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Thread: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

  1. #1
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    Default using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    I had a wild thought last night that I cannot shake. I am contemplating laminating raw(real wood) veneer into just under 1/8 inch thick and once trimmed use a planking material for a sailboat I want to build. I am planning on cold-molding with a layer fore and aft, a layer at 45, a layer perpendicular, and a final layer running fore and aft.
    Time is not a big factor and if I can get this to work, I will save on waste and can get okume and other species.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Why not simply buy thicker veneer? Sliced veneer is availble in up to 4mm, standard thicknesses are 1.5mm and 2.5mm.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    you mean cold mold individual planks ?
    sure...free ya mind

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    4 layers of 3mm Occume for a total of 12 veneers thick will give you a good stiff and stable panel alright. Lay them up at the right angles and you can use mostly 4 and 8 foot pieces with very little waste and most likely a considerable savings in time and money.

    https://www.westwindhardwood.com/pro...od/fsc-occume/

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    But the shipping cost? I will check. Thanks.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    If your sawing out your own veneers for cold molding you will probably do better to saw out thicknesses to net either 2 layers plus a layer of glass on the outside or between the layers or 3 layers without the glass. Sawing out veneers is profoundly wasteful.

    I like the idea of producing my own planking stock of 3 parallel layers with lightweight glass between the layers and using it for glued lap. I made up a sample once and it was very tough stuff. If I remember correctly it was more than twice the strength and stiffness of the same thickness and width from the same stock.

    More info would be helpful.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesmatt1957 View Post
    But the shipping cost? I will check. Thanks.
    Someone here will know of a source closer to home.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    I haven't located a source that sells 4mm that is solid wood. I haven't looked lately either.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    If that's what you want look for beams and saw out your own using a thin kerf skilly blade on the table saw. 4 X 4 would work for that, depending on what hull your proposing to build.

    I like dreamers, I've been one for all of my life. I think most of us here are dreamers, we dream of having a boat then dream up ways of building it.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    You can probably get 4 layers of 4mm after running thru a thickness palner from full 1 inch. That's easier to find clear or STK (select tight knot) than 4 X 4 clear or STK. 4 X 4 will net less sawdust.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Wow, so you layered the wood veneer with glass in between the wood? I remember Louie Sauzedde laminating carbon fiber on the keel of his sport dory. I am planning on making a Haven 12.5. I am located in the midwest. The boat will be trailered. I just feel better about glassing inside and out. I have read the Gougeon book and the Ashford book. I have been making/repairing furniture for 40 years. My experiments making my own 1/8 stock have me thinking the waste and time isn't worth it.I would have to run the strips through my thickness sander after planing to get them less than 1/8.I have smaller pieces to play with that hopefully won't need conditioning, to experiment with. I want the strips to be sturdy enough to staple together. Got the raptor system for fastening the outer strips.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    I just bought some 4x4 douglas fir for this reason. The pieces I cut were as close to CVG as I could get. They seemed a little stiff to bend as far as I think I need. I should get the plans and make a mock up to test. I may have a source of air dried spruce and ash. He is out deer hunting.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    I am in Omaha. Found a place in K.C. but they want me to buy an entire "unit" of the 1/8 inch okume. Not going to happen.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Fir steams OK, not great but OK, so you can steam up a few at a time and pre-bend them either on a form or on the hull itself with temporary staples. That will season them at the same time. Works well.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    take a look at this company ,they are making this product http://www.vendia.fi/products
    laminated pine planking

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    Default

    I have laminated thin stock to make oar blades, that worked. What glue would you use? If epoxy, that might get expensive. Other glues would need high clamping pressure along the whole plank, or vacuum bagging, I would think.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Exactly.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    I have been wanting a vacuum bag system for some time. Looking at Ultra-cat PPR veneer glue. Veneersupplies.com

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    sexy-beast01.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    Fir steams OK, not great but OK, so you can steam up a few at a time and pre-bend them either on a form or on the hull itself with temporary staples. That will season them at the same time. Works well.
    I have had zero luck steaming kiln dried lumber. Hoping one supplier has some air dried spruce. I am planning to pre-bend some Douglas fir. I had some air-dried Ash, used it up on this project.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Thanks. I will check it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by wood1 View Post
    take a look at this company ,they are making this product http://www.vendia.fi/products
    laminated pine planking

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    You may soon learn that all your cabinetmaking and house carpentry experience is almost worthless in boatbuilding.
    The fastest way to slow down a boat job is to have a house carpenter helping.
    That said... I'm a crappy house carpenter.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    You may soon learn that all your cabinetmaking and house carpentry experience is almost worthless in boatbuilding.
    The fastest way to slow down a boat job is to have a house carpenter helping.
    That said... I'm a crappy house carpenter.
    but a hell of a floor finisher.....

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    Default using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesmatt1957 View Post
    I have been wanting a vacuum bag system for some time. Looking at Ultra-cat PPR veneer glue. Veneersupplies.com

    Ultra-cat is a type II glue. It is not waterproof. And you will likely have to vacuum bag to get even clamping pressure.
    I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish by laminating planks from veneer. It sounds like an enormously expensive and labor intensive process.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Tom Wilkinson; 11-17-2020 at 11:24 AM.
    Tom

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Do you plan to dry sail the boat? If so you may prefer a seamless construction method like cold molding or strip built. If you plan to keep the boat in the water, a traditional carvel plank on frame construction would also work. It sounds like you want to make planks for an otherwise carvel construction out of laminated stuff, but then the planks won’t swell the boat tight, which is an essential aspect of the strength and watertightness of the hull structure in a carvel boat.

