Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

[pez_leon]

I am purchasing the rigging for my Vivier Seil and would like to hear your opinions,
mostly on a few lines.

The rig is an unstayed boomless 11 sq. meter lug. Vivier calls for a 10 mm halyard and mainsheet.

1: Does anyone have any experience with Duckworks Raid Braid? I was all set to buy vintage Sta-Set when I found this cheaper competitor. Quantitative information on stretch is not provided, but it does have a good recommendation from John Wellsford.

https://duckworks.com/dwx-raid-braid/

2: My last boat had an oversized mainsheet- I think 1/2”. It was obviously far stronger than is needed, but was a real pleasure to hold. I’m inclined to buy a 12 mm line for this boat. What sheet diameter do you prefer?

3: One of the goals for this boat an easy platform for my small wife and even smaller kids. I am considering reducing the work required to hold the sheet by splashing out for a ratcheting block. The sheet will be rigged to a 2:1 advantage. Any opinions?

[WI-Tom]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

My mainsail is about 8 sq m, also a boomless standing lug.

1. No experience with Raid Braid. I use 1/4" low-stretch line (not Dyneema) for halyard and downhaul.

2. I think I use 3/8" (so, 10 mm?) for the sheet. Comfort matters a lot more to me than a small-diameter low-friction sheet; I'm not a racer. 3/8" seems to work well without being too bulky. Especially if you use a ratchet block, 10mm ought to be enough.

3. Definitely recommend a ratchet block. $40 or so, I think. It makes a big difference in how pleasant it is to control the sheet. I would think that would apply even more to your larger sail. I also have my sheet rigged as a 2:1. Even so, I found the ratchet block improved things a lot (I sailed it with and without, then added the ratchet block per Ben Fuller's recommendation and would never go back).

Another thought--you'll definitely want low-stretch line for your downhaul. I have mine rigged as a 3:1, and in high (triple-reefing) winds, I definitely need the 3:1 to get adequate luff tension.

Good luck! Rigging is an exciting stage to reach.

Tom

[John hartmann]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

I’m using it for Umami’s mainsheet and like it well—nice soft hand. Can’t comment on stretch, as I’m not using it where the line is under constant load; for the sheet which is continually seeing adjustment under way, it’s great. As Tom recommended, a low or non stretch halyard of dyneema/vectran or similar will help maintain luff tension, a key ingredient for optimal deployment of a lug when working upwind.

[John hartmann]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

Re-reading your post and noting a goal of the boat being an easy platform for your family, I would make your reefing schedule and reefing drills an early priority as you get familiar with the boat. My Ilur’s standing lug is the same size as yours, and is a very powerful sail. As you approach the time to reef, a lug of that stature can become an increasing handful, and a boat like the Seil will be easily driven even with her sail deeply reefed. As the breeze pipes up, reefing will make the boat much more manageable and less intimidating for your crew. Reefing a standing lug is easy, but driving a boat under the full press of a big lug, with the sail flogging as you luff through gusts, spray flying won’t be much fun for your crew.

[pez_leon]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

Thank you John and Tom for insightful responses! I had not realized that a Dacron rope's relatively small amount of stretch would be enough to require frequent adjustment. I think I see it now: If the sail is supported by 4 m of halyard and another 4 m of downhaul, then a stretch of only 1% would elongate the lines by 8 cm, which would significantly affect tension. Does anyone have a line on "traditional" looking very low stretch rope? This stuff is expensive enough to make even me question my own vanity:

https://rwrope.com/collections/sailing-rope/products/endura-braid-classic-tan-dyneema-polyester-double-braid-rope?variant=14090679648309

Your feedback on the mainsheet is very useful. 10 mm DWX Raid Braid with a ratchet block is the plan.

And John, I appreciate your thoughts on sailing with the family. I will definitely reef early and often and make drills a regular part of our outings.

James

[John hartmann]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

The 6mm Vectran 12 is half the price, easy to splice, has a nice soft hand, and is pretty UV tolerant.

https://rwrope.com/products/vectran-12-12-strand-100-vectran-rope?variant=29446035963957

[Autonomous]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

I have a raid braid halyard on one of my boats with a balanced lug. It's good line, especially for the price. As that boat's downhaul is quick and easy to adjust (cam cleat and multipart tackle), I don't see a need for expensive very low stretch line. My other lug rigged boat has a horned cleat for the downhaul, so it gets stronger, lower stretch line.
For a mainsheet 3/8" - 10mm is usually plenty on a small boat.

[Woxbox]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

Terrapin's running rigging is 100 percent Raid Braid. It's a great value and I'm glad I went with it. I agree you need to size lines for smaller boats for hand feel, not for strength. When you do this, the actual loads are far below the design loads for the line. As such, you won't get nearly as much stretch as the manufacturer lists. Much less than the 1 percent you mention. Once the line has taken on it's initial set, you won't have a problem with 1/4" and 3/8" line stretching noticeably. It certainly doesn't on my boat, which carries a 150 square-foot main.

I've used all the line types over the years, including dyneema, Spectra, etc. etc. The fancy stuff has remarkable properties and is worth the cost for big, highly-stressed rigs. But that's not what we're talking about here. The only two shortcomings of Raid Braid are one: a cover that, while very comfortable in the hand, can catch on things and develop little pulls or tufts. The threads don't actually break; and two, compared to other double-braids, it's in the middle range for resistance to hockling and tangling. It's supple, but not as supple as some. Both of these issues can be dealt with easily enough: keep the line from spreading all over the place, and flake it down rather than coiling it.

I do like the tan color, too. Looks decent on a traditionally styled boat.

Terrapin-SA.jpg

[Autonomous]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

Duckworks had one line they recommended for mainsheets. It's light, has a good hand and doesn't soak much water which is great when the main sheet gets dunked. I can't remember its name but then they don't offer it anymore.
Never mind...

[WI-Tom]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

I agree you need to size lines for smaller boats for hand feel, not for strength. When you do this, the actual loads are far below the design loads for the line. As such, you won't get nearly as much stretch as the manufacturer lists. Much less than the 1 percent you mention. Once the line has taken on it's initial set, you won't have a problem with 1/4" and 3/8" line stretching noticeably. It certainly doesn't on my boat, which carries a 150 square-foot main.

This is an excellent point. I don't use expensive non-stretch for downhaul or halyard. I use a low-stretch yacht braid, 1/4". I haven't noticed any problems with stretch.

Tom

[pez_leon]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

Ha! I missed Dave and Tom's most recent posts and bought the good stuff, sure to be wildly overqualified for this application. I am taking consolation in my local hardware store / chandlery's fantastic prices on special ordered line. It doesn't make much sense to me but anything I have ordered from them comes in far far below the price of online stores and chain marine supply places.
It is good to know that inexpensive Raid Braid is so well reviewed. Next time!

Thanks,

James

[Ben Fuller]

Re: Raid Braid experience/ Dinghy main sheet recommendations

If you want to fatten up your sheet where you trim it, you can always use the dinghy racers trick and take a cover from a bigger piece of line and stitch it into place in the area that you handle or strio the cover from a thicker piece of double braid so that just the core runs through the block from the spot that you hold going up wind to the bitter end. The more blocks you have in the system the more benefit. On a simple 2x1 there isn't much. I figure that a ratchet is worth at least a part in a simple sheet system. Most of them are set so that 1 lb/kg holds 10 lb/kg.