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Thread: An Ilur in Hansville

  1. #491
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    My two cents David- Iíd make the deck permanent and install the gunwales first.
    I found a lot of cleaning up on the underside of the gunwales before the epoxy set and you also want the deck to follow the line of the gunwales for a snug fit.
    I glues the fore-most 2 planks of my deck ( likely the total length of your shorter deck) together off the boat and found the result didnít follow the slight curve of the gunwales as well as it could as it was horizontal. The remaining planks were glued in situ to follow that gunwale line.
    mare you leaving the top strake bright? I like it, but then I have a clear bias.

  2. #492
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks Wayne. I’m following your advice. I was just making the fore deck template. I thought it was easier to draw the template underneath and along the top strake before the gunwales where in place. I’ll install the fore deck after the rub rail/gunwales are on. I don’t have a single piece of wood to make the fore deck. I have a plank I’ll have to cut and shape to make it. I know you made yours all one piece the same way. Hartman and Vivier’s plans show 3 separate pieces and maybe a gap between them. Each plank is bolted down through the gunwales. I’m not sure what I’ll do yet. How do you plan to mill the holes in your fore deck after it is installed? I epoxied on the stbd rub rail today. I used lots of clamps and had a hard time keeping it down and following the sweep of the top strake. It stayed down easier when there was more friction, but with the slippery epoxy there wasn’t any friction to keep it down. My paint/bright plan is still fluid. However I do plan on painting the top strake sea green. I’ll oil the floorboards for sure. I’m still undecided about the thwarts and decks. I don’t have enough knowledge to know whether to oil the thwarts and decks or to varnish?

  3. #493
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Yes, the rails are slippery when epoxied up all right!
    I found screws invaluable to hold and control them but spent a bit of time planning placement so I wouldnít drill a fitting into them later. Itíll probably still happen.
    Iíll be varnishing everything not painted except the floor, seats, thwarts.
    Iím familiar with that method from my canoe/ kayak builds but figure the horizontal surfaces will take most of the wear and would be too slippery/impossible to maintain if varnished.

    still thinking about how to cut the mast holes. Likely a handheld jig saw.

  4. #494
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi David, I use both clamps and screws to control the gunwale - which is a difficult beast because it bends in 2 dimensions (at least) - I put screws right through the gunwale and into the inwale - then I plug the screws with wood plugs after everything has set. Must admit I tend to put the gunwales on after the decks so that I can finish the decks by a) planing their edge trim with sheer and b) sealing them by laying dynel cloth across the deck and over the edge which is then covered by the gunwale afterwards. But each to their own method :-) Good to hear you Illur is making good progress. I have the plans for a Somes Sound 12 1/2 on order, I like Herreschoff designs...................

  5. #495
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks for the tips Wayne and Neil. I have both rub rails on now. I didnít have to use any screws yet, but it was tricky holding the rail down to follow the strake sweep. I found that I could clamp them down from the seat/thwart risers. I had a real mess to clean up and a hard time getting the clamps off. The Gel Magic is really sticky to the clamps soft rubber pads, and I had to use a lot of clamps. Iím using Bessie clamps. Some have a hard plastic pads which do not stick, but others have a soft rubber which stuck real good.
    Wayne, before you permanently install your fore deck are you sealing the wood edges? Are you going to epoxy in the fore deck or run some bolts down through the gunwales and the deck?
    Neil, the fore deck for my rig isnít very big. Itís more like a breast hook/mast partner. It fits up under the gunwales and the aft end sits on mast partner knees. Itís normally held in place with bolts running through the gunwales. Iíll be making it by gluing up 3 pieces and cutting it to shape. if I glue the 3 pieces together after the gunwales are in ďin placeĒ I can get it faired to the sweep of the gunwales. Then I can take it back out, clean it up, seal all the edges, and then place it in permanently.
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  6. #496
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Those picture show a nice gunwale David - good job :-)

  7. #497
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Some handsome gunwales David. Nice work doing that screwless!

    I'll be sealing the deck edges pre-glue.

    I've positioned screws upwards through the deck into the gunwales and, given the sloop deck is longer, I'll use some short wedges in the notches at the top of bulkhead nine that hold the deck knees in your version. The wedges, used temporarily in a test fit help put some upward pressure on the deck towards the gunwale and make the fit very tight indeed. It appears to be acting like a giant breasthook, which I think is the plan.

