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Thread: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

  1. #1
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    Default New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    This small motor ship has been sailing around in my head for a very long time, and I have finally gotten it all down on paper. Every year when the weather turns, I start thinking about sitting inside a warm pilothouse next to the wood stove, so this is intended as my shoulder-season cruiser.

    The design brief for this craft was for the smallest practical motor yacht that has real cruising comfort in a displacement hull. Twenty-four feet was selected for the length, as it is still possible for regular folks to moor a 24 ft. boat in the Seattle area. As the length grows beyond that dimension, moorage costs start to increase exponentially.

    The vessel is directly inspired by the double ended fishing boats of the PNW. Not all of the boats of this hull form were trollers, they also worked as gillnetters, pot-fishers, and more. They are most famous for trolling for salmon, however, and I have use term “Troller” to describe the boat we see here.



    The ship is divided roughly equally between indoor and outdoor spaces. The large cockpit aft will provide plenty of room for running the fishing lines or crab pots. It will also be a comfortable platform for a set of folding chairs to enjoy a sunset cocktail at anchor. An awning could be set on the boom over the cockpit for additional protection. The cabin will be a comfortable place for a shoulder season cruise along the misty and rainy shores of the PNW’s fjords and inlets. A steady fire burning in the small stove will serve to keep the coffee pot warm as the miles slide by under the keel, the crew content despite the drizzle outside. This type of cruising has great appeal to me, when all the best anchorages are empty and the solitude of nature can be enjoyed without the risk of getting a sunburn.



    An alcohol burning insert can be fitted to the top of the wood stove for cooking during summer when the extra heat of the wood fire would be unwelcome, or better yet, summer cooking could be done on a portable propane stove in the cockpit. A raised dinette in the pilothouse serves as passenger seating while underway and is the primary sheltered lounging area, stowage is located beneath the seats. The helm station will have a small pivoting stool with all controls and instruments right at hand. Full standing headroom is provided in the pilothouse. A small galley flat with sink completes the pilothouse arrangement. Below, a head is placed opposite the stove, privacy afforded by a curtain. Two berths are tucked in forward, with a chain locker beyond them. The berths measure a full 78" long. As you can see, there is perfect comfort for two, any more overnight crew than that would be asking too much.


    Construction is traditional, in keeping with the type. A solid fir backbone anchors the bent oak frames. Planking is cedar carvel. There is nothing overly complicated about the shape, and the hull should plank up with a minimum of fuss. Steam will likely be required on the planking aft. Decks are plywood, in two layers with offset joints. Ply is used to provide stiffness to the deck and eliminate the need for a beam shelf. Fiberglass set in epoxy over the ply makes a long lasting and waterproof deck. The cabin top and pilothouse top are cedar tongue and groove with canvas over. This is a light, economic, and water proof deck construction. Sealed with lagging compound, a canvas cover will withstand the movement of the cedar better than fiberglass and epoxy. The beauty of beveled tongue and groove cannot be beaten for a cozy feel in the cabin. I will paint the staving before it is installed.



    The lines plan shows a hull somewhat adjusted to its intended use as a pleasure boat, rather than the workboats of the past. The working craft required thousands of pounds of fish and ice for stability, and generally use paravanes and batwing keels to damp the rolling. While still a burdensome shape at 6300 lb. displacement, my goal for this hull was for it to have a bit more stability without the heavy load of fish and ice. Stabilizers or paravanes could also be trailed from our boat as the mast is already in place to support outriggers. The plans show concrete ballast poured between the floor timbers. This may cause some consternation among the yachting crowd, but there is hardly a fishboat on this coast that doesn’t have concrete in its bilge, and many of them are still earning a real living nearly 100 years later. Some heavy fasteners partially driven into the floor timbers will lock this ballast in place. This treatment is particularly suited to the Pacific coast, where boats are in the water year-round and not subjected to freeze-thaw cycles in storage ashore.

    This is a displacement hull and will slide along nicely with low power. I will enjoy the economy, low noise, and compact package of the small Yanmar engine. Twenty-nine horsepower should be plenty of muscle for punching into a stiff breeze and chop when necessary.

    I think she will be right at home in any anchorage lined by evergreen trees, the stove ticking pleasantly below while I wait for the fog to lift.
    Last edited by J.Madison; 11-18-2019 at 02:01 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    WOW!

    Love it!

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Nice. Prop aperture looks a bit tight, but that would depend on what power/gearbox you end up using. Clear to see you have spent many, many hours working on this idea. Good bit of draftsmanship. So when do you start making sawdust?

