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Thread: Sooty Tern No. 93

  1. #316
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Yes, folks, it's back to snooze time with the sharpening of the pencils - interesting activity was too good to last but see also last post on previous page)...

    1. I sanded off the worst of the glue blobs on the forward face of the apron, and marked roughly where the sheerline and the aft end of this part fall. I won't do any trimming until the building frame and keelson are set up. I left the glue blobs on the aft face as they act as useful keys back onto the blocks


    Forward face of roughly-sanded apron - pen marks indicate trim points by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. I love 3M blue painter's tape! I used many rolls on the 'Duck build to keep the epoxy glue in its place - and to effect the quick removal of excess glue that I'd missed. It's also very low tack, although this roll might has a higher tack that the previous lot, label says 21 days (previous stuff was 60 days) - but in any case it's coming off way before the 21-day limit!


    Scotch blue painters tape by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. Just the right width!


    Just the right width by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. Coarse side of the long Perma-Grit block used to grind off all the glue blobs. I also finished off with some 60-grit (Wuerth) dry (no nasties) sandpaper. I have about 7 mm of wood (not counting the glue), 3.5 mm on either side, to play with when trimming the on the apron to final 40 mm (1.5") width. I will deal with the glue pad under the apron using the belt sander once I've laminated the stem over it. The forward face is 90 degrees to the board as it stands and I'm not going to fiddle with it until it's safer to do so


    Coarse side of long Perma-Grit block, used to grind off glue blobs by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.

    I'm hoping to get up to the workshop earlier tomorrow, and stay longer, so that I can try completing a few things like the stave cutting and maybe even some frame assembly. My brilliant idea of a clamped fence for trimming the bow ends of the building frame was stymied (also yesterday) by the motor housing of the saw not clearing said fence, so back into the offcuts box to look for a spacer and/or a lower fence that the saw will clear - and/or reduce the depth of cut. This working in two places is starting to become something of a nuisance.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 04-08-2021 at 04:38 AM.
    You can never have too many clamps

  2. #317
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Can't wait to see this build progress!

    FYI, rather than sanding off glue blobs or squeezeout, I find it much more pleasant, easier, and faster to use a heat gun and scraper. Well worth a try--learning that really changed the way I work with glue clean-up.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  3. #318
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Right, well, I've been a busy little quokka, having been able to devote quite a bit of time to the boat over the last week - much more than I was expecting, in fact. I've been dividing my time between the bow stem and the building frame, mostly the building frame. And I have been trying to trim down the silly number of photos taken over that period to to keep posts down to a reasonable number.

    So...

    1. I had a bit of fun trying to get the small green Bosch circular saw to cut square, so used the Makita - which could be adjusted - to redo the cut


    Setting up to cut the bow ends of the main bearers square by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. The Makita cordless saw, having a better blade on it, also made a much nicer cut. Note the piece of polycarbonate sheet used as a fence


    The Makita saw was adjustable to 90°, and had a better sole plate - and blade - so all-in-all a much better cut by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. Here's the sheered coach screw - I was probably too heavy-handed with the fairly aggressive driver.


    Sheered coach screw from the other day by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. Cutting a nominal 4mm stave for the bow stem. The scale on the bandsaw fence is way out as the 4mm thickenesses ended up around three, and the 3mm staves ended up closer to 2mm, which is too thin for this sort of work. I got caught rather unawares


    Cutting a stave for the next round of stem construction - nominally 4mm width by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. I marked the stave numbers this time, as they came off the saw - and before they were cut, towards the end


    Stave orders carefully marked this time by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. Two stacks o' staves


    Two batches of staves (stem laminates). Uncut wood to the right by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    More soon...
    You can never have too many clamps

  4. #319
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    1. Staves shoved in the car to take home


    Staves shoved in the car by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. Back to the building frame: the first of the cross-pieces has been screwed in place, with the 'help' of some corner clamps that weren't quite up to it


    Fiddling around with light-duty angle clamps, trying to install a cross-piece by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. I used some oregon wedges (from scarfing to produce 'Duck spars) to get height of the free ends of the cross-pieces right


    Closeup of wedges by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. Centring the crosspiece on a scribed line which puts it at the right distance away from the station line. I nearly got caught out with the aft stations, which are on the 'other side' as the moulds taper back to the stern - a bit of re-marking required


    Angle clamps to support the screwed end by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. All seven cross-pieces installed on the straighter of the two main bearers


    All seven cross-pieces attached to the straighter bearer by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. They all look as though they are in line with each other...


    The cross-pieces *appear* to be in a straight line - fingers crossed! by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 04-21-2021 at 06:35 AM.
    You can never have too many clamps

  5. #320
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    1. Look what turned up! Remember the new expandable countersink bit that I bought a while ago? I had been rather slack at tidying up, and found it when I went looking for a 4mm bit...


