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Thread: An Ilur in Hansville

  1. #456
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I’m not necessarily against tight knot WRC, but I’m saying that it is way to bendy. I would have to place cleats or cross supports every 7 to 8 inches to make it feel solid. These are only 5/8” thick boards and they deflect way to much. They actually feel like they could break if someone jumped on them. You think the tight knot should be stiffer, but what I am experiencing is not the case.

  2. #457
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    When deciding what material to use as floor boards there are some considerations. Durability, appearance, the support span, board thickness, and cost. The 5/8" Tight knot cedar that I have has most of those qualities, except that it requires to many supports. The plans for this design and for the spans that the floor boards are for using Red Pine, Doug Fir, or mahogany. Each of these materials will easily span the widths of the design. Unfortunately, the 5/8" thick tight know cedar is not stiff enough for the design span. And, I am stuck with a 5/8" thickness to match up with the design of a matching side board. To make the tight knot cedar even reasonably stiff I have played with adding supports in the middle of each of the supports I already have. With 7" between supports it is ok. But anything more than that feels mushy. When you look at the picture of the mid section you can see the added supports. I have found that not even this is enough to keep the boards from flexing too much. I will have to put in 2 extra supports between the design bulkheads. Ok, I can do that, but then there is the fore deck. I'm sure I can put in 2 extra supports there, but it is a little more tricky and it cuts down on my floatation foam.
    All of these supports can be eliminated by using a different material like Doug Fir, Ipe, Cypress, Port Orford cedar, Alaskan Yellow Cedar (which is related to Cypress), or Pine. I can get the CVRG Doug Fir and Ipe from my local lumber yard but the cost is very high. I might be able to order on line to get one of the other woods. What I would like to most is Alaskan Yellow Cedar which has all the right qualities and can easily span the design supports for my boat and is much less expensive than the Doug fir or Ipe. I am looking into places in Washington, Oregon, and Montana for other materials.
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  3. #458
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I finally feel like I've actually accomplished something. A lot of my time lately has been taken up with mowing and reseeding the lawn, cutting down trees, and general clean up for my step mom's and my yard. There is always so much to do here in the PNW when things start to grow. To make matters worse, my well pump stopped working. I was very fortunate that it was the pump electrical controlled box that fried and was replaced.

    As for the boat I finally got something tangible accomplished. After floundering around with the floor boards I decided to put that project on hold. I was advised not to change the boat design by adding additional floor board supports, but instead place cleats under the boards at intervals that will make them stiffer. As I stated before, the 5/8" tight knot cedar seemed very bendy to me so I went in search of another material. I've ordered some 1 x 8" Alaskan Yellow Cedar boards which I've been told are much stiffer than the Western Red Cedar. I'll have to wait until I see the Alaskan cedar boards and check the water content before I'll be able to tell if I can use them now. I might have to let them air dry for awhile before milling to thickness and width.
    So I went back to what I was doing before the floor boards. I cut and fitting the 2 thwarts and made and epoxied in some additional supports that the thwarts will sit on. These additional supports are not meant to take the weight of the thwarts which rest on the side seat battens. They are primarily just added meat to provide a place to run the thwart mounting screws/boats/toggles. My plan is still to use machine screws to fasten down the forward thwart with brass wing nuts underneath. I haven't made up my mind yet about the aft thwart whether to do the same thing or to use wooden toggles underneath to make it easy to remove the thwart if I'm going to do any weekend boat camping.
    I'm already into paint scratch repair. I was moving my bandsaw stand and managed to put a 3" long scratch in the hull paint.
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  4. #459
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I know everyone has their own way to make templates for those form fit cut jobs. I used the Geoff Kerr method to fit the Thwarts, but I also use a 2 step method by starting with heavy paper which can be easily cut and formed, then transferring that to 1/4" plywood which I used to make the side seats. I wasn't sure how I was going to cut the side seats to the curve of the hull, and I was hesitant to start that project. But, I re-watched Geoff Kerr's video series again and bought a 6 1/2" Makita battery pack circular saw. After making sure I had a good pattern I cut the side seats to fit the hull by cutting just outside the line and the finished it with a block plane. I've waited to finish the thwarts round overs and underside champers until I had the actual placement of the side seats so the aft side champer will be just between the open area between the side seats. I'll wait to start the aft deck until the side seats are actually screwed down and I know what the spacing with be. To fasten down the side seats and aft deck I'm going to use brass countersink washers as suggested by Clint Chase. I've never used these before so I'll need to do some experimenting with drill size and depth for these washers.
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  5. #460
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I'm not getting much boat work time these days, because there's so much other domestic chores to do. I've managed to get the aft deck roughed out, but there's still a lot more to do like round overs, fastening down, building a frame for the aft deck hatch, and deciding on what hinges to use for the hatch. I've ordered some "Counter Flap" hinges and I'll decide which hinges to use when I get those. It might depend on which type will be easier to inset into the deck.
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  6. #461
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    Guerilla Bay, NSW, Australia
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Very nice work David - love the curve in the side benches. Yes, I reckon Geoff Kerr knows what he is doing as well - I tend to follow a lot of his ideas/suggestions especially on how to lighten the look of the interior of the boat. Makes a very big difference versus using unshaped timber and make it look as if a carpenter did the work :-)
    My hull still has a leak after todays test - make sure that centreboard case is well bedded in epoxy. I didn't and am paying the price...............................

