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Thread: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

  1. #1
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    Default Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Could I be pointed to contemporary (XX century and later) designs of boats that are:

    * Sailboats -- could be sail-and-oars, but mostly sail.
    * Small -- say, 12-18'
    * Open -- not decked, no cabins, no nothing
    * Double-enders -- no transoms
    * In the Scandinavian style -- faerings, and such
    * Not dories
    * Not canoes, not multihulls, no deep fixed keels, nothing (too) weird

    ...and not by Iain Oughtred :-)

    Kaa

  2. #2

    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    can you look at christian nielsen

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    The book Inshore craft of Norway by Bernhard Færøyvik from a manuscript by Bernhard and Øystein Færøyvik ; edited by Arne Emil Christensen covers the originals, written in English with all the lines.

    The Scandinavian originals are all quite long actually typically 20ft to get speed and stability form narrow water line hulls mainly used for rowing.

    Francois Viver has

    1. Elorn


    2. Youkou-Lili


    Paul Gartside has design #165 - "Double ended sloop".


    Atkin has Valgerda


    Doug Hylan has Beach Pea


    Arguably Ian Oughtred has mastered the type for appearance, performance and contemporary construction, his plans are very good, detailed and inexpensive. The Ness Yawl and Artcic Tern's are arguably the pinnacle. Ian in The Jeanie 2:

    http://www.pbase.com/kathymansfield/image/97779192
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 10-22-2010 at 07:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    If you want really trad' designs you cannot go past Bertil Andersson. You may recall our hosts picked up on a most excellent thread right here and published a whole article on a build of one of his Blekingsekas. At $35 for the plans you cannot do much better.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    thanks Duncan

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    The Ness Yawl and Artcic Tern's are arguably the pinnacle. Ian in The Jeanie 2:

    http://www.pbase.com/kathymansfield/image/97779192
    which design is Jeanie ii
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaa View Post
    ...and not by Iain Oughtred :-)

    Kaa
    Chesapeake Light Craft's Skerry

    Last edited by Paul Pless; 10-22-2010 at 06:58 AM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Doug Hylan has Beach Pea
    When did peapods become Scandinavian? I thought they were descended from canoes.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Paul, JII is basically a slightly narrower version of the Arctic Tern, the Ness boat came first then it was slightly modified to be the JII, same length. The JII was modified to be 6 strakes and slightly broader beam, about 2", to be a little less tender. The Ness boat was also made into an extended form that is the Ness yawl.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Paul,

    Ian sitting in his Jeanie 2 is the design Jeanie 2 or J2. It was a scaled down Ness Yawl, but with extra strakes as people seem to like that. It is tailored for sail and oar being of narrower beam that the Arctic Tern, which came later (it is the J2 with a little more beam and flatter floors for sailing carrying - but still a great sail and oar boat). The original Norwegian boats were 3/4 straked mainly which is why the Ness Yawl and others originally have fewer strakes. The original Jeanie 2 or more recent Arctic Tern are both available as stock designs from Ian, including the stretched Arctic Tern like James's Rowan, now called officially the Sooty Tern design.

    I put a picture up to show how good looking they are so they shouldn't be dissmissed.

    Peapods are double ended Lobster boats for inshore fisherman. Used as such rowed of a beach inshore this is how the Scandinavians used their faerings. Hence they look similar, being used for similar function. They have harder bilges for more form stability for pulling traps/ lobster pots over the gunwale, the Scandinavian types were quite tender, being mostly used for line fishing and tweeked more for speed when rowing as transport with longer DWL and slacker bilges. I put it up as anyone looking for the double ended type in a fairly short length might be interested. The peapod's firmer bilges will assist sail carrying power for this individual. I gather Doug Hylan plans are very good and the design is proven and great looking for someone who wants a small double ender of this type.
    Doug Hylan Beach pea...would fit someone with a Scandinavian eye for sheer and beauty I feel, thats all, in a small size and wanting modern plans.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 10-22-2010 at 07:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    There is a National Maritime Museum monograph with the lines of Shetland yawls and sixareens, with full instructions for building something like Peerie Maa and a Ness yawl.
    Written by Adrian G Osler, ISBN 0905555 71 6 called The Shetland Boat.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Allow me to do Paul Fisher:

    An 18 ft Faering:



    Kon But Puck at 17'3" x 5'8"


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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Also Joel White's Shearwater.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Couple of points:
    Please stop perpetuating Chapelle and Gardner speculation that peapods... called double-enders originally came from canoes. There is no hard evidence for this. What there is evidence for is that double-enders came along in the late 19th century as a response to the burgeoning lobster industry which in those days was driven by canneries. They are what you get when you take the pretty ubiqitous 14 foot round bottom transome skiff and turn it into a double ender which is a harder boat to build.