    The missing countersink bit - found with the missing 4mm wood-bit, still in the drill press, tut tut by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. Back on the toolboard. Having two of these is not a problem


    Back on the toolboard! by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. The other main bearer in position, on edge. Note the braces (both ends and station 4) to help keep (some of) the cross-pieces steady when I put the bearer down on them. Being a windy day in autumn, and quite a lot of leaves blew in


    Other main bearer in place, on edge by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. Here's part of the set of rather-too-thin staves clamped onto the apron - that takes the stem up to where it just starts to become obviously wider.


    First set of bow stem staves, dry fitted by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. The thin staves. I've made a bit of space on one of the benches in the shed so that I can add the glue more quickly - I hope!


    Closeup of stem staves - cut a bit too thin by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. Additional staves were added one by one to fill in the expanding part of the stem. I did it like this to save valuable wood


    Adding staves one by one to make up the stem’s outer curve by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.
    You can never have too many clamps

  6. #321
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    1. A dressmaker's tape was used to see how much was needed, and how much wood I could scrabble back from the overhang past the stem's top (plus a bit)


    Dressmaker’s tape measure in use by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. One of my attempts at locking both FP ends of the building frame level with each other. This wasn't the best way of doing this, but it saved mucking about on the floor and fighting with gravity and the feeble (for the purpose) corner clamps. I'd had enough of both of those with the other side, and gravity was in my favour here at least


    An attempt at locking both bearers in relation with each other - not entirely successful by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. There was a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and cursing and swearing trying to get the bow apron support in place at 90 degrees to the bottom bearer. Things would shift at the drop of a hat. It the end it still wasn't quite right but I will allow for that when it comes time to add the apron - it will be less than a millimtere in any case


    Adding the bow-stem support/forward perpendicular - getting the thing at 90° to the bearer by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. All seven cross-pieces attached to the 'top' bearer, plus the bow apron support added


    All seven cross-pieces attached to the ‘top’ bearer by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. Forward perpendicular/bow apron support block installed. There appears to be a bit of a kink at the end of the 'top bearer - that ill have to be allowed for as well


    Bow end of building frame by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. Centreline/forward perpendicular mark on the bow apron support. This will need to be adjusted slightly to account for the apparent bend in the 'top' (port) bearer - the bow apron support was cut to the right length


    Actual forward perpendicular mark drawn on the front of the stem support and continued around it by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.
    You can never have too many clamps

  7. #322
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    1. It all looks reasonable straight


    It looks reasonably straight at a cursory glance by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. On its legs! Well, some of them


    On its legs! by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. A piece of square pine to be used as mould spreaders (I'll get two out of one length), posing on the new building frame


    Length of 42x42mm pine to be used as mould spreader(s), attaches mould to building frame by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. All seven moulds laid out at their stations on the frame. I didn't make much of an attempt to line them up properly: I just wanted to see 'em sitting on the frame!


    All seven moulds laid out at their stations on the frame by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. Moulds as seen from the stern end. The aft perpendicular/stern apron support is seen here resting on the building frame. It will need trimming to fit between the bearers - it slots in level with the top edge of the frame; the centreline will be drawn in after it has been installed


    Moulds seen from the stern end by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. In between breaks on the building frame (it really needed breaks!) I worked on cutting two and assembling one of the two mobile bases for the wood lathe. being able to move that around will help free up some space


    Preparing one of two mobile bases for the wood lathe by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    The building frame was, to my astonishment, quite square and flat; there was one stage where I wanted to give up on building it with the crosspieces. The 1200mm spirit level showed that extent to which the floor isn't level, and I will need to use one or more jacks to raise the lower side and end of the frame before screwing the legs on (at the moment only the bow end legs are actually fastened). I also need to move the frame into its final position before levelling - it is currently too close to the mezzanine supports and the far end of the workshop. Progress, even so.
    You can never have too many clamps

  8. #323
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Good to see the frame up.

  9. #324
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    And soon the boat itself will appear for the first time!
    It is very rewarding to have the molds standing. Suddenly there is a boat, and the real fun begins.
    Ah I remember this very well. I wouldnt go out of the workshop and circled the frame again and again...
    Cheers Max

  10. #325
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    The building frame, the moulds....That's real progress, Alex!
    (And thanks for the quokka lesson.)

    Cheers,
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  11. #326
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Can't wait to see this build progress!

    FYI, rather than sanding off glue blobs or squeezeout, I find it much more pleasant, easier, and faster to use a heat gun and scraper. Well worth a try--learning that really changed the way I work with glue clean-up.