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Nice. Very West Coast in character and reminds me of the old trollers in the SE Alaska troll fleet. My only suggestion would be to stretch it out to 32 feet with the same beam. It'd be much more comfortable on those long lazy cruises up the IP, and much less bobby in short seas. But as is it's a beauty.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Finastkind.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    Nice. Very West Coast in character and reminds me of the old trollers in the SE Alaska troll fleet. My only suggestion would be to stretch it out to 32 feet with the same beam. It'd be much more comfortable on those long lazy cruises up the IP, and much less bobby in short seas. But as is it's a beauty.
    See the OP's 2nd paragraph re length...
    pvg

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    So when do you start making sawdust?
    Not soon. I will finish the Maid first, and before that I have to finish my Ingrid ketch. That is partly why I wanted to get the design down on paper before all my ideas faded away.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    Nice. Very West Coast in character and reminds me of the old trollers in the SE Alaska troll fleet. My only suggestion would be to stretch it out to 32 feet with the same beam. It'd be much more comfortable on those long lazy cruises up the IP, and much less bobby in short seas. But as is it's a beauty.
    You are right on all counts, but 32 won't fit in my current shop, nor could I afford to moor it without selling all my other boats.

    As soon as I finished the design, I started thinking how sweet it would be at 26 ft. Same layout, just more elbow room everywhere.

    2-foot-itis is a real risk!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    A lovely design, Mr. Madison. My only non-complimentary comment - and hopefully both a light touch and about to be proven wrong - is that with the double-ended form and rather slack bilges, she might be a bit tender. Have you done a preliminary initial stability check yet?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Very, very nice. Reminds me of Nordso.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    A lovely design, Mr. Madison. My only non-complimentary comment - and hopefully both a light touch and about to be proven wrong - is that with the double-ended form and rather slack bilges, she might be a bit tender. Have you done a preliminary initial stability check yet?
    I welcome feedback, especially if its gentle.

    I expect she might be a bit tender at first. I did do a rough analysis on the point of vanishing stability to convince myself it was safe, but did not do a full stability curve as I'm working with planimeter and pencil.

    I could probably come up with the moment required for 5 or 10 degrees of heel, but without anything to compare that number to I'm not sure what it would tell me.

    Here are some stats for your gut-feeling calculator.

    Beam 8 ft
    Length 24 ft
    Disp 6300 lb
    Ballast 1600 lb
    Draft 2'7" to deepest point of keel

    Compared to the historical line sets I was inspired by, this hull is shallower and broader, although boats varied so much by builder and time that there is not a very robust catalog for comparison. The original boats are known to roll. They also work offshore in February, and I most certainly will not!
    Last edited by J.Madison; 11-18-2019 at 12:58 PM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Very nice. I am huge fan of trollers having worked on as a young man

    I would put in a composting toilet and delete the holding tank. One of the best things I did was convert to a composting toilet

    The stove could be a cubic mini. I just put one in my boat and I am a huge fan. The stove puts out a tremendous amount of heat for a tiny stove.
    Last edited by Bobcat; 11-18-2019 at 02:07 PM.
    Elect a clown expect a circus

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    It gives me a pleasant tingle to see this boat,hand drawn.
    May we assume ,no computer program?
    The wisp of smoke out the stack is reminiscent of .....Garden?

    b

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Very nice! Obviously you have put a lot of thought into the design so I assume any suggestions may have already been considered and discarded but a few thoughts for what they are worth:

    1. She'd look great with the forward edge of the trunk cabin curved to match the curve of the house, as is typical on the PNW boats. You'd gain some useful headroom over the bunk without losing much foredeck space (which you don't need much of in any case).

    2. I'd also be tempted to move the forward face of the pilothouse forward a bit. I think that the forward seat at the dinette might be too small to be comfortable as it is now.

    3. I see that you have included a holding tank for the head. Preferences may vary here, but given my experience with composting heads over the past year with Skookum Maru I would absolutely recommend going that route instead. Save space, reduce odor, eliminate pump outs. No down side.

    4. I'd also think about making the side decks narrower aft of the pilothouse, and increase the size of the cockpit.


    And you might also look at Blue Star if you haven't already. She's pretty similar:



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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    A fine start!