    On the faering front, the tradiotional sources mentioned are excellent as is Norland and Afordbaten (a 4 volume series in old Norse). One of the monographs published by the Apprenticeshop when it was in Bath has lines. Lots of sources, web and print, cited in a thread last year on faerings.

    We use to call Shearwater the Joelselver.....
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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    One of the monographs published by the Apprenticeshop when it was in Bath has lines.
    'Norse Boatbuilding in North America' is the name of that monograph. The lines were for a Sognab(o)at and an Oselver iirc.
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Just a note from a Scandinavian:
    There are many types of scandinavian doubleenders. Not all being long with slack bilges and 3 strakes a side. There a thousands of years of history with small and big, but fat doubleenders used to carry whatever from an island to another. Relatively plumb sterns, many strakes and they could be semi decked.
    here on this forum there´s a tendency to focus only on lightweight super stylistic doubleenders aka Oughtred and White when talking about something Scandinavian. (none of them Scandinavian!) In my eyes they are almost a caricature of what I´ve seen my whole life.
    Another tendency is the use of Norse and Faering as the same. Faering is one type of Norse boat, but there are thousands of them. Its not something standard. Faerings from the Atlantic sea are very different from Danish doublenders (jolle, kvase, ec) which is very different from a Snipa from North Sweeden close to Finland. But ithey are all Scandinavian doubleenders with roots deep in the Norse culture.
    In my humble but direct experience, the Beach Pea looks more Scandinavian the Oughtreds and White boats. (Exept that it has a flat bottom plank.) Maybe in the eyes of a Norwegian, it looks all wrong. Many different backgrounds means many different boats.

    Doubleenders were the standard boat until the horible event of the outboard engine. Then transom boats beacame the standard.
    Here you have a photo of a typical Danish Smakkejolle. A workboat all the way through. I used to own one. It was all black because of the tar. What a beauty.
    Last edited by aldebaran; 10-23-2010 at 03:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Do you have something against Ian?

    Ill enter in my peapod: 16' Walter Simmons Mattinicus Island Double Ender.





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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Couple of points:
    Please stop perpetuating Chapelle and Gardner speculation that peapods... called double-enders originally came from canoes.
    now i know, thanks

    they're still not scandinavian. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Oughtred's boats are really adaptations of the Shetland Yole, related to but not actually strictly "Scandanavian".

    I understand why someone would want to investigate all the other options out there, but talking double-Enders without Oughtred is like talking portable MP3 players without mentioning iPods. There's a few very good reasons why they're so popular.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    I highly recommend Valgerda by William and John Atkin. I have recently launched mine and am in the process of wrapping up the rig, rudder and other giblets for the sailing rig.

    She's a GORGEOUS design, and comparatively simple to build. Three planks per side, three frames, two rangs, and a backbone. I will be installing removeable bouyancy bags in the ends for flotation, but one could also do water-tight comaprtments, too.

    Construction blog for my project, Dark Secret, is here:

    http://ricksboatshop.blogspot.com

    and Brandon Ford, out on the other coast, has recently launched his Valgerda, Ravn.

    http://valgerda.blogspot.com

    I hope to be out rowing in a couple of hours, once I am finished stiching the leathers on my oars. My fingers are killing me!!

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Do you have something against Ian?

    No, absolutely not. I think Iain is an extremely talented designer and maybe the most important design profile right now. All of Iain´s designs have this personal touch of his. I personally think his line is a bit overdone. Especially in the doubleenders with to much sheerline and overhang in the sterns. But thats just me and because I was brought up with another tradition. I like his pulling boats and sail/oar boats A LOT. Especially the original Acorn skiff and the Tammie Norrie

    In my Scandinavian eyes, you Pea Pod looks more like "home"

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Beautuful boat. With a few less strakes she would look just like a faering ;]