    Tom
    Hello Tom, thank you for your kind words and advice. I have up until now (and I have had quite a bit of experience with epoxy glue) avoided using heat on glue in case of undoing or weakening the joint(s). This is probably silly but I have something of a block there, even though Mr Oughtred recommends it in his book. I should try it out on some scrap bits to see how it works. So far I have been using the aggressive tungsten carbide grains on Perma-Grit tools for removing glue blobs: these tools were in fact invented by a large-scale R/C jet model builder in the UK, for rapid prototyping of fibreglass-epoxy planes. Anyway, I will gingerly experiment with some heat and see what happens - the less dust, the better!


    Quote Originally Posted by Rik van der Vaart View Post
    Good to see the frame up.
    Hello Rick, yes, it was a great relief to see an almost-complete frame in front of my eyes, suddenly!


    Quote Originally Posted by Max F View Post
    And soon the boat itself will appear for the first time!
    It is very rewarding to have the molds standing. Suddenly there is a boat, and the real fun begins.
    Ah I remember this very well. I wouldnt go out of the workshop and circled the frame again and again...
    Cheers Max
    I have to confess that I did more or less the same thing .


    Quote Originally Posted by IanMilne View Post
    The building frame, the moulds....That's real progress, Alex!
    (And thanks for the quokka lesson.)
    Cheers,
    Ian

    Pleasure re the quokkas - endearing wee beasties, but not many left now, sadly... I've got the keelson slots in the moulds to cut out and file to shape - the Perma-Grit tools will be in use here, as they are exceptionally good at very sharp, clean accurate work in plywood.

    Here's a fer-instance: all the slots up front were shaped using coarse and fine Perma-grit files, including the motor mount which was laminated from birch aircraft ply using Bote-Cote. For the curious, the aircraft is a General Aircraft 'Skyfarer, an 'unspinnable' civil aviation plane from the late 1930s


    Front view of the glued mount by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    I've sorted out the staves required for the bow stem, finally. I really have made it hard for myself not noticing the thinness of the staves until way too late (it's also a terrible waste of wood). In an attempt to counter that, I am going to stage the glueing carefully, and have delayed doing it until Friday, where the max and min temperatures will be considerably lower than at present and will allow me wider windows of operation - and I have planned to take as long as is needed so will be starting early. I've also cleared enough bench space to be able to do the priming and glueing standing up


    Staves used to build out the upper part of the bow stem by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    My collection of spare jacks (borrowed from a friend) for levelling the building frame is coming along apace, and I have also found a source of cheap scissor car jacks quite close by. The jacks will be blocked up relatively close to the frame before engaging, to limit the chance of toppling over. The main rate limiting step at the moment - apart from the frame levelling and leg installation - is getting the aprons and stems done and dusted. Lessons learnt from the bow stem and apron will be applied to the stern set, including the cutting up of more staves.
    You can never have too many clamps

  12. #327
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Like WI-Tom, I used a hot air gun and scraper knife to clean up excess glue after it had set. This was only necessary on the inside of the hull after I had finished the planking, where I had not been able to clean each lap completely after putting the plank on, because of the moulds in the way, or if I had not done it. The glue on the surface softens enough to scrape off, well before the glue in the joint is affected. Don't hold the heat on it longer than necessary. As much as possible, I smooth out the glue in the laps as I go, which helps towards the filleting.

    I have seen some of your modelling on your Flickr site. It's highly skilled stuff!

    Cheers,
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  13. #328
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Quote Originally Posted by IanMilne View Post
    Like WI-Tom, I used a hot air gun and scraper knife to clean up excess glue after it had set. This was only necessary on the inside of the hull after I had finished the planking, where I had not been able to clean each lap completely after putting the plank on, because of the moulds in the way, or if I had not done it. The glue on the surface softens enough to scrape off, well before the glue in the joint is affected. Don't hold the heat on it longer than necessary. As much as possible, I smooth out the glue in the laps as I go, which helps towards the filleting.

    I have seen some of your modelling on your Flickr site. It's highly skilled stuff!

    Cheers,
    Ian
    Thanks for your advice too, Ian. I will have a go at it once I've finished the layup and got all the clamps off. As to the models, as is usual with me, all that I can see is the mistakes! And speaking of mistakes:

    Well, you know how I said that I "have a bit of experience with using epoxy glue in my most recent post"? Well, ha ha. What I should have said was "relatively experience" and "at using relatively small quantities of resin over a short period of time". Working with much larger quantities that I had to with the 'Duck (even when making the mast), I have come up against several critical factors: time taken to decant the cool resin with a pump that doesn't return rapidly; Time take to add the glue; and time to clean up. So I have a red face hot enough to cook the eggs that have also landed on it.

    I'm getting over the pump lag by 1. cleaning the outside parts, 2. decanting the resin into numerous pots before starting (the hardener is not a problem here), including for the primer and glue, and 3. putting the container in the sun to warm the resin and pump a bit. The resin will drop back to shed-ambient before I start the glueing process.