    You may also go right thru a veneer when backing out the planks at the turn of the bilge or when fairing the outside of the hull.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish by laminating planks from veneer. It sounds like an enormously expensive and labor intensive process.
    I'm with Tom on this one. Sounds like a lot of effort and glue going towards re-inventing a wheel.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    I've reread your OP several times and still can't quite understand what you want to do. Are you going to buy 1/8" veneers and use them to cold mold? Or are you going to buy planks of lumber, resaw them into 1/8" veneers (although at 1/8 they really act as boards not veneer) then cold mold the boat? Or is it something else?

    No one else has said it but ocume really isn't a very rot resistant wood for boats.

    Since you are wanting a Haven you might just consider building the Somes Sound designed by John Brooks. It's glued lap ply... very dry sailing compliant.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    On any given curved lamination there's an optimum number of plies that gives the desired result without springback. Using more, thinner plies becomes wasteful of lumber, glue and labor without giving any advantage in terms of strength. The lamination becomes heavier the more glue lines are added. If that's not enough, thinner plies need a better form and more clamps to apply an even pressure to keep the glue lines consistent throughout.

    Jim

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Yes, yes, and yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    On any given curved lamination there's an optimum number of plies that gives the desired result without springback. Using more, thinner plies becomes wasteful of lumber, glue and labor without giving any advantage in terms of strength. The lamination becomes heavier the more glue lines are added. If that's not enough, thinner plies need a better form and more clamps to apply an even pressure to keep the glue lines consistent throughout.

    Jim

  29. #29
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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    My initial thought was why buy wood that will be wasted when I resaw it to 1/8th. If I can laminate raw veneer, than why not. This will be a years long project and my estimates on the planking that will be required would take me a couple of weeks of labor. This is all talk right now. Good to know about Okume, thanks. I do realize that the wood is just filler for the fiberglass and epoxy.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    I've reread your OP several times and still can't quite understand what you want to do. Are you going to buy 1/8" veneers and use them to cold mold? Or are you going to buy planks of lumber, resaw them into 1/8" veneers (although at 1/8 they really act as boards not veneer) then cold mold the boat? Or is it something else?

    No one else has said it but ocume really isn't a very rot resistant wood for boats.

    Since you are wanting a Haven you might just consider building the Somes Sound designed by John Brooks. It's glued lap ply... very dry sailing compliant.

    Jeff

  30. #30
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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    What's your opinion of using titebond 3?

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    I have laminated some planks out of 1/8" western red cedar with a ply of 300 g/m^2 +/- 45 flax fiber and epoxy in between the plies. This is for garboards and other places where relatively thin white cedar planks have been known to split. I figure the flax will provide cross grain toughness and more or less behave itself with the cedar as they are both cellulose. I did a similar thing with 80 g/m^2 carbon fiber for the wash box of a single I was rebuilding. Made a nice bit if useful stuff.
    SHC

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Flax fiber is new to me. Had to google it. So uo have had luck with a material product between the wooden planks?
    Quote Originally Posted by SHClark View Post
    I have laminated some planks out of 1/8" western red cedar with a ply of 300 g/m^2 +/- 45 flax fiber and epoxy in between the plies. This is for garboards and other places where relatively thin white cedar planks have been known to split. I figure the flax will provide cross grain toughness and more or less behave itself with the cedar as they are both cellulose. I did a similar thing with 80 g/m^2 carbon fiber for the wash box of a single I was rebuilding. Made a nice bit if useful stuff.
    SHC

  33. #33
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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    If drysailing is the same as trailering after each time it is in the water, than yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by nrs5000 View Post
    Do you plan to dry sail the boat? If so you may prefer a seamless construction method like cold molding or strip built. If you plan to keep the boat in the water, a traditional carvel plank on frame construction would also work. It sounds like you want to make planks for an otherwise carvel construction out of laminated stuff, but then the planks won’t swell the boat tight, which is an essential aspect of the strength and watertightness of the hull structure in a carvel boat.

    You may also go right thru a veneer when backing out the planks at the turn of the bilge or when fairing the outside of the hull.

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    You would be money ahead to spend the money on a good old industrial bandsaw, phase converter, and a quality resawing blade. You can get a lot of planking from an 8/4 board with minimal waste and the saw setup will pay for itself quickly. Nice color and book matched At a fraction of the cost and labor, even after investing 750-1000 in the saw setup, and that’s a realistic number for the machine if you look around. The most expensive part of my setup was the blade for a 32” saw.
    Tom

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    Default Re: using laminated raw veneer to make planks crazy yes, why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesmatt1957 View Post
    I just feel better about glassing inside and out.
    Quote Originally Posted by jonesmatt1957 View Post
    I do realize that the wood is just filler for the fiberglass and epoxy.
    Cold molding is a complete waste for your plans, go with strip planking.

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