are you making any sort of allowance/estimation/change to the waterline as a result of the glassing? She’ll be heavier but probably more buoyant without wet timber - so it’ll be really interesting to see what, if any, difference there might be.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  17. #612
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    yeah, when i wooded her there were a few waterlines cut into the hull.
    The one i had always used (the only one i knew about) was about 100mm above true waterline.

    i'm figuring she'll be lighter, plus new lighter motor, so i picked the line a few centimeters below. if she floats as she did, i'll still have 50 to 70mm.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  18. #613
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I’d be surprised if she’d be lighter but it’d be the difference in weight between the wet timber and amount of glass, resin and fillers that have come into her that’d be interesting to know. Mind you - would science say that she actually displaces all that much more with wet timber once she’s in the water and surrounded by the stuff? I should know, I did all of that displacement calculation stuff with my Marine Surveying and Engineering courses years ago but I simply can’t remember if it was even discussed. (Something that Andrew C.B. or MMD Mike could probably answer in an flash)

    Do you know roughly the quantities of glass cloth and resin that you used? It’d be an interesting exercise to calculate the weight of product on her and to gauge and be able to advise anyone else what effect it has when she’s launched.

    I’ve got memories of people on here saying that a glassed hull will float lower due to weight but I don’t know if that was anyone talking from experience or just offering an opinion (I expect the latter) and it’s something that I never thought to follow up on with the ones that I saw glassed by Catersons.
    Last edited by Larks; 03-10-2021 at 04:19 PM.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  19. #614
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I admire your tenacity there Gypsie.
    She's coming along nicely.

    Cheers,
    Mike.

  20. #615
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Thanks Mike.

    I've used 72litres of epoxy/hardener. The filler is hardly worth a mention.
    The splines are probably pound for pound with the material i ripped out to make room for them.
    Glass, 90m - is 51kgs.
    Paint, probably taken off more than i'll put on. But modest gains I'm sure.
    So, saying epoxy is about the same weight as water - rough additional weight of 123kgs. Roughly say 2 crew, which from observations can affect trim (slightly), but draft.... hmmm, pretty minimal.

    My thinking about water is that a water infused plank should float lower. After all (except for green timber perhaps) the water is sitting in places where air used to be .. no?

    I'd expect, through no scientific means, she'll float the same to slightly higher.
    If wet wood floats the same ....... she'll be slightly lower. In both cases, slightly should be very small, centimeter or two, tops - at that point in the boat that'll add up to cubic meters - i don't think there's tons in the difference.

    Thinking it through, at waterline, 10mm could easily mean a ton of water - if there's a difference either way it'll probably be undetectable. So my margin of antifoul above the water might need to be reconsidered.

    Here's some waterlines i discovered.
    IMG_7044.jpg
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  21. #616
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I agree, I don’t think that it’ll have that much of an impact on your waterline that’d concern you, it’s more that I’ll be interested in what it does do if you can measure it at all - given some of the discussions that I’ve seen on the forum in the past....like I said most being opinions rather than based on any actual experience.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  22. #617
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Milling the cap rail pieces.

    IMG_7996.jpg

    The cap rail will be three sections.
    Outside face, 35mm x 10mm deep.
    Inside face, 25mm x 5mm deep
    Cap, 50mm x 20mm (may need to rip this - will be tough to bend).
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  23. #618
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Boat at the end of a day.

    two coats of primer all round.
    Topsides were sanded between coats using an airpowered RO sander with 240 grit. Soooooo smoooth!

    Will repeat once more - then just concentrate on the topsides. Priming that is.

    IMG_7999.jpg

    Next week - strip the deck of all fittings and prep for priming the whole deck. Full repaint and reseal all through deck fittings.

    Will also reseat things like the stanchions. Bore out existing holes to 20mm and plug. Re-drill and rebolt.
    I'm concerned the timber they go through isn't in the best shape around the holes in the deck beams. When i did the deck, all fittings went back to original locations, reused holes in the deck beams. Decades of wear/water ingress - some are a little soft. Not rotten, but a bit fuzzy. Just replace the lot - one less thing to worry about.
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  24. #619
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    I drilled all my old deck penetrations with a step cutter, as quite a few of them were "fuzzy" as well.
    It allowed me to stay central and open out the holes gradually up to 20 mm if needed, checking how it looked each few steps.
    I then filled them with epoxy and 407 powder with tape across the bottom of the hole.
    Most didn't get used again I don't think.

  25. #620
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Step cutter is a good idea. I was thinking through the process for keeping the bit centered.

    I was thinking bore the entire hole to 20mm from the above, glue in a long plug, patch with some glass and re-drill - but your step cutter is a much betterer idea.

    Thanks for that Slacko.
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  26. #621
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    In the end i couldn't get a 20mm bore into most holes, not enough room underneath for the drill.
    The step cutter was great! Used a speed-bore for some. For most, i pushed a 10mm plug into the top of the hole, pushed in some thick epoxy, pushed a 20mm plug as far as it would go and then pushed in thick epoxy all round.
    I'll drill through that and re-bolt with longer bolts. Must grab some M10 mudguard washers.

    I'm pretty happy i did this, feels solid.
    I'll seal the hell out of the fittings. I've tried butyl tape as Phil used to use. Its clear it gives a loverly seal, but it doesn't seem to go off in any way - and keeps smearing every time something rubs it.
    Safe and sound, but a bit messy i think.