    Anyway, just to change direction slightly, I have been working on the Manning benches, which will be useful for the planking (amongst other things), plus gathering together various jacks for levelling the building frame (and making sure that it is FLAT!).

    1. Three newly-purchased scissor jacks - these were supposedly on special, but the price went up by $10 each by the time that I got down to the shop. Oh well


    Three 1000kg scissor jacks purchased by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. Jacks deployed down one side - there is a gap where another one will be slotted in soon. Bottle jacks on t'other side - or whatever combination I come up with in the end


    In place under building frame - five more jacks to track down! by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. Close-up of shiny new jack - on blocks


    One of the jacks close up by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. Group of bottle jacks lent to me by a very kind friend - thanks, Martin A! The stand on the right is far too tall so won't be used


    Bottle jacks borrowed from a friend by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. One pair of legs for the Manning benches roughed out from a view of the drawings on pp. 186-7 of the Fine Woodworking 'The Workbench Book' (Scott Landis, 1998, Taunton Press, 248 pp.), no longer available on the taunton website, sadly. There is another book replacing it The Workbench, by Lon Schleining), but I'm not purchasing that just the see that it probably doesn't have the Manning bench... No table of contents preview, so TTP gets a big black mark and a Fail (F-)


    Two legs for a Manning bench drawn on a piece of pine by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. Various Manning bench parts cut to length - trestle (bench) top and legs to the front, 'anvil' part assembled, to the back. There are other parts to measure and cut as well, including all the square dovetails on the anvil bits, but it's a start. The building frame is currently acting as quite a useful (if low) workbench


    Manning bench ‘anvil’ parts in background by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    Well enough of that, it's back to the bow stem glueing, for my sins, oh dear oh dear...

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    You can never have too many clamps

  14. #329
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Alex, I´m completely away from the metering pumps.
    It takes too much time when I need more than small quantities.
    Instead I have fine digital scales and have the resin and hardener in old detergent bottles (Persil brand in my case) with fancy caps.

    https://flic.kr/p/oW58Na

    (can´t post the picture for a unknown reason...)

    Easy to use, and no drops of resin or hardener will smear on the bottle as they flow back into it.
    I also made a exel sheet with all the ratios from 1 to 100gr hardener, as the ratio per weight is a little away from 5:1

    Cheers Max

  15. #330
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Quote Originally Posted by Max F View Post
    Alex, I´m completely away from the metering pumps.
    It takes too much time when I need more than small quantities.
    Instead I have fine digital scales and have the resin and hardener in old detergent bottles (Persil brand in my case) with fancy caps.

    https://flic.kr/p/oW58Na

    (can´t post the picture for a unknown reason...)

    Easy to use, and no drops of resin or hardener will smear on the bottle as they flow back into it.
    I also made a exel sheet with all the ratios from 1 to 100gr hardener, as the ratio per weight is a little away from 5:1

    Cheers Max
    Hallo Max,

    Great bottle top! Thanks for the idea . You wouldn't get pump nozzle clogging or return spring problems either! The cups that I use have gradations on them - I haven't used them that way so far since I've either used the pumps, or for even smaller amounts, varying sizes of medical syringe. I will scrounge about in the laundry, and see what I can grab .

    Weirdly, that photo's page has only one instead of four sharing options. Odd. Were you logged in to Flickr when you copied the link?

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    You can never have too many clamps

  16. #331
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Stem stuff:

    1. 3M blue painter's tape added to apron 'topside' and forward faces


    Extra blue tape added on top by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. I shifted glueing operations up onto a suitably protected bench top (or part thereof)


    Glueing to be done up off the floor this time by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. I made up a new 'chisel' scraper from a tongue depressor:


    Tongue depressor ‘chisel’ for glue clean-up by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. I decided to glue the stem up in three separate stages, letting one stage set fully before cleaning up and adding the next


    First set of outer bow stem laminations - six. Clamps are, in my opinion after their removal, the wrong way round by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. Stage one complete, and the surplus glue pot is filling up fast!


    The whole setup by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. Top end - so far, so good...


    Top end by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.
    You can never have too many clamps

  17. #332
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    This build is rapidly becoming highly embarrassing.

    1. Here's the cutoff point 'twixt stages 2 and 3: ten staves in no. 2, nine in no. 3. I am beginning to like Max's pourer lid more and more...


