Memorial Day Reflections

[sandtown]

These are the views of a goodly number of veterans . .


Now, I wouldn’t know Dr. John Mandrola if I fell on him, but I do, on occasion, read his posts on Substack, Sensible Medicine. Today, Memorial Day 2023, Dr. Mandrola appropriately paused, in his words, “to remember and honor those who gave their life in the service of this country.” Having “served” in Vietnam as a Naval Aviator, his submission on this occasion piqued my interest.


My comment to Mandrola on Substack:

Sadly, it appears Dr. Mandrola has bought into the bill of goods our citizens have been sold for decades to propagate U.S. hegemony under the guise of fighting and dying for freedom. Not a single one of our country’s founders supported pre-emptive wars of aggression. In fact, they warned repeatedly against entanglements abroad.

Like many surviving Vietnam combat veterans, I dread Memorial Day, but observe it in reverence nonetheless. However, I honor and mourn the loss of not only my friends - like me, mindless tools of U.S. interventionist war-making policies - but also the countless, brave Vietnamese fighters who actually did die for their country and their sovereign freedoms.

---

Let me respond further, as if it wouldn’t be a total waste of time.
Just two points:
· I didn’t “serve” anyone during my deployment in the Gulf of Tonkin, except the war-making foreign policies of the U.S. government. As I’m reminded by a fellow Veterans for Peace activist, I was a “mindless f**king tool of empire.” We all were and should have known better.
· Additionally, I never met a single veteran who “fought for democracy” or for any American’s freedom. During today’s wreath laying ceremony at Arlington Joe Biden remarked that my friends “dared all and gave all’ in defense of America. Not a single friend of mine on Panel 2W of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial “gave their life” during our failed, immoral invasion of Vietnam. Each life was ripped from them by war-makers who couldn’t care less.
Well-meaning, or not, we are deluged this week with posts, submissions and emotives of past sacrifices and current wars, as contributors deliberately or unwittingly, in Dr. Mandrola’s case, perpetuate the inevitabilities and savageries of the next.
My dead friends deserve so much more, in the true spirit of Memorial Day.

[Jim Bow]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

I've got to agree with sandtown. Perhaps the "fight for democracy" applied to WW2, an argument pro and con could be made. I've a friend who did 3 tours in VN. The first was his duty as a WO3 careerist. His two requested tours were because he was worried about "abandoning" his buddies. Never a mention of freedom.

[sandtown]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

I've got to .

It was only in the early 2000's that the militarists hit upon the tactic of declaring that being a good American meant "supporting the troops" no matter what.

I have to admit it was brilliant.

[WX]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

It was only in the early 2000's that the militarists hit upon the tactic of declaring that being a good American meant "supporting the troops" no matter what.

I have to admit it was brilliant.

It made it difficult to support the troops but not the war. The Gulf War and Afghanistan made this abundantly clear to me back then.

[skuthorp]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

"Joe Biden remarked that my friends “dared all and gave all’ in defense of America"
Much the same line was pushed here, despite the published evidence that it was a croc. Aussie young men were chosen using a lottery barrel because the military did not have the capacity to deal with a general call up. and it was a sycophantic political decision anyway. "All the way with LBJ", and repeated by Howard re Iraq and Afghanistan. a55licking at the cost of Aussie lives. Murder in my book

[John Smith]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

WW2 was a necessary war. Hitler had to be stopped. Japan attacked us. Many volunteered and many got drafted.

I have no idea what people who fought and died, or got injured, in Vietnam were fighting for. Certainly Iraq and Afghanistan served no US purpose. I also remember how poorly people returning from Vietnam were treated, and how they were lied to about Agent Orange.

There is a difference, I think, between one who gets drafted into a war and one who volunteers, and by volunteering accepts the risks; people die in wars.

Now it's all volunteers. Still, IMO, it's wrong to send them to war without good reason.

Meanwhile, let us all remember that the USA legalized torture when G.W. invaded two countries and that there are still people held in GITMO who have not been charged with anything.

Our country needs a strong military, but I wonder how many will be enlisting if we keep sending that military into places that serve no purpose.

We absolutely need to remember those who died, and we absolutely need to take the best possible care of those injured, but we need to stop sending them without good reason.

I was of draft age during Vietnam. I got notice to report to 1020 Broad St. Newark NJ for my pre-induction physical. In spite of history of migraines, a heart murmur, and being a bit overweight, I passed. My 1A card came in the mail a few days later.

I took the card and drove to my recruiter's office, as many told me volunteers get treated better. He gave me some aptitude tests and promised me my request to be some sort of journalist with the Navy would be no problem, but I'd have to go back to Broad St. for another physical. My health hadn't changed, but I failed this physical and could not enlist. Then my draft notice came.

I appealed. If I'm not healthy enough to enlist, I can't be healthy enough to be drafted. They agreed. I was done.

[LeeG]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

It was only in the early 2000's that the militarists hit upon the tactic of declaring that being a good American meant "supporting the troops" no matter what.

I have to admit it was brilliant.

That tactic was used during Vietnam but not as prominent given the different times and commitment by middle America. The volunteer military and private militaries used in the neocon wars required more propaganda to keep the 90% with no skin in the war complacent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/25/AR2007052502032.html?referrer=emailarticle

I Lost My Son to a War I Oppose. We Were Both Doing Our Duty.