    Keep on posting photos, your boat is going to be lovely.

  7. #462
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    She's looking really fine David. You do nice work. I watch/re-watch Geoff videos as well. It's amazing the little things you can avoid by just taking the time to watch someone with his experience at work. "Do this, because it's going to be hard to get to later." And I'm thinking, man, I would totally forgotten to do that!

    Keep up the good work! You're just enough ahead of me to keep me motivated!

    Ken
    When the desire to learn is greater than the desire to win, the journey becomes the prize.

  8. #463
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    The pine seat tops look great!
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  9. #464
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Looking very fine David. Kind of you to blaze a trail here for those following along. I've started some enquiries for the flooring and seating timber.

  10. #465
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I got all the side seat and aft deck boards rounded over and have mapped out a tentative screw pattern. I’ve test the depth and drill size for using the brass countersunk washers. I think they will do a good job of keeping the screw heads from sinking into the softer pine. I’m just coming home from a 2 hour drive to pick up some 1x 8 Alaskan yellow cedar boards. I’m probably going to use them for floorboards and the fore deck. Alaskan yellow cedar is very stiff and will easily span the designed bulkhead spacing. I’ll have to rent a surface planners though to mill them down a bit. I can keep them thicker for the fore deck and can make them 11/16 vs 5/8” thick for the floor boards. The floorboards thickness need to match the 5/8” thick side boards, but they can be a little thicker and still be ok.

  11. #466
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Great David, hope the AYC works for you...it's nice stuff albeit a bit stinky!
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  12. #467
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    If I worked any slower I'd be standing still. It's still cold here hitting the mid 40'sF in the garage in the mornings. I have a hard time getting out there until later in the day and my mind just doesn't work well in the cold. I keep making bone head mistakes. The Alaskan Yellow Cedar isn't dry enough to cut yet, but it won't take much time. The moisture content isn't much more than the WRC that's been in the garage for a year. It does smell like cedar, but having been born and raised in the PNW the smell of cedar is in my blood.
    I'm still working on the side seats and aft deck, but making some slow progress. Because I'm using "brass countersink washers" under the screws, there is an added step in the process. After laying out the screw placement I used the hand drill press and a 3/8" forstner bit to drill for the countersink washers. After lining up the boards again I drilled the screw holes. Tomorrow I'll take the boards back out and drill for the screw shank clearance hole and make sure the screw hole depth is right.
    With the hatch boards set in place, I'm using a Clint Chase trick by taping over the boards and then hot gluing cleats over the top of the tape. Then I can take the hatch boards off, turn them over and make and install the hatch board frame. I'm not sure how I'll make the frame yet, but I'm thinking of making the joints a "Bridle Joint" like John Hartman. I've never done that before so I'm not sure how it will turn out.
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  13. #468
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Neil, sorry about the leak. I’ve read other posts with similar problems. I’m keeping my fingers crossed when I finally get my keel wet. I think I’ll put lots of fillets all around the CB case. What are you doing as a fix?