    Two more glueing stages decided on by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. I decided to get clever and decant nine very slowly returning pumps of resin into ten pots way ahead of time. Worked a treat


    10 pots, 9 pumps of resin each - setting up for next glueing session by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. Stage two complete, and this is where the wheels really fell off. I didn't do what Mr Zimm suggested above and block the lifting staves back down (largely because of he forest of clamps used on account of the thinness of the staves), and even accounting for the taper in the stem's cross section, there will be a bot of a hole. solution? Fill it with more glue. I am keeping my options open on either redoing the whole stem, or cutting out the couple of raised staves and inserting new ones. I'll make that decision once I've done some proper cleaning up. I have a bit of leeway built in too, since the stave widths are quite a bit more than they needed to be


    Second glueing session complete, except for the cleanup by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. Glueing of stage 3 - and stem - done. The lifted staves from stage 2 are casting a shadow over stage 3 - in more ways than one. The surplus glue pot is now overflowing


    Glueing of stage 3 complete by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. Glue everywhere, of course


    Stage 2/3 interface by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. Top end of the stem


    Top end of completed glue-up by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    Barring having to cut and glue a whole new bow stem - or cut the errant staves out, make good and glue new ones in - that's the bits for the front end of the boat glued up. Next step will be some cleaning up, starting with the apron. And the heat gun and scraper...
    You can never have too many clamps

  18. #333
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hi Alex,
    You don't need to use a heat gun and scraper on this. When the glue has set, plane the upper side flat with your electric planer, but no more than you have to. Then use your thickness planer to bring the whole thing down to its finished width. With the extra width you have left on the staves, I think it will come out just fine. The inner stem is going to be shaped down to take the planking anyway, and the outer stem will be shaped down to a tapered cutwater with just the top end left square.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  19. #334
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    I totally agree with Ian, Alex. Choose the side of stem lamination to rough plane carefully though, the side that needs the least taken off will leave you more on the other side to work with. Don’t worry if you don’t get down to timber on all staves cos you’re going to glue the planks on with goop anyway. Epoxy sticks to itself very well if the keying is rough enough.

    Your main thing to look out for is straightness from one end of stem to the other. Hasten slowly

    P.S. I usually plane one side rough, run it over my jointer to get it straight then run it through the table saw or second the thicknesser.

    A flat sheet of MDF ( ply is not often straight enough) on your building frame will be a good guide for where you need to plane failing no jointer.

    oh. Put every second clamp around the other way so you don’t clash handles.
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 04-19-2021 at 04:09 AM.

  20. #335
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Quote Originally Posted by IanMilne View Post
    Hi Alex,
    You don't need to use a heat gun and scraper on this. When the glue has set, plane the upper side flat with your electric planer, but no more than you have to. Then use your thickness planer to bring the whole thing down to its finished width. With the extra width you have left on the staves, I think it will come out just fine. The inner stem is going to be shaped down to take the planking anyway, and the outer stem will be shaped down to a tapered cutwater with just the top end left square.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    I totally agree with Ian, Alex. Choose the side of stem lamination to rough plane carefully though, the side that needs the least taken off will leave you more on the other side to work with. Don’t worry if you don’t get down to timber on all staves cos you’re going to glue the planks on with goop anyway. Epoxy sticks to itself very well if the keying is rough enough.

    Your main thing to look out for is straightness from one end of stem to the other. Hasten slowly

    P.S. I usually plane one side rough, run it over my jointer to get it straight then run it through the table saw or second the thicknesser.

    A flat sheet of MDF ( ply is not often straight enough) on your building frame will be a good guide for where you need to plane failing no jointer.

    oh. Put every second clamp around the other way so you don’t clash handles.
    Thanks you very much for your advice, Ian and Andrew. Jointer sounds good if I can handle the curvy things ok. Some strategically-placed stands will help there, I think. I’ll see about getting some more 3 mm MDF, despite loathing the stuff. Good point about alternating clamp directions - some were quite hard to tighten up.

    You were right about the thinner staves requiring more glue, Ian - see below. A hard-learned lesson, that. I am going back to my original method of setting the stave widths. I measured the staves cut for the apron - mostly 5 and 6 mm, the last one cut was 4 mm.

    A remnant photo of remnant glue...


    Surplus glue... by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    You can never have too many clamps

  21. #336
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    I don't think you need to buy more 3mm MDF for this purpose, if I may say so. It would be too bendy. The top face of your levelled building frame would do just as well for checking the straightness of your laminated stems, even if it is not a continuous surface. They should be straight anyway, from the laminating bench. Just eyeball along the side of the stem, from one end.
    You get quite good at guessing the amount of glue to mix up, after a while. I use measuring glasses. I'll put a photo of them on here, but not right now.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  22. #337
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Must admit my minds eye was thinking/seeing 16mm MDF but yes the top of building frame is def adequate and it saves having another piece of stuff laying about.

    Is that a whole tub full of epoxy in #335 !!! Mix small batches, there’s not usually that much of a hurry once the goop is spread out on staves. It’ll heat itself up and go off quicker in big lots
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 04-19-2021 at 06:14 PM.

  23. #338
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    Is that a whole tub full of epoxy in #335 !!! Mix small batches, there’s not usually that much of a hurry once the goop is spread out on staves. It’ll heat itself up and go off quicker in big lots
    Judging by the clamps for scale, I think it's a fairly small dish--just squeeze-out from the glue job, maybe? You can see the size better in the 4th and 5th photos in post #331.

