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Thread: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    So ... 13'6 for the HV16 waterline? Though, I wonder if your waterline is greater when heeled?

    Big Food's stems are pretty much plumb. I only lose six inches on either end. Or do I lose nine inches on each end. Hmmm. Maybe it is nine.
    Heavily loaded I'll say . . . 14ish. Definitely a few inches less for a Sunday row with nothing in the boat. Interesting question, how shape and length change when heeling. The design of the 13 was developed with heeled waterlines.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Heeled waterlines=diagonals, no?
    Gerard>
    Langley, WA

    Don't believe Republican lies.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Ah, we've taken a much needed break and I was going to get all serious again . . .
    Damn the torpedoes.

    By some measures Bandwagon is the smallest boat, maybe with the least depth, or freeboard, of the bunch. Of course there is real estate, and then there is real estate.

    On moorings, Sanford Island, with sleeping shelter

    Transom stern of course. And compared to many Whitehall models the 16 is proportionally broader and fuller, particularly aft. Turns out his makes for a pretty cozy sleeping nest.

    Looking forward


    I lay in a gentle comfortable arc across the aft floorboard panels with my feet along the centerboard trunk. The primary thwarts remain untouched, one drop-in panel is shifted. A double ender of the same length does not have this kind of volume aft. Even on a boat as big as Rowan, James engineered a folding thwart to accomodate a berth on the floors. He is very happy with the arrangement. Structural considerations of the four boats are all a little different. Both Alex and Tim have used sleeping platforms on top of the thwarts, Tim might be thinking about slicing and dicing Big Food for a berth. I am thrilled not to have to chop the main thwartship girder of my boat in half for a good rest.

    As a beta tarp shelter I'm about 90% there. A good sleep when not concerned about grounding out . . .

    Our erstwhile companion Chris had a Wellsford transom stern design. With an offset trunk
    he's got a big ole sleeping area right in the middle of the boat. Chris seemed to prefer sleeping on his boat in quiet little anchorages.

    Fewer bugs, away from the 'crowds' hanging out on the boat, I like the gentle motion and the murmuring of a lapstrake hull. That said, campsites in the broken group are awesome.

    A couple of seasons back Tim and I spent five days cruising the San Juans, sleeping on our boats, it was great. Did that get James thinking?

    5 lb danforth. I had a couple of near disasters with lightweight bruce anchors. Bandwagon is not a heavy boat.

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Heeled waterlines=diagonals, no?
    Well, yes and no.

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Sleeping on a little boat is fantastic. And it's true, I am thinking about hinging the main rowing thwart on Big Food. Or, as winter approaches, just going ahead and building a bigger boat for bigger adventures. (A locally-designed HV19 would be nice, if such a beast existed.) I'll probably just hinge the thwart, though. I have a canoe in progress, a kayak kit in the queue, and a lot more sailing to do this summer. Plenty to do already.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Has Eric's boat always been named 'Bandwagon' or did he re-christen it after adopting the lug rig?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Eric named his boat on our last trip to Clark Island, just north of Orcas. That was a month or so ago. I think he just woke up with the name in his head. He was very pleased with himself at breakfast, having finally named his boat.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Alex, does the mizzen mast get in the way while sailing since it is just forward of where the helmsman would sit?
    Don, feel free to offer your comments also.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    Alex, does the mizzen mast get in the way while sailing since it is just forward of where the helmsman would sit?
    Don, feel free to offer your comments also.
    No, it's far enough forward that there is a comfortable "cockpit" area to steer from just aft. One of my favourite steering positions is slouched on the planking on the high side just forward of the stern bench with my feet up on the stern thwart opposite. Gets the weight low, offers a good view forward and gives ready access to the tiller and the mainsheet. In very light airs, I do the same but sitting on the lee side - it sags some shape into the sail.

    When sitting up on the stern bench I do have to duck as the mizzen swings across when tacking or gybing, but a shorter person might not have to (I'm 6'1").
    Alex

    "The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore.
    - Vincent van Gogh

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  10. #115
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbinskate View Post
    Excellent info- thanks. What sort of anchor are you using? Weight?