    I've also shaped and fitted the quarter knees you mentioned in your PM. I found the kit pattern needed to be lengthened by about 5-8mm at the rear to account for the angle of the transom, which is significant. A little test fitting with a bevel will get you there. I'll post a pic on my thread in the next day or so. I'm now epoxy coating the interior, before fitting the deck. It's very laborious and un-fun.

  8. #498
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Thanks Neil, I’m working on the next layer of gunwale. I’ll be putting in screws through this layer of gunwale into the rub rail. It’s taking some time to work out where other screws may go (oar locks, quarter knees, fore deck).

  9. #499
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Wayne, I’m still trying to decide whether to make my fore deck one solid piece or three separate pieces. I’ll decide when I get there. Also whether to epoxy it all I or make it removable. Are you still going to epoxy yours in? It sounds like you are.
    it sounds like your quarter knee pattern is the same as mine plus my angle is also off by that amount. I’ll have to either shorten the forward end or leave a small bit of the corner off which would be ok once it’s way under the gunwale.

  10. #500
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    The inner layer of gunwale is made up of three pieces. I clamped down the aft pieceís then I took a left turn. Iíll need to put some screws through this layer and into the rub rail. But first, I need to figure out where I donít want screws that will interfere with other pieces that will need to be screwed into the gunwales. In trying to figure out where the aft quarter knees would be screwed down I ended up making the quarter knees. The kit came with a pattern but for some reason the angles didnít match. It was easier to make a full size model from scrap wood to the right angles, then use the pattern to find a curve that would fit on the material I had. Iíll also have to figure out where I want the oar locks and where the fore deck screws will go. I am so grateful for the tools I have.
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  11. #501
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Nice work on those quarter knees!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  12. #502
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Beautiful boat and lovely work...now I want one!

  13. #503
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Looking good David.

  14. #504
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    The aft section of the middle gunwales has been epoxied down. I did a temp fitting of the middle section so I could mark on the rubrail where the forward end would be. Iím using Ash for the gunwales. When I was bending the forward section into place I was worried it might break so I steamed it before bending it in. With the forward section fitted in I can cut off the aft end just a little longer than where I marked the forward end of the middle section. After I glue in the forward section I can trim the forward end of the middle section to fit snuggly. The plan says to screw the gunwale down to the tops of the bulkheads. It doesnít say whether to do this for the mid and inner most gunwale or just one or the other. Iím wondering if it really matters whether I screw the gunwale down to the bulkheads or not. They will be glued and screwed all along the vertical surface and glued to the tops of the bulkheads. Is a screw into the bulkhead really necessary?
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  15. #505
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Iím not getting much boat time lately. With relatives visiting, removing the well house roof to replace the 25 year old well pump, and mowing 5 hours a week, it doesnít leave a whole lot of time left over. But, I have managed to get the inner gunwales epoxied on. They are all cleaned up and all my clamps have been cleaned up too. They do get lots of epoxy on them. My plan to epoxy on the aft and forward sections of the inner gunwale and then fit in the middle section was a good plan, but it didnít turn out as well as I had hoped. Because the middle section is curved it was hard to get it into place and fit perfectly. I had to leave a little gap just to get it in place. Itís a good thing I plan on painting my rails. The last gunwale comes in two sections with a scarf in the middle. My plan is to fit and epoxy in the forward section then sneak up on the transom fit on the aft section so the already cut scarf is lined up. Weíll see how this worked.

  16. #506
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Looking very nice - and great photos.......................

  17. #507
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Looking good David. I just finished gluing in the last of the gunwale pieces myself. I did mine in full length and it was a difficult fit.9C7824B7-0BD3-4256-A252-26D983765688.jpg

  18. #508
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    David, there's a man happy in his work. Nice one.

  19. #509
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Munroe, installing the last rail in two pieces is tough enough. Doing it as one piece seems way to difficult. I roughed out the forward end then steamed it and will let it sit over night. With the forward section mostly to shape it will be easier to fit that forward end. Once the forward section is glued in, it will be easier to fit the transom end and the glue it in with the scarf. Thatís the theory anyway.

  20. #510
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Wayne, you have done a whole lot of work and it really looks nice. Once I get my rails on I’ll start back on the hull with fillets and epoxy.