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    In 1963 I remember seeing these boats stacked up on the wharf at Stavanger, Norway, waiting to be shipped further north up the Norwegian coast. They had three planks on each side and three sawn frames. There were probably not more than 25 pieces in each boat. They looked nice.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    This is interesting. Shearwater looks all wrong from a Scandanavian perspective? Can you elaborate more, is it the same as the caricature comments about Outred? And I don't have a dog in any fight. I love them all. I wish I could live long enough to build every one of them.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    The Shetland Islands were invested and colonized by vikings during that era and ruled as essentially an autonomous petty kingdom with a nod to the Norwegian king as overlord. They were later seized outright by the Norwegian King. Norway, in turn entered into union with Denmark. Just before the beginning of the 16th century The Shetland Islands were mortgaged by Denmark to Scotland which mortgage was never redeemed and the Shetland (along with Orkney) Islands were annexed by Scotland.

    The seafaring tradition of the Shetland Islands has been very scandinavian since the viking era and old norse words and expressions are still common in the colloquial language today. I would say that Oughtred's double ender designs have very scandinavian pedigree whether one is attracted to particular double ender design styles of his or not.

    As alderbaren points out there are many types of scandinavian double enders. In fact, there are many types of faerings alone. For example,the Sunnmore faering has five strakes and almost vertical stems the Nordfjord faering has four strakes with a very pronounced sheer.

    A person living at the time the Gokstad faering was built more than 1,000 years ago with a steering board on the starboard side might arguably question the authenticity of working boat faerings of later periods with their stern mounted rudder. Fin keels, built in ballasted, as well as deeper keeled Oselver racing faerings with marconi rigs didn't arrive until the 20th century. Mainly used as pleasure craft, they might have their authenticity questioned by working fishermen of the 19th century and before whose faerings used square sails or sprit rigs if any sail at all and rocks as ballest outbound and replaced by (hopefully) fish inbound.

    As has been pointed out faerings are but one type of double ender to be found. There are local, regional and historic purpose driven reasons for the many differences. Whether its one of Iain Oughtred's double enders or the lines taken from one of Bertil Andersson's historic types mainly from Sweden, or the faering built by Lagspiller or Clinton Chase's Drake which can be read about on this forum, they are all very much in the scandinavian style.
    Last edited by WCM; 10-23-2010 at 03:47 PM. Reason: typo corrections

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    "Shearwater looks all wrong from a Scandanavian perspective? Can you elaborate more,"

    It doesnt look "home" in my Scandinavian eyes. It looks foreign. Thats because I´m from another region of Scandinavia (Denmark)
    I dont like this tendency that you see here, that Scandinavian boats should look like a faering. The faeroe islands and Shetland islands are not and have never been Scandinavia. Its an Atlantic culture which they share with Western Norway. Nothing wrong with that. Of course.
    Scandinavia with its thousands of years of boat history has so many other things to offer. So please dont simplify things. It would be the same as to say that the American small boat history is only Whitehalls and everything else out. (Peapods, wherrys etc.)

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Quote Originally Posted by aldebaran View Post
    The faeroe islands and Shetland islands are not and have never been Scandinavia. Its an Atlantic culture which they share with Western Norway. Nothing wrong with that.
    If you're a Norwegian you may beg to differ:

    Scandinavian colonisation

    By the end of the 9th century the Scandinavians shifted their attention from plundering to invasion, mainly due to the overpopulation of Scandinavia in comparison to resources and arable land available there.[6]
    Shetland was colonised by Norsemen in the 9th century, the fate of the existing indigenous population being uncertain. The colonisers gave it that name and established their laws and language. That language evolved into the West Nordic language Norn, which survived into the 19th century.
    After Harald Finehair took control of all Norway, many of his opponents fled, some to Orkney and Shetland. From the Northern Isles they continued to raid Scotland and Norway, prompting Harald Hårfagre to raise a large fleet which he sailed to the islands. In about 875 he and his forces took control of Shetland and Orkney. Ragnvald, Earl of Møre received Orkney and Shetland as an earldom from the king as reparation for his son's being killed in battle in Scotland. Ragnvald gave the earldom to his brother Sigurd the Mighty.
    Shetland was Christianised in the 10th century.
    And it goes on and on going as far as the 18th Century' attempts to redeem the islands. They weren't formally declared part of Scotland until 1742.