    -Bruce
    10 lb Danforth with about 20' of chain before the rope anchor line. I also have a little 1 kg Bruce with chain and line (don't recall how much offhand) stowed in a bag as an emergency backup anchor or a second anchor should I need it. I actually bought it as my primary anchor then later decided it wasn't big enough, even though I hadn't dragged with it.
    Alex

    "The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore.
    - Vincent van Gogh

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Kurylko View Post
    Alaska, slight correction: beam 4' 61/2"; waterline length approx. 17' depending on load.
    Thanks Don. My memory isn't what it used to be. Then again, my memory isn't what it used to be
    Alex

    "The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore.
    - Vincent van Gogh

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Great story, thanks for sharing!

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    Alex, does the mizzen mast get in the way while sailing since it is just forward of where the helmsman would sit?
    Don, feel free to offer your comments also.
    I think Alex has it pretty much covered, but if there is anything specific about the design that you or anyone else would like to know, I would be more than happy to try and answer.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Having just got back from my first trip to Grand Manan island, I feel a certain urgency to build one of these damned sail-and-oar beauties. The various little bits of the Fundy Isles look every bit as gorgeous as the Broken Group, though the tides are a few times higher (and lower). I spent three glorious hours this morning in a sea kayak with my youngest paddling 'round the Swallow Tail lighthouse, and each of us were grousing about how much more fun it would have been in any one of the boats in this thread.

    BTW, here's a picture of the lighthouse, from the website of the guys renting the kayaks.

    Bravo again!

    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    What I'd love, of course, is a brief description of how the relative sailing, sea-handling, and rowing performance stacked up. We've seen this among Rowan, Big Food and Bandwagon on another thread - wondering how Hornpipe compares, and whether use in this environment showed any fresh wrinkles...

    I mean, you guys are our test-bed for sail 'n oar recreational designs ...
    I'd like for you guys to expand on this a little and talk about the strengths of your boats in rough conditions. You know too much wind, too much sea, maybe you did something stupid and got caught out in those big tidal currents y'all go on about, etc etc. . .

    Which boat do you want to be in when the **** really hits the fan?

    What if you needed to rescue somebody? What if you needed to rescue yourself? Is your boat swampable? Will it turn rightside up if you were to get knockeddown? Do you guys wear harnesses either alone or together? Dry suits?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  16. #121
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    It ain't the boat, it's the skipper, Paul. They all do the job. Usually, I get in trouble when I did not prepare properly (ie. check the wind and tides). Otherwise, I'm usually surprised at the way it happens. As in, "I never even considered THAT."
    Waves breaking over both rails at the same time would be a good example.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  17. #122
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Which boat under rough conditions. . . .?

    Well, as for me Paul, if I found out there was a better sail and oar boat for me out there, I would sell Rowan and build it. I really would. I'm not really a very sentimental guy. Remember, Rowan is the 42nd out of 56 boats that I've built. I've dropkicked most of the other ones with nary a qualm. . .and yet Rowan's still the only one I'm totally satisfied with. And I've got the means, the shop, and the understanding wife on hand for me to have any small boat I want.

    But it turns out I already have it.

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    That last post was courtesy of the James McMullen Automated Posting Service.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  19. #124
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    How big a boat do you want?

  20. #125
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Geeze, that James guy is like a broken record, ain't he?

  21. #126
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    He should row more.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  22. #127
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Cochise,

    Boat strong

    Stupid?

    Never

    Mmm big whirlpools spieden bad

    Freight train

    Hang on

  23. #128
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    One of my favourite steering positions is slouched on the planking on the high side just forward of the stern bench with my feet up on the stern thwart opposite. Gets the weight low, offers a good view forward and gives ready access to the tiller and the mainsheet. In very light airs, I do the same but sitting on the lee side - it sags some shape into the sail.
    Alex,

    I'm curious--it looks like the pin rail would dig into your back or side very uncomfortably in this position--does it? Aren't you leaned up against it when you sit like this? Are you facing more forward or sideways when you sit like this? (I haven't sat in my boat yet to test it out, but soon...)

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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  24. #129
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Alex,

    I'm curious--it looks like the pin rail would dig into your back or side very uncomfortably in this position--does it? Aren't you leaned up against it when you sit like this? Are you facing more forward or sideways when you sit like this? (I haven't sat in my boat yet to test it out, but soon...)