    I bought some 15mm wide rolls. Maybe a thinner tape more strategically applied will be better.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  27. #622
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    My camera has literally bitten the dust. Almost totally clogged with sanding dust...... so no pics for now.

    My 15yo son came to help - and wow he was so handy! I think i can count on a much speedier completion date. Have extended my mooring vacancy until end of June - accepted by maritime. But I'm thinking i could be ready sooner.

    Rigging guys had trouble importing parts - but they should have arrived today.
    Fourth and final coat of primer applied and dried. needs sanding.
    Got all my through hulls in. HEAPS of sikaflex round the fitting, bead on the inside edge, squished on with liberal squeeze out. Cleaned up with scraper and turps. left for four or five hours and then everything got half a turn to nip it up tight. Looks neat and firm.
    Sanded deck, discovered very wet timber and rot in the cockpit coaming. Inexplicably wet. There was a hole in the paint, 5c coin, and when i poked it with a chisel it started to give. water flowed out of it - i think the water was kept in place by the 2 pack primer and polyurethane finish. I'll let it dry and see how extensive the rot is. I think its mostly just wet, but it is a bit soft.

    Next visit;
    coaming rot..... graving piece and thick epoxy.
    thick epoxy fill bits and pieces on the deck, mostly at the toe rail. Prime deck and cabin top with epoxy primer.
    Sand topsides.
    General prep for first top coat on the topsides and deck, and first coat of non-ablative bottom paint.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  28. #623
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Fridge unit I installed stopped working. ran through the checklist and contacted the supplier. Ocean Solutions guys are very helpful, sent down a new control module to swap out - not the problem. Looks like it might be the compressor which they assure me is almost impossible - they just never die apparently. They're sending down a whole new unit for me to swap out. They're service is really excellent, i couldn't ask for anymore than they are doing.

    Steel work is nearly finished - must bring bow fitting to sandblaster and get it powder coated.

    Run some plumbing.
    Install rigging.......
    reinstall all the deck fittings and chain plates.
    Cap on toe rail - thats a bit of a joinery mission, not my strong suit (thank goodness for thick epoxy!). I'll glue with epoxy and screw on, plug, sand and oil with tung oil. I'm so over varnish.

    Merd! thats it!
    I think i'm looking at end of May if all the third party stuff works out. Must make enquiries with the crane.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  29. #624
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Steel work is nearly finished - must bring bow fitting to sandblaster and get it powder coated.
    Why do you want to powdercoat? If the fitting is mild steel have it galvanized, then paint it with something that can be touched up when chipped (wich is guaranteed to happen). Stainless, bronze and titanium you leave bare, aluminium gets anodized.

  30. #625
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Why do you want to powdercoat? If the fitting is mild steel have it galvanized, then paint it with something that can be touched up when chipped (wich is guaranteed to happen). Stainless, bronze and titanium you leave bare, aluminium gets anodized.
    Its steel, but the work is a bit rough. I don't have a way of linishing it to a shine so i figured cover it.
    The sandblasting is by way of giving it a thorough clean and the powder coating is to soften some of the rougher bits.

    Possibility #2 is, sand blast and epoxy prime - i do have quite a lot of epoxy primer left. Then a PU top coat. That ensures an exact colour match with the boat.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  31. #626
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    You don't have to properly linish, just polish. The surfaces don't have to be perfectly flat and parallel, just smooth. This can be achieved with sandpaper, by going trough the grits, then polish with paste, it's just tedious. A dremel can be a great help for the corners. Once polished you can passivate with citric acid. The underside can stay relatively rough, and you use thickened epoxy to perfectly bed the fitting.

    Powdercoating is a good finish, but if it gets damaged is hard to repair, and some powdercoatings allow water to go under the coating once chipped (the coating is like a plastic film, if hit it can release from the steel).

    It's still don't clear to me if it's stainless or mild steel, but in both cases if you want to paint the best thing is to prime then use fairing compound to achieve a smooth finish before painting. That said, I would not paint stainless and galvanize mild steel before painting.

  32. #627
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    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Thanks Rumars, its 316 Stainless.
    It's mostly vanity to cover up the rough work in fabrication. Check out post #590.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  33. #628
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    903

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    Thanks, now I remember. I would put it in a vice and attack it with angle grinder and flapper disk, a dremel with various sanding attachments, then orbital sander/wet handsanding, then a felt wheel with paste. It's an ungrateful job, and I would gladly pay to have someone else do it. Still, I would not paint it, I would just go for "good enough", then passivate and expect to repolish sometime down the line.
    One thing you can do is look for someone that does electropolishing and ask how much it costs. Clean the welds yourself with the grinder/dremel, and have them do the rest.

  34. #629
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    5,877

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    You mention citric acid to pacivate, just a thought bubble; does oxalic acid passivate 316?

    series of grinder disks sounds good.
    I have a bunch of fine disks I bought by accident. Not as fine as 3000 or anything like that.
    it's a bit of an annoyance to be honest.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  35. #630
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    903

    Default Re: Fiberglass Sheathing a 1962 Carvel Hull

    As far as I know, citric is the best option, and the cheapest. Oxalic will remove rust stains very well, but will not passivate properly. I would use it to be sure to have removed all embedded iron from fabricating, before passivation.

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