    But I know what you mean; from that last picture, I thought I was looking at a 5-gallon pail filled with epoxy for a moment!

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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  24. #339
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Mmmmh ja, I wasn´t logged in.
    So here is the bottle again.
    Best thing ever to dispense epoxi.
    No more sticky bottles.

    Cheers Max

    P1050587 by capitan Max, on Flickr

  25. #340
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Quote Originally Posted by IanMilne View Post
    I don't think you need to buy more 3mm MDF for this purpose, if I may say so. It would be too bendy. The top face of your levelled building frame would do just as well for checking the straightness of your laminated stems, even if it is not a continuous surface. They should be straight anyway, from the laminating bench. Just eyeball along the side of the stem, from one end.
    You get quite good at guessing the amount of glue to mix up, after a while. I use measuring glasses. I'll put a photo of them on here, but not right now.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Thanks for the advice, Ian. I'm hoping that the rest of the jacks appear midweek courtesy of our friend, and am planning on checking the building frame on Thursday. Or Friday,. Or Saturday...soon-ish, anyway. I wasn't bad at getting mixture sizes right by the end of the 'Duck - but this wee beastie is a different bucket o' snakes entirely!


    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    Must admit my minds eye was thinking/seeing 16mm MDF but yes the top of building frame is def adequate and it saves having another piece of stuff laying about.

    Is that a whole tub full of epoxy in #335 !!! Mix small batches, there’s not usually that much of a hurry once the goop is spread out on staves. It’ll heat itself up and go off quicker in big lots
    Ah ha, no, ha ha ha ha! It's scrapings-off of squeezeout over the apron-stem buildup. 730-odd ml (bit over a pint) thereof!


    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Judging by the clamps for scale, I think it's a fairly small dish--just squeeze-out from the glue job, maybe? You can see the size better in the 4th and 5th photos in post #331.

    But I know what you mean; from that last picture, I thought I was looking at a 5-gallon pail filled with epoxy for a moment!

    Tom
    See above! Not 5 gallons o' glue!

    Quote Originally Posted by Max F View Post
    Mmmmh ja, I wasn´t logged in.
    So here is the bottle again.
    Best thing ever to dispense epoxi.
    No more sticky bottles.

    Cheers Max
    That'll do it! Thanks for the picture! The closest thing in the laundry won't come out of the bottle, so I will have to look a bit harder when at the supermarket.

    1. I got the clamps off the 3rd stage of the stem layup before lunch:


    Clamps off... by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. Glue everywhere, again... Nice fractal sort of pattern though


    Glue everywhere by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. These holes were a bit alarming at first sight


    Holes not quite as bad as the look - disappeared after belt sanding by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. The hand planer did not like being made to cut the glue, so I switched to the belt sander (coarse-ish belt)


    I had a go at the ‘top’ with the hand planer, which didn’t like it at all by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. Holes revisited


    ‘Holes’ revisited - they will vanish once the thing it brought down square with the inner face by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. I have been checking the flatness of the part using the handy straight-edge on the 1200 mm spirit level. It's not too bad except at the top end - where I haven't taken much off yet. I took pity on the sander and my ears (the ear muffs are up at the other workshop)


    The ‘underside’ after a bit a go with the belt sander by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.

    I also stopped before I went too far, and did some checkingwith the engineer's square - not too bad for the most part, but room ro improvement - which will come in the for of the jointer (I hope) on the weekend.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 04-21-2021 at 06:44 AM.
    You can never have too many clamps

  26. #341
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    1. Here's a more 'normal' view of the stem - vertical, as it will appear in the boat


    Bow apron and stem by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. From the front (almost)


    Apron and stem again by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. I did a bit more material removal from the lumpy side of the stem today - I got out the Rotex - which is hooked up to the vacuum cleaner:


    Apron and stem again by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. It was good not to have dust going everywhere, even after ten minutes of thrashing the sander.Still a bit of a way to go on this side, however...


    Ten minutes’ worth of grinding with a coarse pad by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. Our friend dropped off the bottle jacks today, nearly there with that


    Bottle jacks ready to go (and a stand) by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    I'm hoping to get up to the workshop tomorrow, but I suspect that other things are going to get in the way. Fingers crossed, though.

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    You can never have too many clamps

  27. #342
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Today got tied up with orchestral library duties plus domestic shopping. As I had to go a bit further up the Mountains to drop off some music, by the time that I got to the workshop there wasn't any opportunity other than to offload some stuff.

    1. A brief fifteen minutes allowed be to pop the borrowed jacks under the frame - alternating scissors with bottles


    Four jacks on one side by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. I bought a fourth scissor jack this morning, see if you can spot it, ha ha...