  14. #469
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Best seat the case in a decent bed of your poison cos if you put fillets around it’s too late.

  15. #470
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Andrew, could you explain that a little more?

  16. #471
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I think Andrew might mean a fillet will stop water coming into the interior but it won't solve the origin of the leak and still leave the centreboard structure vulnerable?

    I hope I used enough 'poison' on mine...

    David, those seats look great. I'll steal the idea of stirrer stick spacers for when I get there.

    Could you post a pic of those washers to help me understand the purpose a little better?

  17. #472
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I am attacking leks on 2 fronts. a) by adding splodges (tech term) of epoxy glue inside the centreboard case using a longish rectangular piece of timber and b) more splodges of epoxy applied from underneath the hull (on the trailer). Neither approach is fun and each attempt needs the centreboard removed. If I had ensure squeeze out all around the centreboard case when I installed it this would not have happened lesson learnt!!!

  18. #473
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    Boston, MA
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Re: centercase leaks -- is the joint far up in the case? I guess through the keel/keelson? I wonder if it is possible to sand down some space and lay glass tape along the joint _inside_ the case along the joint. That's the essential idea that the design I'm building (Apple 16) uses, though there is no wood keelson (just a false keel on the outside, added after this is done) and centercase drops through a slot in the hull so that joint is much more accessible to the outside.

  19. #474
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Wayne, I got the info about the brass countersunk washers from Clint Chase. Iím using #8 screws for the side seats and aft deck. They are used To keep the screw heads from sinking in and to help distribute the screw head pressure. I ordered them fro a company called ďLee ValleyĒ. I think they also help if the screws are close to the board ends.
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  20. #475
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Quote Originally Posted by WayneT View Post
    I think Andrew might mean a fillet will stop water coming into the interior but it won't solve the origin of the leak and still leave the centreboard structure vulnerable?

    I hope I used enough 'poison' on mine...

    David, those seats look great. I'll steal the idea of stirrer stick spacers for when I get there.

    Could you post a pic of those washers to help me understand the purpose a little better?
    exactly Wayne, when setting case mask off everywhere, then use more than enough of your goo plus a bit more and watch that you get squeeze out all along seam evenly, if there are any places where you don’t get squeezeout remove case and put more goo. Better fixed now than risk what poor Neil has to deal with.

  21. #476
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    The temps in the morning are back down to 34F in the garage. But, if I wait a bit, the sun shines into the garage door and raises the temp up a bit. I'm still messing with the small job of making the aft deck hatch frame. I chickened out on making the joints by the Bridle Joint method. Instead, I used the Milescraft 1311 dowel jig which I bought specifically for this joint when I was reading all the Ilur posts a year ago. This was the first time I've doweled anything. I decided to make the frame out of some good Doug Fir and milled it down to 3/4" thick by 2 1/2" wide. It felt like I should have made it at least 7/8" thick because it was a little bit too flexible. So, Instead of making another one I decided to add a layer of fiberglass to the plank side in hopes that it would stiffen up a little. It was too cold in the garage even for the fast hardener, so I did the epoxy out side in the full sun and the temp actually got high enough to cure. Because the frame is small I could bring it into the house to finish cure overnight. One more coat of epoxy today to fill the weave.
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  22. #477
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    It's hard to believe how long it's taken me to finish the side seats and aft deck. But, finally I'm almost done. The hatch is done, the hinges inset and installed, and I even have the hatch "latches" installed (one on each side of the hatch). All that's left is to get some silicone bronze machine screws for the hatch hinges. I've put in some temp screws, but I'd like to replace some of them with through bolt machine screws where I can. The temps are still pretty cold. It's actually gotten colder the last few weeks. The morning temp in the garage is around 36F and it gets up to around 46F. My plan right now is to prime and paint the side seats, aft deck, and fore deck, but to oil the thwarts and floor boards.
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  23. #478
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    That looks great David.
    Some very clean lines and work on the hinges and lazarette lid.
    That's a good idea about the machine screws. Also, that little latch is interesting. I'd been wondering about a retaining method for that lid.
    well done.