    Tom
    Tom,

    The pin rail doesn't particularly dig in. I'm usually sitting more forward looking than side looking, so, if anything, the stern bench would dig in. However, my lifejacket (which I always wear) provides upper back padding, and I have a small foam seating pad for sitting on while steering or rowing, that I shift to soften awkward corners when sitting there for any length of time.

    I don't yet have a padding solution for sitting perched up on the rail when hiked out to windward. My butt isn't padded particularly well and the longer I am hiked out, the narrower the rail seems. Maybe some sort of temporary or foldable rail seat at about the rear thwart - I have to put some thought into it.
    Alex

    "The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore.
    - Vincent van Gogh

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    For hiking out ... what about bike shorts?
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  26. #131
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    I'd like for you guys to expand on this a little and talk about the strengths of your boats in rough conditions. You know too much wind, too much sea, maybe you did something stupid and got caught out in those big tidal currents y'all go on about, etc etc. . .

    Which boat do you want to be in when the **** really hits the fan?

    What if you needed to rescue somebody? What if you needed to rescue yourself? Is your boat swampable? Will it turn rightside up if you were to get knockeddown? Do you guys wear harnesses either alone or together? Dry suits?
    This probably deserves a more or less serious reply.

    From my perspective, any small open sail and oar boat will eventually reach conditions that it can't handle. The question is how soon. The main thing is to anticipate conditions as best you can, exercise your best judgment and avoid getting caught out. However, it does happen that you can't always guess right.

    I am not sure exactly when Hornpipe would be in conditions she can't handle, which is a different state than conditions I am not comfortable in. In the Shipyard Raid in 2009 on the second day, the wind crossing north on the Straight of Georgia built from gently following breeze in the morning to 34 kts and 6-10 ft seas after we were truly committed to the crossing. I would have said beforehand that was way too much, but Hornpipe managed, with some surfing and and a few scary moments, to sail downwind to safety under much reduced sail, and come through unscathed and without even shipping any water apart from spray. Upwind I couldn't have made progress for sure but might have managed hove to.

    I don't wear a harness but always wear a lifejacket and have a floater coat and floater overalls for really rough and cold weather if I should go into the drink. Hornpipe carries enough weather helm that she immediately rounds up if you let go the tiller, so I have no worries about the boat getting away if I should fall overboard. I have climbed back aboard when swimming from the boat - the freeboard is low enough to easily accomplish that.

    I am pretty sure Hornpipe would not stay upside down if capsized - the narrow hull and hollow wooden spars should ensure it floats on its side at a minimum. I haven't conducted a swamp test but, since it's a wooden boat and full of drybags (which are still mostly air even when full) it should float relatively high. I should conduct such a test. One of my worries is how much water would come in the top of the daggerboard case (the lowest point above the water) if the boat was swamped and I was trying to bail - could I keep ahead of it? Before this trip I added a gasket around the top of the daggerboard and doubled the bungee holding it down so as to provide at least a partial seal against just this eventuality. The first line of defense in getting the water out is going to be the bailing bucket - in my case a milk jug with the handle left on, tethered to the boat. It shifts nearly a gallon of water at a time. Once the level is low enough, then the bilge pump could be brought into play.

    Rescuing other people? Haven't given it a lot of thought. Could probably get someone else out of the water and over the side into my boat (low freeboard) but also rescuing another boat in rough conditions might be a challenge.

    As for the other boats, I would say due her size, hull shape and form stability, Rowan is probably the most able of all the 4 boats in big winds and waters, but James could provide a better perspective based on conditions he has encountered.
    Alex

    "The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore.
    - Vincent van Gogh

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  27. #132
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    For hiking out ... what about bike shorts?
    That's a thought - build the padding into the butt, not the boat
    Alex

    "The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore.
    - Vincent van Gogh

    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  28. #133
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    This probably deserves a more or less serious reply.

    From my perspective, any small open sail and oar boat will eventually reach conditions that it can't handle. The question is how soon. The main thing is to anticipate conditions as best you can, exercise your best judgment and avoid getting caught out. However, it does happen that you can't always guess right.