    The next step might be to work up a curve of areas, longitudinal center of buoyancy, and prismatic coefficient. Unity speed(Speed-Length ratio of 1) for this length is 4.75 knots which will require about 5 HP at the propeller. For that speed the ideal prismatic would be .52 and LCB would be right about midships along the waterline. But you have plenty of power to get up to a speed/length ratio of 1.34 or 6.3 knots. For that the ideal prismatic will be approximately .62 and ideal LCB will be 52-53% of waterline length aft of the stem. I have a feeling you may need to lift the rabbet line a bit aft, more open space around the propeller won't hurt anything.
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    It gives me a pleasant tingle to see this boat,hand drawn.
    May we assume ,no computer program?
    The wisp of smoke out the stack is reminiscent of .....Garden?

    b
    No computer, Garden indeed. I reference Gartside's drawings for his clarity and precision, but Garden has such an easy casualness to his drawings it makes you feel like you are there. Details like smoke wisps, that I would love to emulate.



    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Very nice! Obviously you have put a lot of thought into the design so I assume any suggestions may have already been considered and discarded but a few thoughts for what they are worth:

    1. She'd look great with the forward edge of the trunk cabin curved to match the curve of the house, as is typical on the PNW boats. You'd gain some useful headroom over the bunk without losing much foredeck space (which you don't need much of in any case).

    2. I'd also be tempted to move the forward face of the pilothouse forward a bit. I think that the forward seat at the dinette might be too small to be comfortable as it is now.

    3. I see that you have included a holding tank for the head. Preferences may vary here, but given my experience with composting heads over the past year with Skookum Maru I would absolutely recommend going that route instead. Save space, reduce odor, eliminate pump outs. No down side.

    4. I'd also think about making the side decks narrower aft of the pilothouse, and increase the size of the cockpit.

    I've never had a composting head, but am open to the idea. I might have to shift the forward edge of the pilothouse forward a few inches to get good headroom, but only if a mockup proves its needed. There is about 18" of free width for that seat, which might be enough.

    On a boat this size, it is so easy for the house to get cartoonishly big compared to the hull- which I have tried very hard to avoid even at the expense of some space. A round end to the trunk would be nice, but square is much easier to build. We will see what energy level remains when the time comes. I want to avoid pushing it much farther forward, for aesthetic reasons.

    The wide side decks are intended to give reserve buoyancy, as this is a small boat and dipping the rail a distinct possibility. I could probably open up the aft end of the cockpit a bit where the buoyancy is not needed.

    That is the reason for the self bailing cockpit and side decks, which aren't really normal for the type. It's kind of a sailboat style cockpit, but avoids the common rot issues around exposed frame heads in a more normal drop deck arrangement and gives that extra margin of buoyancy.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    As for the composting head, I have yet to meet anyone who has one that would go back to a holding tank.
    Elect a clown expect a circus

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    A fine start!

    The next step might be to work up a curve of areas, longitudinal center of buoyancy, and prismatic coefficient. Unity speed(Speed-Length ratio of 1) for this length is 4.75 knots which will require about 5 HP at the propeller. For that speed the ideal prismatic would be .52 and LCB would be right about midships along the waterline. But you have plenty of power to get up to a speed/length ratio of 1.34 or 6.3 knots. For that the ideal prismatic will be approximately .62 and ideal LCB will be 52-53% of waterline length aft of the stem. I have a feeling you may need to lift the rabbet line a bit aft, more open space around the propeller won't hurt anything.
    This is good stuff, thanks. It was designed around the prismatic coefficient from the beginning. I will have to check my notes but I believe I chose 0.63.

    Edit: now I'm having a nagging memory that I used .58. I'll have to check. Whatever it was, I'm sure I thought it was smart at the time!

    I have not calculated the LCB, I'm sure its aft of center, but hopefully not by too much!

    Is raising the rabbet aft just for the propellers sake? I'd like to understand how I could have come to that conclusion myself.
    Last edited by J.Madison; 11-18-2019 at 02:51 PM.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Almost everything I know about designing these boats comes from looking at existing boats. In general the horn timber is not too steep, and in gillnetters it approaches horizontal. The big modern trollers do have a steep horn, but older double-enders do not. They are very full above water but extra fine under the waterline.Romancestern.jpg

    36′-West-Coast-Troller-Gillnetter.jpg
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  20. #20

    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    lovely

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Really nice!

    I look forward to hearing about tweaks and refinement and the reasons for them.
    Alex

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Design by Frank Fredette.