  21. #511
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Wayne / David,
    If the gunwale is hard to bend I got around this by soaking the timber in a local Brackish creek for 2 weeks before bending - then left it clamped and bent for 2 weeks in the Australian sun. Gluing and screwing in place after that was fairly easy. And I had plenty of other stuff to do whilst waiting - like driving up to QLD to look at dinosaur bones that a farmer found in his paddock!

  22. #512
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Neil, looking a dinosaur bones sounds like something I’d like to do. I’ve been steaming my hard to bend rails and that’s been working for me. I’m using a steam system from Rockler and a thick plastic sleeve material as a steam chamber. It’s very easy to use and works great. I have both forward sections of my last inwale bent and ready to glue on. I’m doing my last inwale in two sections fore and aft with a scarf in the middle.

  23. #513
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Yes steaming is a great solution - and not that difficult if you follow the base principles. Glad to hear no splintering noises :-)

  24. #514
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Another milestone reached. The rubrail and inwales are on and 98% cleaned up. Iíll still need to round over the edges at some point. Time to shift focus again. I think itís time to take the side seats, aft deck, and thwarts back out and start the cleanup of the interior. That means lots of fillets, sanding, and prep for 2 coats of epoxy. It also means taking the floatation foam back out. Iím going to number each piece so I can get it all back in the right place. Iím also going to paint the tops and bottoms. In case anyone is interested, Iím using Home Depot construction pink board. Iíve had a piece of the foam which has been abraded and sitting in a bucket of water for almost 3 months. So far no sigh of any water soaking in.
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  25. #515
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Nice, very nice :-)

  26. #516
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Looks great!

    Just curious--what's the advantage of using foam, rather than sealed air chambers? Obviously, foam will still hold flotation if the chamber is holed, so there's that. But it's also heavier than air, and (I'm guessing) a bit fussy to fit.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  27. #517
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Tom, the French designer made this decision. The tops of the floatation chambers are open because of the gaps between the seats and decks. He has limber holes in the bulkheads and chamber deciders to channel the water. Yes, the foam was sort of tedious to fit. I can only surmise that the advantage is so the interior of the chamber can be periodically cleaned, inspected, and refinished.

  28. #518
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Looks great!

    Just curious--what's the advantage of using foam, rather than sealed air chambers? Obviously, foam will still hold flotation if the chamber is holed, so there's that. But it's also heavier than air, and (I'm guessing) a bit fussy to fit.

    Tom
    In the EU the rules require foam vs. airtight chambers....I think.
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

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  29. #519
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton B Chase View Post
    In the EU the rules require foam vs. airtight chambers....I think.

    Can you provide a source?I hate the idea of foam filled compartments.

  30. #520
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Those gunwales look wonderful David. Nice work.

    I'm just looking at flotation.

    Can I ask what you paid for the foamular? This stuff seems pretty pricey here which is unsurprising given the kind of small market monopoly we have for building materials in NZ.

    I've spoken to a commercial outfit that could hook me up with long skinny offcuts for about US$200. I'm considering that but also am thinking of masses of closed cell pool noodles cut to fit at about half that price.

  31. #521
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Wayne and John,
    I forget the actual price because I bought it so long ago, it I think it was around $30 US dollars for a 2” thick 4’ x 8’ piece. It was readily available at Home Depot at the time. It was normal construction foam board.

    i’m working on interior clean up and I’ve started doing some fillet work.

  32. #522
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Can you provide a source?I hate the idea of foam filled compartments.
    There's no current EU requirement for foam flotation. There's a flotation test when swamped with water and a timed recovery/ reboarding test. Otherwise you're free to have a sealed ply tank if you wished. It would also give storage through a hatch. Non commercial, traditional build, 'racing use only' etc are exempt.

    So why doesn't Vivier do that? Well France before the EU had a bit of a history of foam filled boats. I think there was a stipluation a few decades ago that boats had to stay afloat even with constructional failure. Alot of double hulled foam filled trailer sailers like Etaps. To be fair it did help a few people who found themselves cut in half by a chainsaw...though the hulls were overweight. Could eventually absorb water once hull wave pounding compressed the polyurthane closed cell foam underneath, then you had a problem if water/ condensation got in...speaking from experience.