  24. #479
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Wayne, I have one of those latches on each side of the hatch. I have the adjusting screws fully in and it still isn’t quite as tightly latched as I would like, but I’ll see how it goes. I’m also thinking of rigging a small line to the lid to prevent it from going fully back and hitting the top of the transom.

  25. #480
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Itís sill un characteristically cold here for April. My hands a feet were freezing in the garage yesterday. To make matters worse I end up standing around a lot trying to decide what to do. As a first time builder, I donít have the experience to know what is right or wrong. Iím working on the thwarts and if I was going to bolt them down some of the issue would be resolved. But, sinsce I want the aft thwart to be removable there are several things to figure out.
    should I leave a gap between the thwart and the side seats or can the thwart be butted up to them with no gap? If I want a gap how will I keep the thwart from moving fore and aft? How will I keep the thwart from moving port to starboard? Iíve made a small hard wood shim that I could epoxy to the side of the bulkhead which would give me a gap and keep the thwart from moving aft. I made a small shaped block that could be epoxied onto the side seat support that would keep the thwart from moving forward. I can make and epoxy on a block that would mount onto the underside of the thwart to keep the thwart from moving athwart ships. All this is possible, except that to make everything a snug fit I have to figure out the thicknessís of the places where there would be epoxy/primer and paint. Iím also mindful of how each step needs to be sequenced. Before I chamfer the underside of the thwarts I need to know where the chamfer is to start and finish. There are no instructions for these questions and even though pictures to help there are still areas left up to the builder to figure out.

  26. #481
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    One idea which I have used is to use cleats under boards to a) hold them together and b) stop them sliding around. The great thing is that noone knows the cleats are there other than you. In Bella for example I used cleats to hold the sole boards together and because the cleats are against the floors the sole does not move - at all :-) So I have no screws going through the sole in Bella other than the screws on the underside which hold the cleats to the sole boards. Just and idea to be pondered. Hope you have a seat in your workshop to help with the pondering - for me its the critical tool, so I have 2 seats!

  27. #482
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Itís one thing to go slow, but itís quite another to go backwards. I had my first epoxy fail. The temp was up a bit so I wanted to do just a little epoxy job to glue on the two small blocks that will keep the aft thwart from moving forward. I mixed up the smallest batch I could measure and had the best texture mix so far. Everything went as planned, except the epoxy never hardened. Not sure what went wrong, but I had no choice but to scrape it all off and cut off the small blocks. It was easy to cut the small blocks off with a thin blade pairing saw, but no fun scraping off all the other epoxy spots that were just to cover surface defects and fill over screw heads. I am making progress, but Iíve also spent a lot of time with projects that I wonít be using. I spent a week making additional floor board supports, then decided to use the Alaskan Yellow Cedar which is much stiffer and I wonít need additional supports or cleats. I fit the thwart support stanchions, but I didnít really like how they worked. Clint Chase showed me how he uses a stiffener glued under the thwart to act as a support. The stanchions are part of the Ilur design, but they have their drawbacks, especially for the removable thwart. Iíll most likely use the stiffener under the thwart. Iíll be taking a week off in a few days to visit my son and grandkids. When I come back Iíll have to start making some headway. I have to surface plane the Alaskan cedar and cut the floorboards to fit and start the rubrail/gunwales project.

  28. #483
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I'm sure everyone has a dud mix/temp episode with epoxy at some point David. At least it wasn't on something majorly structural and harder to recover from.

    That's a good idea with the stiffener on the thwart that I might have to appropriate on my Ilur also. I'd been looking at the stanchions with reluctance and imagining how much more difficult it would make stowing thwarts when switching to the anticipated camping mode.

  29. #484
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I love the stiffeners...maybe I should make them a permanent thing in the kits!?
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  30. #485
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Clint I would definitely talk to Ilur kit buyers about what they might prefer. My view is that unless the stanchion is epoxied at the stanchion to plywood base and the base is epoxied to the thwart, it just won’t be secure enough. The stanchion is definitely in the way if the buyer wants to have the thwart removable. The stiffener is a good alternative. I have to add though, that I beefed up the stiffeners I made to suite the bulk of an Ilur. I made the thickness 1”, the center height 1 1/2”, and tapered down to 1” at the ends. But, I always over build things.

