Religion's role

[John Smith]

Re: Religion's role

Your position seems to be that people are impudent and cannot act to better their situation. Cannot step out of the way of a hole in the path. Or, avoid the pitfall from the start.
Let me tell you that they can.

People open businesses where there are Blue Laws. Do you think they choose this and feel forced to operate under them? Or, do you think they weigh the myriad variables and decide its a good place to operate? And, if that is the case, if they agree to the prevailing laws, they are not forced.

Kevin


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That's in no way my position. You keep misdefining my position, then arguing about your definition of it.

Do this or else is in every sense of the word being forced to do whichever one in that position does. He was forced to close or he was forced to move. Neither was of his own free will. It was an ultimatum with the weight of the government behind it.

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Religion's role

Your position seems to be that people are impudent

People like that deserve all they get.

[Keith Wilson]

Re: Religion's role

I'm inclined to say religions all are designed in some way to make women second class people.

And you'd be wrong. Try that crap in a Unitarian church; it will not go well. Replace 'all' with 'some', or even 'most', then it'd be accurate.

Also, most religions are pretty old, and not all that long ago almost every society made women second-class in some way. Religions tend to reflect the values of the society they developed in.

[David G]

Re: Religion's role

I'm inclined to say religions all are designed in some way to make women second class people.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?294056-New-Forum-Subsection&highlight=

[Breakaway]

That's in no way my position. You keep misdefining my position, then arguing about your definition of it.

Do this or else is in every sense of the word being forced to do whichever one in that position does. He was forced to close or he was forced to move. Neither was of his own free will. It was an ultimatum with the weight of the government behind it.

There are people who open businesses after the Blue Laws have been in effect. How do you account for them?

Kevin


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[John Smith]

Re: Religion's role

And you'd be wrong. Try that crap in a Unitarian church; it will not go well. Replace 'all' with 'some', or even 'most', then it'd be accurate.

Also, most religions are pretty old, and not all that long ago almost every society made women second-class in some way. Religions tend to reflect the values of the society they developed in.

Okay; most I'm sure it's more than some.

[John Smith]

Re: Religion's role

There are people who open businesses after the Blue Laws have been in effect. How do you account for them?

Kevin


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That's their choice and their business, no pun intended. Is that not decidedly different from having a business and being given the ultimatum to either close on Sunday or move?

[skuthorp]

Re: Religion's role

Remember when discussing religion that they are all compromised constructions of mostly men.
Religiosity is what nearly all of them are about, any putative 'god' is just a hook to hang their dogma and authority on.

[WI-Tom]

Re: Religion's role

Thats hardly the case. Being mugged is a case of do this or suffer.( or run or fight) It is thrust upon you.

With the Blue Laws, you can open your business elsewhere. Location is a choice you must make in any event. You want to choose a location. YOU initiate the process of choice, unlike in a mugging, where, as you indicate, choice is limited.

leave the apples alone. We are speaking oranges here.

Kevin

Kevin,

you are engaged in some highly motivated--and logically ridiculous--"reasoning" about all this. Choice is ALWAYS limited. What if you don't have the means to relocate your business? What if your family lives in the town and you need to support them, and can't move? What if your partner's job is in this town and you need to stay. What if you stay open and get fined, or lose your business license? All clear cases of "Do this or suffer."

It's just as easy to tell the mugging victim "Just choose not to hand over your wallet--problem solved!" as it is to make the case you are making.

What is it that makes you so afraid to acknowledge the obvious--that some laws do indeed force religious beliefs on others?

How can you say "Every law forces things on others" and also say "Blue laws don't force anything on others"? Nonsensical. Ridiculous. Patently absurd.

There's no "apples and oranges" here. There are a bunch of apples, and you keep arguing that some of them are oranges. Because, I guess, such a conclusion supports what you already believe, so it doesn't bother you that it contradicts reality.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

Re: Religion's role

Who decides 'essential', and under what right would you require a business close one day a week, and why the same day?

John,

I have to say, Wrocław has laws that close almost all businesses on Sundays. All the supermarkets, shops, malls, etc. And I think it is a very good thing for the culture and society. A day free of materialistic consumerism benefits us all, in many ways. Some of them hard to quantify. But I really like it, for reasons that have nothing to do with religion.

Tom

[John Smith]

Re: Religion's role

John,

I have to say, Wrocław has laws that close almost all businesses on Sundays. All the supermarkets, shops, malls, etc. And I think it is a very good thing for the culture and society. A day free of materialistic consumerism benefits us all, in many ways. Some of them hard to quantify. But I really like it, for reasons that have nothing to do with religion.

Tom

Would you, because you like it, force it upon others? Some things that people need to buy may not wait until tomorrow.

I wonder how it would play if an NFL team moved into a city, and that city decided to pass a law that no one could play football on Sunday.

Of course, Sunday is not the holy day of all religions, so, in order to not discriminate, I guess all stores would have to close on the holy day of all religions?

[WI-Tom]

Re: Religion's role

Would you, because you like it, force it upon others?

Hmm... Would I, because I like laws against physical assault and drunk driving, force them upon others? Sure. Absolutely I would force those laws on others. Because they promote the general welfare. Just as, I think, a law requiring shops to close one day per week can do.

Laws force individuals to trade a reduction in individual freedoms for an increase in (what voters and lawmakers perceive is) the general welfare of society. That's how it works. I would HATE to live in a country that did not use laws to force individuals to do this. Somalia, anyone?

Would you rather have laws, or warlords? Either way you are getting forced to do things. I know what my choice is.

Tom

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Religion's role

Just as, I think, a law requiring shops to close one day per week can do.

Tom

I think that this thread needs another case in point to use as an example.
It very much depends on what sort of shop.
If it is a Mon and Pop store run by a family with adult kids helping out, it does not matter. A bigger store with enough staff to roster a shift system delivering a 40-hour week for the employees whist opening at convenient hours 7 days a week can benefit the employees.
In the UK, Sunday opening was banned so that shop workers could have a day off and to attend church. Of course the wealthy lawmakers exempted people on whom they relied like newspaper employees, taxi drivers and similar service providers.

[John Smith]

Re: Religion's role

Hmm... Would I, because I like laws against physical assault and drunk driving, force them upon others? Sure. Absolutely I would force those laws on others. Because they promote the general welfare. Just as, I think, a law requiring shops to close one day per week can do.

Laws force individuals to trade a reduction in individual freedoms for an increase in (what voters and lawmakers perceive is) the general welfare of society. That's how it works. I would HATE to live in a country that did not use laws to force individuals to do this. Somalia, anyone?

Would you rather have laws, or warlords? Either way you are getting forced to do things. I know what my choice is.

Tom

I appreciate this, but it's really outside the scope of the subject at hand.

I've stated repeatedly in this thread that laws/regulations should be enacted in insure the public welfare in some way, such as keeping our roads safe with traffic regulations, requiring a license, etc.

Laws that impose/force one's religious beliefs upon others are not in that category. It would be just as wrong to force someone who has a store and whose beliefs don't allow work on Sunday to open on Sunday.

[Lew Barrett]

Re: Religion's role

It's not complex. For most of recorded history, religion equals crowd control.