    I'd say they're more Nordic than British over their history. Please note I don't have a horse in this race... Despite my first name!
    Last edited by Duncan Gibbs; 10-23-2010 at 08:01 PM. Reason: Missing quotation formatting
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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    I was reading an article in Smithsonian Magazine last night about a mass grave in which it is theorized that the English--or Anglo Saxons or whatever--executed around 50 Vikings. A paragraph or two summarizing the historical context mentioned that more than half of the appr. 2.5 million residents of Britain were Norwegian or Swedish. I found that to be a staggering fact! They pointed this out in the context that the exectuions were not likely a pogrom, because so much of the populace was Scandinavian, but rather, since the executions took place near a govenrment seat, that the unfortunates were probably rebels of some kind. This is of course speculation. They also mentioned the 25 yr. period in which Britain was actually ruled by Viking kings, specifically Canute.

    Again, I love them all--but it seems pretty hard to take the position that the UK and American double-enders are not Scandinavian derivatives. On the other hand, the counter-argument is that the shape is so close to perfect, that every culture would eventually come up with it, if the water were cold enough and the sharks hungry enough. Therefore, who cares, but it is fun to think about.

    I would like to build two or three of each.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great
    Last edited by davebrown; 11-26-2010 at 11:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Duncan, you are mixing up things. Nordic and Scandinavian. Finland is also nordic but not Scandinavian. Scandinavia is Norway, Sweeden and Denmark. Nordic Countrys are Norway, Sweeden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland. In this group the Faeroe islands normally and Greenland sometimes are included. But never Shetland Islands. Another thing is that it has a lot of cultural things in common with some nordic countrys. Including Greenland is purely political because of the strong relationship with Denmark.

    Never mind what you include culturally, politically or geografical, the variety of small boats is enourmous and there´s a big difference between boats in the Atlantic style (Norway, Iceland, Faeroe Islands AND Shetland islands) and the boats from the rest of the region(s). And if we speak about size and population, this second group (non atlantic) is a lot bigger with a more boats and bigger variety of styles and shapes.

    The Faerings and its likes, where Oughtreds doubleenders enters, just like Shearwater do and many others, are beautifull and very capable boats. But in my Scandinavian eyes, being from Denmark and with family roots in Sweeden, they dont look familiar. They look foreign and i find it to be interesting that the American PeaPod loks more familiar and thus more Scandinavian in my eyes.

    When you read discussions here on the forum about American boats, you´ll see that its being taken very serious the origins of the different boat styles. Its very important to know the difference between a Wherry and a Whitehall etc. This I understand and respect. I also respect the difference in Scandinavian (or nordic) boats

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Quote Originally Posted by aldebaran View Post
    Duncan, you are mixing up things. Nordic and Scandinavian. Finland is also nordic but not Scandinavian. Scandinavia is Norway, Sweeden and Denmark.
    Those two countries I've set in bold type are the principal countries that have had major and direct influence on the British Isles. Norway (therefore Nordic/Scandinavian) is the principal player in the history of the Shetlands.

    Aldebaran, I respect your Danish/Swedish Eyes. However, in matters of origin the British Isles are quite the mix. F'rinstance, old Norse law is still applied in some respects in Scotland and especially in the Shetland Islands:

    Udal law is a near-defunct Norse derived legal system, which is found in Shetland and Orkney, Scotland and in Manx law [1] at the Isle of Man. It is closely related to Odelsrett.
    Udal law was codified by the kings Magnus I of Norway "the good" and Magnus VI of Norway "lawmender". The Treaty of Perth transferred the Outer Hebrides and Isle of Man to Scots law while Norse law and rule still applied for Shetland and Orkney.
    Scottish Courts have intermittently acknowledged the supremacy of Udal law in property cases up to the present day. Major differences from Scots law include shore ownership rights, important for pipelines and cables.
    Udal law generally holds sway in Shetland and Orkney, along with Scots law.
    In the same way in the English language we use the old English for the animal (ox or cow) and the French for the meat (beef), I dare say that the Norse (and therefore Scandinavian) roots of both the culture and boat building technique and design in the Shetland (Zetland in Norse) and Faeroe Islands are quite well preserved in their comparative isolation, especially when one thinks of all those Viking names and peculiarities in East "Anglia" and "Jutland."

    I don't think these traditions are as pure or have developed in as much isolation as you would like to think. I would posit that Scandinavian influences (and indeed Scandinavians themselves) had everything to do with the development of the Shetland double enders. Whilst some of the aboriginal Shetland blood may have mixed with Norse colonisers, there really can be no doubt as to whose was the dominant culture in every respect.
    Last edited by Duncan Gibbs; 10-24-2010 at 03:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders



    The Shetland Coat of Arms may give us a clue...

