Religion's role

[Andrew2]

Re: Religion's role

Unless I'm mistaken, John, I've at least twice in recent posts started by saying that one needn't be religious to have a moral compass. NEED NOT.

Did you miss that? As you've at least twice now said that religious people must think that...

It is not difficult. Lots of good people are doing great stuff. If they are religious, not too important. BUT there are far too many religious people causing harm in this world and the past history.
Breaks down into those who are good and others, less good and power hungry. Most of the off shoots of the established Church were a protest of the corruption rampant in the middle ages. The pilgrims legged it to the new world not to allow religious freedom, but to be able to practice and enforce, their own extreme version.
Islam was an offshoot of established norms. But very war orientated, shaped huge problems with those that liked conflict. Of course, some conflicts, so two versions are about and they hate each other. Depressing.

[CWSmith]

Re: Religion's role

It is not difficult. Lots of good people are doing great stuff. If they are religious, not too important. BUT there are far too many religious people causing harm in this world and the past history.

Actually, there are far too many getting headlines. There are legions of good people trying to live moral lives of generosity toward others, but they don't make the headlines.

As for history, we all belong to one group or another and every group has had their time in history that brings shame on us all. Religion should be the exception to that, but it is not.

[John Smith]

Re: Religion's role

Actually, there are far too many getting headlines. There are legions of good people trying to live moral lives of generosity toward others, but they don't make the headlines.

As for history, we all belong to one group or another and every group has had their time in history that brings shame on us all. Religion should be the exception to that, but it is not.

Yes, and no. "Squeaky wheel" syndrome. However, we are living in a time where our supreme court is making decisions, I'd argue, based on their religious beliefs rather than our constitution. It's also true they lied (a sin, no) in their confirmation hearings to get on the court.

I remember when my grandparents, being good Catholics, never ate meat on Friday. Always fish. I had no problem with that. I would have a problem if the church tried to pass a law against eating meat on Friday, or requiring eating fish on Friday.

[RFNK]

Re: Religion's role

Sigh...

All those things you claim are NOT religious bigotry? I agree, they're not. Nor did I cite even one of them as examples of why I conclude some here are suffering from that form of bias.

Not did you address even the first thing I DID mention about why I reached that conclusion.

And no. We do NOT 'all accept that...' If you actually believe that, you haven't been following closely. Phrases like 'religion is darkness' spring to mind. Or 'all religions <fill in the blank with something negative>' -- which has been stated repeatedly.

More emphatic sigh ...

Let me put it in simpler terms. There is actually more evidence for the existence of a flying spaghetti monster than there is of any god. Firstly, we know that monsters exist - both our countries elected one as leader fairly recently. Secondly, we know that they can fly these days. And both are, er, overweight so it's highly likely they consume plenty of spaghetti and, y'know, y'are what you eat. But what evidence is there of any god, spirit etc. at all?

Nevertheless, we are continually subjected, as a species, to regulation, often harmful regulation, based on unproven beliefs. If it can't be proven, there's no evidence of its existence, at all, then surely you can agree that it's nonsense? We can admire any good things that occur due to these beliefs, of course but, if religion is the reason why all these good things happen, how do you explain all the good things that happen without religion?

And if there's really power in prayer, how do you explain India ever losing a cricket match against us?

[John Smith]

Re: Religion's role

More emphatic sigh ...

Let me put it in simpler terms. There is actually more evidence for the existence of a flying spaghetti monster than there is of any god. Firstly, we know that monsters exist - both our countries elected one as leader fairly recently. Secondly, we know that they can fly these days. And both are, er, overweight so it's highly likely they consume plenty of spaghetti and, y'know, y'are what you eat. But what evidence is there of any god, spirit etc. at all?

Nevertheless, we are continually subjected, as a species, to regulation, often harmful regulation, based on unproven beliefs. If it can't be proven, there's no evidence of its existence, at all, then surely you can agree that it's nonsense? We can admire any good things that occur due to these beliefs, of course but, if religion is the reason why all these good things happen, how do you explain all the good things that happen without religion?

And if there's really power in prayer, how do you explain India ever losing a cricket match against us?

We could ask why God fails to protect people inside a house of worship: He could render the gun inoperable, but that's not my intent with this thread.

Facebook, for example, has this nice feature: you can open a group for people who share your hobby or your religion. But they seem not to do that. Instead they post religion on the common 'board'.

As to the existence of God, the burden is on them, but they are free, far as I'm concerned, to believe as they wish. It's when they impose their beliefs on others when I have a problem.

[RFNK]

Re: Religion's role

Religious threads are a bit like religion - they have unintended consequences.

But if we go back to your opening post, I guess I just don't agree with it. I think religion is nonsense but I don't see any of them only teaching hate and I think that's rarely the intention. I think religion actually does more harm than good but religions generally also contain a lot of positive intent and there are very many good people who are religious. Mad but good

[David G]

Re: Religion's role

More emphatic sigh ...

Let me put it in simpler terms. There is actually more evidence for the existence of a flying spaghetti monster than there is of any god. Firstly, we know that monsters exist - both our countries elected one as leader fairly recently. Secondly, we know that they can fly these days. And both are, er, overweight so it's highly likely they consume plenty of spaghetti and, y'know, y'are what you eat. But what evidence is there of any god, spirit etc. at all?