    Vivier's solution avoids having to fit and rolling a bevel after fitting a stringer diagonally accross the plywood planking aft. Not impossible but a bit of a fiddle. You'd fit a ply top to it (like say a Welsford). It's a kit boat and there would also be a risk of it not fitting quite right by the time the boat is right way up etc. He could supply a CNC tank top and yo could epoxy glue it to an epoxy shelf alternatively but thats another fiddle.

    By placing two wooden boards on the semi open tank top, you've got nice wood boards to sit on, spray water drains through (dry seat) and the water in the tank drains out the bottom into her big deep baffled bilge. It means the wood doesn't have to be glued together and glued to the boat. It wouldn't hold anyway without a ply top to the tank. So I'd say it's for "constructional efficiency" if thats your thing. Caged closed cell foam does the job when needed. You could pour in liqud expanding polurethane carefully (a builders product) or inflate a beach ball even, inner tubes whatever. Yo can see his constructional efficiency in other areas like the centerboard/ case arrangement.

    I'd take the same approach/ solution and fit a 'semi open foam tank' buoyancy into a traditional built riveted clinker boat if I wanted some buoyancy as you couldn't be gluing tanks into that. Down side is a bit of dust and debris ending up in there and the foam if it compresses eventually will start to absorb water superficially, but it's be easy enough to remove and refinish the seat tops and clean it out once a year. The issue of leaking hatches is avoided too. It's a pretty clever way of doing it - it avoids having to build a sealed tank.

    It's also worth noting that Vivier has bothered to calculate and Ilur has passed stability and downflooding requirements to pass CE Cat C (Force 6/ 2m waves) use @ 540kg displacement. I know of no other wooden dinghy to achieve that. I think Welsford's would pass but Vivier has done the paperwork. Again the French authorities are pretty keen on all this (despite their Revolutution) the UK..well you're free to go to sea in a bathtub, again a legacy of the' right to navigation' from the British Empire. I remember his son was selling/ building Ilur's and his other designs somewhere near Cherbourg for a time. There's a few commerical yards who will build you an Ilur in France. Not cheap but they are probably required to fit a CE sticker being commerical, as here.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 05-19-2021 at 05:21 AM.

  33. #523
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Fillets. Not my favorite boat work. Geoff Kerr and other professionals make it look so easy. I certainly haven’t mastered it yet. I filleted around all the structural joints that I thought needed it and maybe more than I needed. I tried to get each fillet cleaned up as much as possible, but when I went back to sand them down I’m amazed at what a lousy job I made of it. A lot of the fillets are under floorboards so they don’t have to look pretty, but I also don’t want big globs and gubers to hold water and junk. I’ve sanded my fingers down quite a bit too. Once I’ve got the fillets mostly sanded I think I’ll go back over some of them with fairing compound to make them smoother and at least the above floorboard fillets more presentable. I’m only getting a few hours a day on the boat because of domestic chores. The well needed a new pump and I had to rebuild a portion of the well house roof and lots of spring time yard work.

  34. #524
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Here's my 1.5 cents re filleting:-
    a) Use Wests filleting powder in their epoxy
    b) mix well to a firm peanut butter consistency
    c) pour/spoon into a polythene ziplock bag and cut a corner off the bag leaving a fairly small (8mm approx) hole
    d) squeeze the filleting mix into the void to be filled running the bag along the seam
    e) use a dowel or lollypop stick to run along the fillet to give it a nice consistent concave shape, use a sharp naoor scraper (I use plastic ones) to scrape up the excess fillet which spills out either side of the dowel/loppypop
    f) once set & well hardened sand using a small soft backed (about 75mm diameter) sanding disc (velcro backed) in your electric drill

    Hopefully some of this might make it easier for you - I had a lot of false starts to the process with a number of open and frank conversations before we finally found something which worked for both human, boat & epoxy..

    Regards Neil

  35. #525
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Attached Thumbnails

    This looks so great, David! She is going to be beautiful.

    Neil's suggestions above re: filleting are all good, and I will add my new trick which is to get the mix good and thick, squeeze it in with the pastry decorating bag, run a popsicle stick or shaped piece of thin scrap, clean up a bit, then go inside for a cup of something. After an appropriate amount of time, say an hour, I go out and put on nitrile gloves ( or bare fingers, depending on how set-up the epoxy is) and dipping a finger in denatured alcohol, begin smoothing and shaping the fillet. Mostly eliminates sanding, but is a bit finicky to do in practice.

    Mike

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