What's going on in Poland?

[gypsie]

Whats going on in Poland?
Looks like the PiS, the governng party, are trying to introduce a law to ban all descent. Using the war in Uklraine, and Russian misinformation as a backdrop.

Members of this party are looking down the barrel of jail time if they lose power.

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2023/05/31/the-polish-government-is-preparing-the-final-blow-to-the-country-s-democracy_6028640_23.html

The stakes for the PiS are extremely high. The loss of power would inevitably result in severe personal consequences for a number of politicians and state officials involved in corruption scandals, misuse of power and, most importantly, blatant breaches of the constitution. Meanwhile, the prospects for the re-election are vague. The Russian appears as a useful tool helping rubber stamp the ruling party’s grip on the state.

The new commission will have enormous powers. It will be able to declare that a specific person acted under Russian influence against Poland’s interests and impose penalties which include the ban on performing public functions for up to 10 years. However, there is no precise definition of what constitutes such a criminal conduct. The commission will be thus given unfettered discretion in recognizing certain individuals as Russian agents – without a possibility to appellate against its verdicts. Moreover, individuals could be punished for past actions which did not constitute an offense at the time.

It appears they picked this idea up from Erdogan, and advised Netenyahu on his recent attempt to change his judiciary laws.
The PiS have expressed admiration for Victor Orban, wishing they could move Budapest to Warsaw.

The EU have long had a problem with 'Rule Of Law' in both Poland and Hungary.

Is this the whole story?
Any of our Central European forumites able to fill out the picture?
Tom - feel like you've lost your freedom yet?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Homophones - strife creating bastards..

dissent.

[skuthorp]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Seems like they are a natural fit with Putin…………..

[George Jung]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Interesting how miscreants world wide have seized/tried to seize power - and by appearances, 'we' are powerless to stop them.

[Mrleft88]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Next up: "What happened to the USA? It seems Trump/Desantis are trying to quell all dissent. If they don't succeed, they may be looking at lucrative book/TV deals."

[JayInOz]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Listened to a Russian phone intercept this morning. One Russian soldier saying that US aid to Ukraine is coming in through Poland, so they need to attack Poland now. Go on- I dare ya JayInOz

[WI-Tom]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Tom - feel like you've lost your freedom yet?

Yes. I've totally lost my freedom.

I'm no longer free to commute for 40 miles in a car I pay to maintain, insure, and fill with fuel.
I'm no longer free to wait for weeks for a medical appointment only to find out my insurance won't cover the costs anyway.
I'm no longer free to have greed-driven materialistic commerce available 7 days every week.
I'm no longer free to stick my head in the sand and live in a nation of monoglots who couldn't name 3 countries in Europe on a map.
I'm no longer free to pay exorbitatant fees for dental care.
I'm no longer free to live in a place where an utter lack of convenient public transit allows me to escape the perils of socialism.

It's terrible. Just terrible.

Tom

[Jim Bow]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Tom, you missed the point. All your points are well founded, yet if things go dictatorial most of that will disappear.

As for being monoglot, sadly that is typical for most large landmass countries. US, Canada, Russia, China, Australia. Europe has close neighbors with short borders.

Drop down to areas close to Mexico, and bilingualism is quite common.

I must point out that, in Europe, France has the smallest percentage of bilingual persons. Some credit that to snobbishness.

[WI-Tom]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Tom, you missed the point. All your points are well founded, yet if things go dictatorial most of that will disappear.

Nope--I didn't miss the point. I sidestepped it to make another point.

Right-wing authoritarian populist politics is a dangerous thing, and I'm not liking what I see here in that direction. One might argue, however, that it's far more dangerous when it pops up in a dominant nation-state like the U.S. than elsewhere. Poland has not had an attempted coup in the past 4 years. The U.S. has.

That said, the point I was making is that the "freedom" that many in the U.S. believe in so strongly looks an awful lot like un-freedom in other parts of the world. The exceptionalist myth at the heart of right-wing U.S. culture and politics looks even sillier from the outside than it does from within. So I don't feel obliged to let that myth pass unchallenged when it makes an appearance.

Tom

[Paul Pless]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Nope--I didn't miss the point. I sidestepped it to make another point.

eh? that you david g???

[gypsie]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Unfortunately that line has side tracked a genuine question.
Whats going on in Poland? Is Rule-of-Law coming apart at the seams or is it the dying gasp of a corrupt government?

From the outside Poland continues to struggle with democratic processes. Am I miss reading it?

[WI-Tom]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Unfortunately that line has side tracked a genuine question.
Whats going on in Poland? Is Rule-of-Law coming apart at the seams or is it the dying gasp of a corrupt government?

From the outside Poland continues to struggle with democratic processes. Am I miss reading it?

I think Mikolaj is far more qualified to understand the current situation than I am, but I'd say you're not entirely wrong. There is definitely a resurgence of right-wing authoritarian politics here. I just don't have the local knowledge or background to understand it. I have a vague sense that central Europe overall used to be treated as "not really Europe"--and perhaps something of this dynamic lingers, with central European nations being something like second-class citizens status in EU perceptions? But think about the UK, Turkey, Hungaria, Poland, India. The U.S. too. Democratic governance vs. right-wing politics is happening all over.