    Four jacks on the other by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. I managed to squeeze in about half an hour of sanding on the stem. Once I noticed some wobbles I stopped for the day


    Overview of glue removal on the ‘bottom’ (port) side by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. I'm getting things almost to the stage of running through the thicknesser and/or jointer...


    More sanding by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. A way to go yet on the port side though


    Still a way to go on this side by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. The starboard side is looking a bit better (but has a few dips which I have since marked


    Got a bit further with this end by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.

    I'm having a bit of a rest from the sanding for a bit while I work out the best was to proceed - planer, belt sander, thicknesser of jointer, or a combination of the above. The dips worried me a bit - while not excessive, I need to be more careful and switch from the small rotary sander, I think. I can get on with the building frame, in any case, which is probably more important at the moment.
    You can never have too many clamps

  28. #343
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    I'm a little confused by the jacks,are they used so that you can cut solid props to match the height to which the frame has been adjusted?

  29. #344
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I'm a little confused by the jacks,are they used so that you can cut solid props to match the height to which the frame has been adjusted?
    Hello John, you have got it exactly right - the jacks are temporary supports while I get the thing levelled, and will be removed after all ten legs are fastened in place. The legs were previously cut to length, before I got some very useful advice from Andrew Donald.

    1. Success! and it was extremely quick!


    Levelled! It only took five minutes! by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2.
    Very simple, very quick! by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. The reference corner was at the known high point (port bow)


    Reference corner (high point, at port bow) by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. You can see that the starboard bow corner has had to be cranked up a bit


    Starboard bow corner - raised a bit by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. Starboard stern corner up a bit, but not as much as up at the bow


    Starboard stern corner leg attached - frame also quite a bit higher here by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. Port stern corner up a bit too


    Port stern corner by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.

    TBC...
    You can never have too many clamps

  30. #345
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    1. Port stern leg in place - and all the bits and pieces used. Not the (now rather short) piece of chalk, used to mark around the legs so that I can tell if the frame has moved at all


    Port stern leg fixed by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. I am indebted to Andrew Donald for suggesting this way of sorting out the frame and legs - look at this gap! That would have been a nightmare to fix with my original idea of chocking up the legs with bits and pieces


    Starboard midships leg - look at the gap! by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. Done! I still can't believe how quick and efficient that all was!


    All ten legs on and jacks removed. Chalk outlines around to feet by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. I marked out the slot for the bow apron in the support beam using a marking knife - I took the measurements of the intersection of the forward perpendicular and the the line showing the top of the building frame from lofting/laminating board at home earlier. The slope of the bow at this point is quite different from that of the Arctic Tern (see photo 6 below)


    Apron cutout marked - quite different from the Arctic Tern by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. Overview of the marked-out bow apron slot in the apron's support beam


    Overview of the bow apron slot by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.




    6. In this little snippet from the AT stems plan, you can infer how different the ST's bow rake is when compared with photo 4


    The Arctic Tern’s bow apron frame-support cutout is very different in shape to that of the Sooty’s by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.

    TBC...
    Last edited by Alex1N; 04-23-2021 at 05:08 AM.
    You can never have too many clamps

  31. #346
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Last of today's posts:

    1. I celebrated my wonderful success with the building frame (I love it when things go right!) I flipped over the apron to work on the flat(-ish) glue surface, and had a go at it with the hand planer. That went much better than expected (see comment at bottom of post)! The apron is much more important than the stem at the moment, since it is a structural part and the setting up of the keelson, and the actual planking, can't proceed with out it - or rather, them. I can't do the aft apron until I've got the bow apron trimmed, some important things marked on it, and battened to keep it's proper shape. Once those are out of the way, I can re-tape and reposition the laminating blocks and proceed with that one.


    Hand planer on the apron glue layer by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. The planer worked well, but I stopped for the evening before I got a barrage of irate screams from upset neighbours!


    Closer up in the apron glue removal by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. Some of the staves are starting to rise up here (the ones still embedded in the glue). The final thickness is 38 mm, so it probably won't be a problem - the thickness before I started planing was around 45 mm


    Another and more uneven portion of the apron by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.

    My earlier and aborted attempt with the hand planer was on the much more lumpy 'top' surface of the stem part - and the glue had barely set, too. The epoxy on the apron is a lot older than that on the stem, and had gone off properly: the planer was much happier with it.

    The only thing that I don't like abut the planer at the moment is the non-(European)-standard dust extraction port, as I can't fit the vacuum cleaner's hose onto it. I'm going to have to get a bit of flexible tubing, some 25 mm PVC pipe and some hose-clamps to sort that out. The planer has a dust bag, but it is only a passive for of dust and chip removal, not an active one like a vacuum.