By Andrew J. Bacevich
Sunday, May 27, 2007
Parents who lose children, whether through accident or illness, inevitably wonder what they could have done to prevent their loss. When my son was killed in Iraq earlier this month at age 27, I found myself pondering my responsibility for his death.

Among the hundreds of messages that my wife and I have received, two bore directly on this question. Both held me personally culpable, insisting that my public opposition to the war had provided aid and comfort to the enemy. Each said that my son's death came as a direct result of my antiwar writings.

This may seem a vile accusation to lay against a grieving father. But in fact, it has become a staple of American political discourse, repeated endlessly by those keen to allow President Bush a free hand in waging his war. By encouraging "the terrorists," opponents of the Iraq conflict increase the risk to U.S. troops. Although the First Amendment protects antiwar critics from being tried for treason, it provides no protection for the hardly less serious charge of failing to support the troops -- today's civic equivalent of dereliction of duty.

GW and his flag waving cohorts put new flowers on the graves of Vietnam then pissed on them. The Lessons of Vietnam? Fewer losses (hide them in private military contracts) and better tv coverage.

[David G]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

Barker's bon mot: 'War is but a continuation of diplomacy by other means'... used to be quite true.

But these days, as part of the general shift toward a concentration of wealth and corporate power... 'corporate greed' has overtaken 'diplomacy' as the operative phrase.

[CWSmith]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

WW2 was a necessary war. Hitler had to be stopped. Japan attacked us.

Yes and no. It is important that we go back and look at the actions that led to that war.

The allies took a punitive approach to Germany at the end of WWI. They humiliated them and ground them down. Hitler's rise was a reaction to that act. At the end of WWII, the allies took a very different approach and helped Germany rebuild a democratic society and today it is one of our strongest allies.

Corporate greed led American foreign policy to cut off the oil fields to the Japanese depriving them of much-needed resources rather than share them. This led to Japan's involvement in WWII. Fortunately, we learned from our mistakes and helped Japan rebuild a democratic society that lives in peace with its neighbors.

Neither Germany nor Japan were right, but their actions were predictable. We need to understand how our actions led to WWII so we don't repeat them in the future.

[sandtown]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

Yes and no. It is important that we go back and look at the actions that led to that war.
Neither Germany nor Japan were right, but their actions were predictable. We need to understand how our actions led to WWII so we don't repeat them in the future.

Go ahead, say it. Ukraine

[CWSmith]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

Go ahead, say it. Ukraine

I'm not sure. What are you thinking?

My limited understanding (all my understanding is limited) is that Ukraine was not admitted to NATO because of massive internal corruption. The current president was elected to reform corruption and was doing his job when the invasion occurred. (Remember, Putin thought he had bought off the Ukraine generals, but his own internal corruption prevented the money from getting there. Now he's fighting some of the best fighters in Europe.) He wasn't elected to be a wartime president.

So, did US actions cause the Ukraine invasion? Is that your point?

[paxtonm]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

Interesting observations. In my view, war represents a few things. First, it's a manifestation of the greatest failure of humankind. Next, I'm always troubled by the "thanks for your service line." I count a lot of veterans as friends. A lot of them are damaged. One, a sniper in Iraq, still dives under a bench when someone drops a plank in the shop. Another has such a long roster of health issues from 31 years in the USCG that he carries his meds in a daypack. I have my own PTSD issues, not connected with the military. But even as I hold my tongue and don't parrot the "thanks for your service line," my real inclination is to say "you sacrificed part of yourself to feed the insatiable machine that is the military-industrial complex, and you accomplished nothing toward the benefit of humankind, you poor, delusional sap." Cruel words, and I will never utter them, but we all need to understand that our state of endless war is rooted in the Almighty Dollar, and that some people don't mind blood on their hands in fealty to acquisition of power and wealth. That's the real tragedy.

[sandtown]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

So, did US actions cause the Ukraine invasion? Is that your point?

That bears zero resemblance to anything that I wrote.

[sandtown]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

Interesting observations. In my view, war represents a few things. First, it's a manifestation of the greatest failure of humankind. Next, I'm always troubled by the "thanks for your service line." I count a lot of veterans as friends. A lot of them are damaged. One, a sniper in Iraq, still dives under a bench when someone drops a plank in the shop. Another has such a long roster of health issues from 31 years in the USCG that he carries his meds in a daypack. I have my own PTSD issues, not connected with the military. But even as I hold my tongue and don't parrot the "thanks for your service line," my real inclination is to say "you sacrificed part of yourself to feed the insatiable machine that is the military-industrial complex, and you accomplished nothing toward the benefit of humankind, you poor, delusional sap." Cruel words, and I will never utter them, but we all need to understand that our state of endless war is rooted in the Almighty Dollar, and that some people don't mind blood on their hands in fealty to acquisition of power and wealth. That's the real tragedy.

Hang in there - we 'uns are rootin' for ya.

The US Vets Admin has done some interesting research on "moral injury" - you might check it out.

Many of us in Vets For Peace deal with the pain by trying to put a stop to the madness. It helps.

[Ted Hoppe]

Re: Memorial Day Reflections

Snowflake reflections of a lot of old men who can not see the challenges ahead and the sacrifices that people have done and are doing.

I took a moment to reflect on the friends that i served with that I lost delivering peace and freedom. Rather than tear up the sacrifices of those people - we should reflect on what they gave up so we can be so cavalier.