My sense, uninformed as it is, is that the transition from communism to democracy is a VERY recent thing here in central Europe, and one of the lingering effects is a distrust in government systems. Which would seem to make a right-wing authoritarian kind of thinking seem appealing? And democracy less trustworthy?

In many ways, Poland reminds me of the U.S. perhaps 50 years ago. That seems true in schooling and education--the model seems to be very strict teachers who deliver lots of information that students are expected to remember and repeat--very old school. Certainly there is nowhere near the material wealth enjoyed by many in the U.S. today--wages are much lower, and society just seems less materialistic overall (so maybe NOT like the U.S. of 50 years ago). With our own (mostly male) students, there is a clear thread of sexism, racism, and homophobia that seems the result of ignorance (Poland is not very diverse) rather than malice. Much like, but perhaps not as bad, as U.S. schools in the 1980s when I was a student. And, as in most of the world, there is a cadre of boys undergoing radicalization by the Jordan Petersons of their Internet world, as quickly and as often as they can download the next TikTok video or Instagram post.

But I a hardly more than a visitor here so far, so don't take my word for anything about Polish politics or culture. Except that the Polish people I work in seem to take a certain amount of pride in seeing themselves as a nation of complainers. I myself have not really noticed that Polish people complain more than anyone else, but they seem to like to believe that they do.

And again, I'll point out that Poland has not had an attempted coup in the past 4 years. The U.S. has. That's worth remembering.

Tom

[WszystekPoTrochu]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Prawo i Sprawiedliwość is de nomo a centro conservative party. De facto, the economic policy is more leftist than what our de nomo left did. Social policy is clearly to the right. Views on state intervention are centre-right. They are pro European Union, anti European Federation. Sadly, they've recently formed a habit of doing a stunt that verges on breaking constitutional laws (or crosses the line) from time to time.

Rumours of de facto coup d'etat done in 2015 especially popular in the Netherlands were bollocks. The slow but steady leaning towards un-democratizing is, in fact, true. Much of it is caused by a small strong-right party Solidarna Polska (named Suwerenna Polska since last month) they are in coalition in. The most liberal part of United Right coalition left the ship two years ago.

Many of changes and institutions that they've altered or created score lower in my personal democracy index than pre-changes system.


Now, here's the thing: PiS will not cause Polexit, nor falsify elections. When faced with external pressure, they back down while doing whatever possible to save their position in election polls. As it currently already started happening with the new commission for investigating russkie influences. Is it ok? Of course not. From each such senseless battle with EU and co. we emerge weaker.

I will stress that despite de iure authoritarian tendencies, this party still reacts more to feedback than their seemingly liberal predecessors with 'civic' in party name. And, despite being called populists so many times, their social programmes did not cause inflation nor increased public debt. I will also mention the frequently overlooked fact that it is the liberal predecessor that first broke the rules regarding elections to Constitutional Court, thus opening the door to cancelling their choice. Let's call it a gateway drug to regulation violation.


I will also mention that I highly distrust leading opposition, due to a short series of unwarranted arrests before elections in 2015, intentions to break autonomy of Cracow's university and several other incidents showing to me that, sadly, since we've settled for a de facto bipartisan system, both sides - "conservative" and "liberal" for simplifying - are increasingly populist and undemocratic, each in their own way. I will definitely vote for neither of leaders in the upcoming election. The system has become a good example of that politicians should, like diapers, get changed to new ones on regular basis.

I don't worry for our democracy yet, not more than for German or American except for the personal aspect of course. It still is a sad sight at times.

[Osborne Russell]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Unfortunately that line has side tracked a genuine question.
Whats going on in Poland? Is Rule-of-Law coming apart at the seams or is it the dying gasp of a corrupt government?

Why, or even how, would there be one without the other?

Of course the rule of law requires lawyers, so they adopt the Skuthorp position:

Poland’s government will tell you I’m a Russian stooge. Don’t believe it.
By Radek Sikorski
June 2, 2023 at 1:03 p.m. EDT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/06/02/poland-government-attack-opposition-lex-tusk/

[My] positions are a matter of record. But I mention them here as a way of letting you know: When the current government in Warsaw announces that it’s investigating my activities as a Russian agent, as I fully expect it will soon, that will be only the pretext for a crude political attack on a member of the opposition.

And I won’t be the only one. The ruling Law and Justice party, with an eye to the parliamentary election set for this autumn, recently passed a law establishing a so-called Committee on Russian Influence, which would target any opponents it deems fit.

Even though this committee will operate outside of proper parliamentary and judicial oversight, it will be able to order surveillance and obtain data from the security services, state institutions and private companies. It will have the power to summon witnesses who can turn into suspects in the course of a single hearing. Those summoned will have no right to a lawyer . . .

Duh, if you haven't done anything wrong, why do you need a lawyer? Who do you need to be protected from? Your own government? You're paranoid.

[WX]

Re: What's going on in Poland?

Why, or even how, would there be one without the other?

Of course the rule of law requires lawyers, so they adopt the Skuthorp position:



Duh, if you haven't done anything wrong, why do you need a lawyer? Who do you need to be protected from? Your own government? You're paranoid.

You really need to let that go.