    I am not sure exactly when Hornpipe would be in conditions she can't handle, which is a different state than conditions I am not comfortable in.
    This is very true. The boat can take more than this sailor, too. I do think there's a moment when you just drop all the sails and you use your oars to best control your flow downwind. A couple months ago, I set up along the lee shore of Lummi, and dumbly dropped my sail and started tying in a reef. I should have worked my way offshore a bit first. A couple big gusts and I was right up on to the rocks. I jumped up, yanked down the mizzen, unshipped my oars and rowed offshore. Sometimes oars are the answer. Good decisions are better, though.

    I feel like we've been over these disaster questions again and again across multiple threads, and it kills me that this is the topic that people dwell upon. These are capable boats when used smartly. It's all about the skipper, who needs to plan early, prepare well, reef early, wear their life jacket, and be flexible in their destinations and expectations. Even the lovely and talented Rowan has her limits.

    If you want a comfortable boat for all occasions, then buy a Bayliner with big cushy chairs, park it in your driveway and hang out on it there.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    I feel like we've been over these disaster questions again and again across multiple threads, and it kills me that this is the topic that people dwell upon.
    oh. sorry. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  30. #135
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    I like the part about the boats being more capable than the sailors. Any of the four boats on this outing are likely to have more innate ability than most anyone here is able to appreciate. That was my experience sailing the Inside Passage in a dory design dating back to the mid 1800s. My biggest worry was that I'd make some boneheaded mistake, and I made several, but the boat saved my grits every time.

  31. #136
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    When I was a lot younger I used to take a rowing boat out into Georgian Bay when 3 to 4 metre waves were rolling in and 20 to 30 knot winds, and 'dance' if you will, off the breakwater. It was sport and fun, and possibly a little dangerous but I did not waste my time thinking about the danger because I was 17. I note that Webb Chiles sailed a basically rowing/sailing boat essentially similar to the boats described in this thread, most of the way around the world. A hand-full of dory fishermen rowed back to land from the Grand Banks, most notably Howard Blackburn. These boats in competent hands are very able.

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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    That's a thought - build the padding into the butt, not the boat
    They make shorts for hiking out that have pads built into them. Like these: http://www.gillsailinggear.com/categ...ng-Shorts.html

  33. #138
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    I note that Webb Chiles sailed a basically rowing/sailing boat essentially similar to the boats described in this thread, most of the way around the world.
    I've rowed my Drascombe Lugger on occasion and I'll tell you it's no treat. I wouldn't want to have to go far with her in anything but perfect conditions. My total respect for Webb's accomplisment.

  34. #139
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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    This is very true. The boat can take more than this sailor, too. I do think there's a moment when you just drop all the sails and you use your oars to best control your flow downwind. A couple months ago, I set up along the lee shore of Lummi, and dumbly dropped my sail and started tying in a reef. I should have worked my way offshore a bit first. A couple big gusts and I was right up on to the rocks. I jumped up, yanked down the mizzen, unshipped my oars and rowed offshore. Sometimes oars are the answer. Good decisions are better, though.

    I feel like we've been over these disaster questions again and again across multiple threads, and it kills me that this is the topic that people dwell upon. These are capable boats when used smartly. It's all about the skipper, who needs to plan early, prepare well, reef early, wear their life jacket, and be flexible in their destinations and expectations. Even the lovely and talented Rowan has her limits.

    If you want a comfortable boat for all occasions, then buy a Bayliner with big cushy chairs, park it in your driveway and hang out on it there.
    Very good points. But for us hope to be good sailors, reading about how to approach things helps. I'd really rather not learn everything the hard way! And I really don't want the Bayliner in the driveway either.

    Cheers,

    Bobby

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    Default Re: Bandwagon, Big Food, Hornpipe & Rowan do Barkley Sound

    So much comes down to the crew. " A good ship in able hands," as the saying goes.Then its hard to define what's "rough." For instance if one was to say that such and such a boat proved quite able in 6-foot seas," what does that tell us? Were they long-period ground swells? Short, steep and breaking? Any cross seas? A combination of all? Somewhere in between? The variables are limitless.

    Yeadon's best statement, IMHO, is that the boat will take more than the crew can. Holds true for just about any boat in any sea state.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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