    While up at the 'boat shed' today, I noticed that the remaining piece of oregon from the board that I've been using for the stems is quite bent in two dimensions. That goes some way towards explaining the 'lifting' of staves in the glue-ups (but is by no means the only reason). I am going to have to exert extra care both in cutting and clamping.

    I'm not really grumbling (much, ha ha) - I'm happy that I've got the building frame structure sorted out; the only thing that remains is to inset the aft stern apron support beam in place on the aft perpendicular marks on the main bearers. I've done some preliminary hand-sawing on the vertical pencil marks, and will deal with the rest of the procedure when I'm up there next (some time next week).

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 04-23-2021 at 05:16 AM.
    You can never have too many clamps

  32. #347
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    OK, who’s spotted the Terrible Mistake(TM)?

    I was drifting off to sleep last night when I suddenly realised that I had got the bow apron support beam wrong, wrong, wrong!. The moulds plan shows the support beam under the main bearers (as I have it), but the stems plan has it level with the top of the main bearers. So this morning I did some actual checking...

    1. I had intended to add an extension using biscuits per the sketch - but for some weird reason got confused by the stems plan and decided that it wasn’t necessary. Well, it isn’t necessary if and only if the beam is at the higher position


    FP/BF/apron support from plans by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. The bow apron lofting with the bearer hurriedly sketched in under the plastic sheet


    As lofted... by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. Rough sketch of apron extension on the lofting board


    Sketch of sketch on plans by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. More accurate apron path drawn in on the plastic sheet


    Extended beam and more accurate (excess) apron path by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. Actual apron path


    Actual apron path by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. Extension piece clamped in place for effect this arvo


    Extension piece for the apron support beam by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.

    A bit of a niggle but nothing that isn’t esily fixed (and I had set up the Triton to do just that).

    I had some fun with the apron and the jointer this arvo, of which more in a little bit.
    Last edited by Alex1N; 04-24-2021 at 07:53 AM.
    You can never have too many clamps

  33. #348
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Here's rest of this afternoon's activity:

    1. I took the apron up to the workshop to clean up the rest of the glue using the jointer - and possibly the thicknesser...


    I got the bow apron in the other car without any trouble by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. Fitted in a treat!


    Here’s the other end, snug as a bug in a rug by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    3. The apron - with its very long tail - was quite diffcult to managed on account of its centre of mass doing tricky things. Setting up support stands was not picnic, either:


    Set-up for getting rid of the last of the glue from the ‘bottom’ of the apron by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    4. Cleaned up after several passes


    url=https://flic.kr/p/2kUCvjE]Cleaned up[/url] by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    5. Closer view of the 'bottom' of the apron.

    Cleaned up by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    6. And another bit. Looks nice, but...


    Segment of apron by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.

    Unfortunately, in the process of jointing the apron - and yes, I did make sure that the fence was square with the table - I managed to introduce a slight tilt into the object by leaning too hard on one side of it. Luckily, even though I'm not down to 48-odd mm thickness, I have another 10 mm in hand. That could evaporate in the blink of an eye, of course - and some will be needed to square that thing back up again. If anyone has any bright ideas about how to fix this, please let me know: I'm scratching my head a bit about how to back out of this.
    You can never have too many clamps

  34. #349
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    I abandoned running the apron through the thickness as the stand set-up was too trick with the very long tail - and just as well, considering the lean that I had contrived to produce. I've had a good look at where the apron is supposed to end (up against the mast box) so I will chop it there plus a little bit once I've confirmed exactly where the forward face of the box is.

    1. I attached the stern end of the building frame with the little Makita cordless saw to start the installation of the aft perpendicular/stern apron beam. This, by the way, is in the same spot on both the moulds and stems plans, so no having to jiggle things about as I will need to do up front


    Quick and dirty method of stock removal part 1 by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.


    2. All the narrow bits broke off and a bit of grinding done with the long Perma-Grit block. Note that I contrived to saw in the wrong spot and nuked to carefully-marked aft perpendicular mark: I was too tired by then, and stopped, packed up and went home


    Quick and dirty method of stock removal part 2 by Alexander Newman, on Flickr.

    I'll deal with the remaining sticking-up bits in the AP beam's slot with a chisel at some point - all the chisels were at home (waiting to be sharpened) so that's a job for another day. The loss of the AP lines isn't much of a drama as the aft face of the beam can be measured off station 7 and clamped in place before screwing it down.

    I've had enough for today, and no work on the boat tomorrow. If anyone has a useful suggestion regarding the apron tilt, please don't hesitate to mention it!

    Cheers,
    Alex.
    You can never have too many clamps

  35. #350
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    Default Re: Sooty Tern No. 93

    Hi Alex,
    If the cross-section of your stem/apron (inner stem) is slightly off square, don't forget it still has to be bevelled to take the planking, so any off-squareness in the outer part of it can be taken out at that stage, and the shape of the inner part (inside the planking) doesn't matter.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

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