Wood, the Next Wave

[David G]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

That's a design problem. Architects, designers and builders need to think in terms of The Long Now and not in terms of disposabuildings.

Never heard of that organization before now, but it looks interesting. Under 'disciplines' I see Economics (which I'll peruse later), but not Architecture (which is not only the topic here, but would seem a natural for study/inclusion). Did I miss something?

[Mrleft88]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

The tree is wood. The concrete is not.
Up thread someone stated that there were concrete buildings 500 years old, but not many wooden ones. That's incorrect. There are stone and mortar buildings over 500 years old, but no concrete buildings at all.
There are indeed 500 and older wooden structures.
Modern Concrete was "invented" in 1824 by Charles Aspdin.
Before the amalgamation of "Portland cement" to "Lime cement"
The first Concrete building was built in 1875, in Port Chester, NY.
There were certainly cemetitious structures built thousands of years ago, but the cement was used as a bonding agent, and/or filler between stone blocks, or baked brick, and as a veneer, or fascia.

My apologies. The comment up thread was referring to masonry buildings, not concrete. My mistake.

[Nicholas Carey]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

Never heard of that organization before now, but it looks interesting. Under 'disciplines' I see Economics (which I'll peruse later), but not Architecture (which is not only the topic here, but would seem a natural for study/inclusion). Did I miss something?

The Long Now Foundation is a creation of Stewart Brand, creator of The Whole Earth Catalog and general polymath.

You mean stuff like this (they do a lot of talks and seminars)?

Design by Radical Indigenism

https://longnow.org/seminars/02020/sep/15/design-radical-indigenism/

Responding to climate change by building hard infrastructures and favoring high-tech homogenous design, we are ignoring millennia-old knowledge of how to live in symbiosis with nature. Without implementing soft systems that use biodiversity as a building block, designs remain inherently unsustainable.

There is a cumulative body of multigenerational knowledge, practices, and beliefs designed to sustainably work with complex ecosystems. Watson's work reconnects with this sophisticated global body of knowledge.

Julia Watson teaches Urban Design at Harvard and Columbia University and is author of Lo-TEK. Design by Radical Indigenism (02019). Her work focuses on experiential, landscape, and urban design, with an ethos towards global ecological change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxrFhbGWd3A

[David G]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

The Long Now Foundation is a creation of Stewart Brand, creator of The Whole Earth Catalog and general polymath.

You mean stuff like this (they do a lot of talks and seminars)?

Design by Radical Indigenism

https://longnow.org/seminars/02020/sep/15/design-radical-indigenism/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxrFhbGWd3A

Thanks, I'll look thru the 'talks'.

[Nicholas Carey]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

The tree is wood. The concrete is not.
Up thread someone stated that there were concrete buildings 500 years old, but not many wooden ones. That's incorrect. There are stone and mortar buildings over 500 years old, but no concrete buildings at all.
There are indeed 500 and older wooden structures.
Modern Concrete was "invented" in 1824 by Charles Aspdin.
Before the amalgamation of "Portland cement" to "Lime cement"
The first Concrete building was built in 1875, in Port Chester, NY.
There were certainly cemetitious structures built thousands of years ago, but the cement was used as a bonding agent, and/or filler between stone blocks, or baked brick, and as a veneer, or fascia.

My apologies. The comment up thread was referring to masonry buildings, not concrete. My mistake.

The Romans built lots of stuff with concrete.

The Pantheon (c. 29-19 BCE) in Rome, for instance, is a concrete building. Its dome, with its span of 150 roman feet (142 modern feet), is the largest unreinforced concrete dome in the world. And large parts of Rome's Coliseum are concrete.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158783249/rome-wasnt-built-in-a-day-but-they-sure-had-strong-concrete

[Mrleft88]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

Semantics.
The "concrete" used in the coliseum is not what modern people would call concrete.
While ancient "Concrete" was made of aggregate, and limestone, or other stone slurry, it is not the same as modern day concrete.
Wall finishes were often made with pulverized alabaster,or marble to give them a luminescence, but the colors used, when the "Fresco" is wet will be different when it dries. "Fresco" means fresh.
Is Fresco Concrete? Or is it plaster? Both are made of the same material in ancient Rome....
Modern Concrete is different.