    #35a.jpg

    #35b.jpg
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    The more I look at this design, the more I like it

    I love the look of the classic trollers and this design captures it perfectly

    FV Donna 2.jpg
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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Thanks, I've always had a soft spot for these boats too.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Of course, real trollers are deep and too corky, if they're not loaded down with tons of ice.
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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Lovely design brief! The cement in the bilge will be a real help in bringing her down on the proper Waterline, and promote a long life. I have pulled planks off of both commercial and yacht hulls that had a lot of cement in the bilge but revealed no rot in the frames, floors, keel, etc.
    Adding scrap steel can help a little with the density, keying the straight Portland cement with fasteners in the various members also stabilizes things.
    Along with other comments about the horn timber angle and smallish prop opening, I could add that a 4 cylindrical John Deere and a large ratio gear box will produce a slower turning, way more efficient, larger diameter prop. The little Yanmars are fine engines, but higher rpm’s, the small horsepower’s you are mentioning at least do not have inter coolers that need servicing.
    The Deere will be taller, but also heavier, and slower turning, all good things for your lovely hull concept.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    That's beautiful J. Gonna be a project, but one well worth doing. I hope you're a young fella.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    I love the design effort. For Meg, despite her being a well proven LFH, and despite having over sixty five conscious experience with sailboats, I found great comfort in Michael doing the re-engineering and talking me out of my dumber ideas.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Look gorgeous. It appears that you have managed to put a bigger boat interior into a smaller exterior. Will a dinghy fit on the foredeck?
    -Dave

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    I really like your idea......Love those old boats.......You are repurposing an old working boat design. They took that form partially because they needed to be relatively easy to driven with low to medium power. My old converted 32' gill netter had almost 50 HP to drive her about 7 knots. A better match of gear box and shafting and prop probably would get better speed, but not by much.
    If I were using one of these boats for inspiration for a recreational boat, I would think very carefully about how it will be used and where. I would be more conscious about the "people space" The old guys were less interested in comfort, and more interested in fish capacity.
    I really like the Fredette design, though Robert Allen, and Bill Garden were both very credible as well.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Look gorgeous. It appears that you have managed to put a bigger boat interior into a smaller exterior. Will a dinghy fit on the foredeck?
    Oh it will be a cozy interior for sure. I had a 24' sailboat for many years, and had some great times cruising it around, so I have a good feel for the volume I think. A dinghy is a challenge. There is only about 6 clear feet ahead of the cabin, so maybe a 7 ft dinghy could be carried partially up on the cabin trunk but it will block the view. In reality the dinghy will be towed, which allows for a more substantial dinghy than could ever be carried on a 24' boat. A nice heavy peapod would be pleasant to row around the harbor, and would look good trailing astern.

    I've carried an inflatable kayak as a dinghy on my ketch to good effect, so that is another option.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    I love the design effort. For Meg, despite her being a well proven LFH, and despite having over sixty five conscious experience with sailboats, I found great comfort in Michael doing the re-engineering and talking me out of my dumber ideas.
    Thank-you, Ian, but I learned as much from you as you gained from me. It was a grand project to collaborate on. I look forward to the day when you and Meg show up in Yarmouth.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Beautiful boat. Have you estimated the cost to build?

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    As for carrying a dinghy, a lot of trollers had their skiffs on a rack on the boom over the back deck or trolling pit. You can see an example on Donna in photo 23
    Elect a clown expect a circus

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    Default Re: New Design, Double Ended Troller Yacht

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Davis View Post
    Beautiful boat. Have you estimated the cost to build?
    No I haven't. If building for myself, some questions are best left unasked.

    The biggest expense will be in the engine and running gear. I usually buy wood direct from small mills or have my own trees milled up which is very affordable. I might buy a truckload of 2nd quality alaskan yellow cedar out of Tacoma. It's sold for decking/siding and doesn't command anything like boat prices. Yellow cedar is good stuff.

    I'll need a pile of bronze fasteners, but none of them are very big. Workboat finish, minimal bling. I'll cast my own fittings as needed.

    For those recommending a bigger/slower engine- I would love a nice heavy chunk of something slow, but the engine was chosen for its overall size more than anything. Space is very tight, and the bigger the engine, the more it protrudes into the cabin and cockpit.

    Noise is also a concern. I'm a sailor, so an engine I have to yell over is not something I want to sit next to all day. Electric would be ideal on both fronts, but would limit range too much without an auxiliary generator- and that's starting to sound like a lot of money.
    Last edited by J.Madison; 11-19-2019 at 01:18 PM.

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