  31. #486
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi David, a multitool is really useful for cutting out those unplanned pieces that need correcting - the multitool is hellishly noisy but you can get into hard to reach areas (like where the centreboard case logs meet the keelson, don't ask me why !) and if you buy a cheap one you can get it for AU$60. Also consider using chefs/cooks plastic measuring spoons to accurately measure small amounts of epoxy - that's what I use and I have 2 sets of spoons each of which is plastic and coloured so its 5 yellow resin and 1 yellow hardener - so far no mistakes :-) And the plastic spoon sets are very cheap.
    I think I have fixed my leaks :-)

    Your boat is progressing really well - summer launch?

  32. #487
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Hi Neil, thanks for the tips and so glad to hear about the leak fix. I re epoxied today and all went well. I made sure my epoxy was warm enough and used some small clear plastic measuring cups. I made extra sure with my measurements. I hope to launch before fall here, but I’m not going to push it.

  33. #488
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    I have a question for other Ilur builders regarding the cleats that are glued to the top of the centerboard case that hold the bungy cord and the centerboard up and down. When I put the centerboard in place, tied in and made the bungy cord tight, and then held the forward cleat at the plan dimension placement, it didn’t hold the Centerboard fully “up”. I had to move the cleats 45mm further forward to keep the centerboard all the way “up”. Any one have thoughts on this?

  34. #489
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    Mixing really small batches is tricky no matter what (so I usually try to keep some surface that needs to be coated available, so I can mix slightly larger batches and use the excess in the coating), but I’ve found life _much_ easier since switching to a digital scale. I don’t have a fancy one — just a cheap kitchen one, but it’s accurate to 1 gram, which allows pretty small batches (usually I try not to go below about 75g total, but I have at times). The weight ratios are different (e.g., the 2:1 epoxies I’ve used are 100:43, but obviously check yours specifically!). And the upside is that you can use any container (I try to find semi flexible plastic ones, as once the epoxy cures I can usually just crack it out and re-use).

  35. #490
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Hansville

    After a week off I'm ready to get back to boat building. I decided to make a pattern for the mast partner foredeck before working on the rub rail/gunwales. But first I had to fit the fore deck knees. When I first slid the pre cut slot onto the bulkhead it was way off. Of course I had to bevel the sides of the slot so the knee would be parallel with the top of the top strake. But beside that, the face of the knee that would glue to the top strake was over 1/8" away from the strake. Probably because of issues I had with the initial build and having to change the up/down orientation of the bulkhead that the knee fits into meant that the bulkhead needed to be adjusted. Checking to see how far out the bulkhead was in relation to the 2 layers of gunwales I decided to close the gap by shaving off the bulkhead to let the knee move closer to the top strake. Once that was done I made a pattern for the mast partner fore deck. Because my rig is a single Lug, my fore deck is pretty small. I'm not sure yet if I'll make the fore deck one solid piece or into 3 separate pieces with a gap between each piece much like the floor boards and aft deck.
    I'm also wondering how to get it all into place (sliding under the gunwales then fit in the knees, or make it so it can slide in place with the knees installed. I don't know if there is any reason to make this deck removable or just install it permanently? It makes a difference on how its installed.
    I finally got my adjustable rabbet router bit so I set up and routed the notch in the rub rails. It took many passes to cut out the 9 x 17mm notch and lots of chips. After some initial fitting of the rub rail I tapered the bottom side on the bow end following the other Ilur threads from J. Hartman and Wayne. Planing off 1/4" at the bow and tapering it back to zero at about 1.5m back. I have both port and stbd rub rails clamped down to the boat giving the wood time to take a set before I get a chance to glue them down. I can only glue one side at a time because I don't have enough clamps. The temps are still just not quite warm enough to use my System three gel magic in the tube. (the whole reason I bought the tube was for this joint). If I can't glue them on right away I'll see about renting a surface planer to cut down the Alaskan Yellow Cedar for the floor boards.
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