[Jack Loudon]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

I am glad to see wood being used in commercial construction, as it's far easier to recycle once the building is no longer wanted.

Barring earthquakes, concrete buildings last just about forever, long after they have outlived their usefulness; kind of like old fiberglass boats. Concrete is expensive to demolish, and recycled concrete has few uses.

I respect Stewart Brand but few of us want to live or work in old buildings. They might look beautiful and elicit nostalgic feelings but there is no easy way to insulate, or run electrical/plumbing/HVAC. Old houses don't have floor plans we now prefer. Old commercial buildings are choked with columns and often have unsafe fire exiting. Few of us would want to go back to 1950s cars with poor efficiency, high pollution, and no crash protection. Newer buildings are likewise safer, healthier (with decent ventilation) and more efficient. Even a couple of people on this list who proselytize reuse/recycle are having new houses built for themselves.

I'm sitting in my mom's house right now, built in 1913, with minimal upgrades and a couple of schlocky unpermitted add-ons. The stairs to my mom's bedroom have 11 inch rise. No insulation, single-pane windows, knob & tube wiring, galvanized plumbing. Wisps of sawdust on the table from termites in the ceiling above. To upgrade all this would probably cost 2-3 hundred thousand (remodeling is always more expensive than new construction) and we would still be left with a strange old house that suits nobody.

In the past, I have been involved in big remodel projects where we concluded it would have been far quicker and cheaper to tear down and build new. Like an old wooden boat, it takes money and dedication to own an old house, as well as the willingness to put up with a sub-optimal layout.

Sorry, a bit of semi off topic rambling.

[ron ll]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

Like they say here in Ballard, it’s hard to beat a Norwegian with a hammer.

[Priscilla]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

Like they say here in Ballard, it’s hard to beat a Norwegian with a hammer.

True…

https://www.metalocus.es/en/news/worlds-tallest-wooden-building-mjosa-tower-voll-arkitekter

IMG_4647.jpg

[MushCreek]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

I wonder what the difference in skill level is between a concrete worker and a wood worker?

[Mrleft88]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

I wonder what the difference in skill level is between a concrete worker and a wood worker?

The same as the difference between an orange juicer, and a cider press.

[Jfitzger]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

This from the Portland Cement Association,

The design service life of most buildings is often 30 years, although buildings often last 50 to 100 years or longer.

Modern concrete, aside from having different ingredients than ancient concrete, contains steel reinforcement which is what leads to failure, not the a break down off the concrete itself. When set rebar forms a layer of oxidation that temporarily protects it. Over time carbon dioxide and chlorides migrate through the concrete and attack the rebar. It swells, damages the surrounding concrete which hastens water ingress and the whole process accelerates. There's a reason most of the builds from the post war brutalist building boom look like crap today.

The average piece of lumber in construction grew for less than twenty years and was grown for that purpose. With glulams and laminated veneer lumber tree farmed wood is all that is necessary. In the process it sequesters carbon and, unlike steel and concrete, requires minimal energy to be processed to a useable form.

I wonder what the difference in skill level is between a concrete worker and a wood worker?

I worked for years as a carpenter so I might be biased but I think the skill level is similar but very different. The personality type is very different. The last crew I worked on had eight college degrees among six guys. All except for one guy were native born and yet everyone but me spoke a foreign language fluently. My three years of French left me far from fluent. Concrete guys I've been around tend to be more stereotypically blue collar or immigrants.

[ron ll]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

Building with concrete often requires building with wood first.

[Priscilla]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

I wonder what the difference in skill level is between a concrete worker and a wood worker?

As a 45 year veteran of the building industry I never meet a woodworker that ever expressed any interest in being a concrete worker.
It is damned hard work.

[Jack Loudon]

Re: Wood, the Next Wave

We had separate structural concrete and architectural/flatwork crews, analogous to framers and finish carpenters. Our lead arch concrete foreman did amazing work. He would keep photos of his stuff on his phone. I would call him an artist.