    But perhaps not quite the vessel Kaa is looking for: "Small" being the operative word.
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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    I totally agree that The Shetland double enders are origined in Nordic boats. I think its obvious. Thats what I called the Atlantic style boats. But as I already mentioned, there are many other Scandinavian boats, and they are normally not mentioned on this board, where Scandinavian often means Faering, Oughtred and Shearwater. And then it stays there.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Having trouble understanding what is being argued over here. Danish and Norwegian areas of influence? Or what constitutes a færing?

    I have absolutely no trouble at all recognizing the lines of Oughtred's færing or Shearwater as being classic færing. But I don't believe Aldebaran has trouble with that either. His point is that færing is not really a specific type of design - at least, in anything but a general sense. Færing means specifically 'four-oared'. I'd also add the oar configuration is in pairs - but if somebody from another region comes along and claims that their færing has a different config, then I wouldn't argue much. Beyond that, there are some general charactistics - they are quite simply an open workboat fine-tuned to function in the specific area they are used.

    The type of færing most here call 'faering' is typical of western norway. That it also matches quite well with the small boat found in the Gokstad ship has helped very well as PR for this design style. I can understand how that could become tiresome for someone of scandinavian or nordic heritage, but accustomed to a less 'striking' design tradition.

    For what it's worth, even in this area where færings look like they should ( ) we differenciate between 'high stem' and 'low stem' færings. Both traditions live side by side in the Hardanger area - Oselver and Hardangerbåts (like the one I built) and low stem, rounder Strandebarmer boats. Færing from Eastern and Southern Norway are generally rounder, in the
    Trondheim area they are more pronounced teardrop shaped (Geitbåt) and farther north they narrow and get absolutely plumb, very tall stems.

    So Alderbaran is completely right in that there are many types of færing.
    Opinions about what looks right or wrong as a scandinavian or nordic type are just that... opinions - linked to local tradition. Boats are designed to function in specific waters for specific jobs. Alderbaran is right to be proud of his local traditions and it is easy to understand his complaint.
    Oughtred made a classic færing design. But it shouldn't be confused with representing the entire class of boat.

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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    I think that it must be remembered that the boats from the Scandinavian family have all evolved from what may be a common ancestor. There is little archaeological evidence surviving but you can read it in the structure of the boats.
    If you consider the Nydam boat as the earliest known prototype, long slender with curved raking stems. The sea going vessels naturally grew bigger, but the construction shows that they were not just scaled up, but built up. The original shear streak survives as the thick streak at the heads of the frames, whilst the new topsides are framed with standing knees integral with the old thwart beams. The best preserved of these boats, all found in the centre of the Danish-Swedish-Norwegian kingdom (one of which was built in the Scandinavian city Dublin) suggests that no regional differences had evolved at that time.
    As to the small boats you can read a similar story. There is a ruler straight line of decent from the small Gokstad boats to the Shetland model. The Shetlands bought their boats from Bergen until about 1840, they were three streak boats with curved raking stems just like the Gokstad faering. When timber became available by steamer from Aberdeen, the link with Bergen was broken, and the local builders began to evolve towards four or six streak boats with a standing garboard.
    Meanwhile you can see the evolution of the Scandinavian mainland boats as documented by Faeroyvik. Take for example the Church boat from Osterfjord. This is a three streak boat that has been deepened by the addition of another streak. In the church boat the top timbers do not extend to the new shear, but end at what would have been the old inwhale. The faering from Songdal has been deepened in the same way, but the top timbers do extend to support the new top streak. A clear line of decent back to the Gokstad faering. I am certain that a study of the Baltic coast boats would tell the same story.
    I would suggest that these boats changed form very slowly until and even after stern rudders straightened the sternpost.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #35
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    Default Re: Small open Scandinavian double-enders

    Back to the original post....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaa View Post
    * In the Scandinavian style -- faerings, and such
    * Not dories
    How much difference is there really between dories and faerings?


    emf Beautiful boat. With a few less strakes she would look just like a faering ;]
    As emf just built a faering, I think this is very telling. Matty really is a dory,


    And then there's emf's gorgeous faering




    So... whats making the difference for you?
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

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