Nevertheless, we are continually subjected, as a species, to regulation, often harmful regulation, based on unproven beliefs. If it can't be proven, there's no evidence of its existence, at all, then surely you can agree that it's nonsense? We can admire any good things that occur due to these beliefs, of course but, if religion is the reason why all these good things happen, how do you explain all the good things that happen without religion?

And if there's really power in prayer, how do you explain India ever losing a cricket match against us?

Let's stick to our muttons, shall we? What you objected to was my characterization of some of the attitudes here as 'religious bigotry'.

So far, I don't see you making any cogent argument that it's not.

Whether 'god' exists or not is not relevant. And we, as societies, typically encourage that belief, and the practice of worship and discovery practiced in churches... in various public policy ways. While the U.S. - for instance - takes no official position on whether god exists, and/or what form she takes, we HAVE concluded that religion is a good thing, and we'll encourage it. So... that avenue is a non-starter. Not sure why you even brought it up.

As others have said, the regulations you are railing against made as a matter of public policy. Whether those policies are informed and shaped by the private religious (or just moral/ethical) beliefs is not a problem. As long as they are headed in the right direction... policywise. Governancewise. I'm not sure whose comments you are referring to when you ask, "if religion is the reason why all these good things happen, how do you explain all the good things that happen without religion?" I have NOT seen anyone suggesting that religion IS the sole reason good things happen. Have you? I doubt it, and declare this argument faulty. A 'straw-man' dodge that is akin to lying. If I'm wrong... then who here says that? Quote them, please.

You speak as if someone is attempting to force you to adopt religious beliefs of some sort. That would be odd. WHO is doing that? What evidence do you offer?

Meantime... NONE of what you said explain or excuse the behavior I've called bigotry. Do you think such bigoty is ok?

[sonofswen]

Re: Religion's role

While we're at it, F organized gymnastics, and the Boy Scouts, and public (and private) school teachers. All of which secular organizations commit similar crimes (including obstruction) at higher rates.

While we're at it, let's also F the universities, and workplaces. Where pretty much any woman you're on good enough terms to have the conversation with will have her own stories of attempted or actual abuse.

So were you abused by a catholic priest also?

[skuthorp]

Re: Religion's role

Only spent 6 months in a religious based school and we agreed that the arrangement suited neither of us. The only abuse was hazing by the seniors, cured by a liberal application of a cricket bat. Hence the termination of the arrangement.

[John Smith]

Re: Religion's role

Everyone is entitled to their 'opinion'. Forcing one's 'opinion' on another is something I frown on.

I have no objection if those who wish to pray before final exams, before a football game, etc. but the school ought not expect all to pray and ought not sponsor the prayer, unless the school itself is a religious institution.

People have the option to go to church or not. Preaching in the church is one thing. Preaching to groups outside of the church is another.

This thread was not intended to be an argument over religion, but one of the rights of others to be respected.

[Breakaway]

So lets be clear. You do not want preaching outside a house of worship.

Do you also want those who advocate for environmental change or the rights of women, just as examples, to remain behind closed doors as well?

Kevin




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[John Smith]

Re: Religion's role

So lets be clear. You do not want preaching outside a house of worship.

Do you also want those who advocate for environmental change or the rights of women, just as examples, to remain behind closed doors as well?

Kevin




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Let's try this: Religious beliefs are opinions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one has the right, IMO, to force their opinion upon others.

Preaching outside a house of worship is okay as long as the audience is not captive. Writing laws that impact all based on religious beliefs is simply wrong. Is it not religion driving the hatred of gays and trans?

Marriage, if we're honest, is a LEGAL contract, not a religious one. The ceremony may be performed by one of a cloth only because state grants the priest, rabbi, etc. the authority to do so. The license is issued by the state. The certificate is issued by the state. If there's a divorce, it's granted by the state.

I appreciate some people hold very serious religious beliefs. SOME people who hold religious beliefs seem not to realize, or not to care, that others don't share those beliefs.

Is all this really so difficult to understand? If you're a member of a sports team, you have an absolute right to pray before the game starts. Do you have the right to make all your teammates pray if they hold different beliefs, or no beliefs?

Is there any evidence that praying before playing leads to more wins or fewer injuries? If God hears all prayers, must they be said out loud?

[David G]

Re: Religion's role

[David G]

Re: Religion's role

[RFNK]

Re: Religion's role

Let's stick to our muttons, shall we? What you objected to was my characterization of some of the attitudes here as 'religious bigotry'.

So far, I don't see you making any cogent argument that it's not.

Whether 'god' exists or not is not relevant. And we, as societies, typically encourage that belief, and the practice of worship and discovery practiced in churches... in various public policy ways. While the U.S. - for instance - takes no official position on whether god exists, and/or what form she takes, we HAVE concluded that religion is a good thing, and we'll encourage it. So... that avenue is a non-starter. Not sure why you even brought it up.

As others have said, the regulations you are railing against made as a matter of public policy. Whether those policies are informed and shaped by the private religious (or just moral/ethical) beliefs is not a problem. As long as they are headed in the right direction... policywise. Governancewise. I'm not sure whose comments you are referring to when you ask, "if religion is the reason why all these good things happen, how do you explain all the good things that happen without religion?" I have NOT seen anyone suggesting that religion IS the sole reason good things happen. Have you? I doubt it, and declare this argument faulty. A 'straw-man' dodge that is akin to lying. If I'm wrong... then who here says that? Quote them, please.

You speak as if someone is attempting to force you to adopt religious beliefs of some sort. That would be odd. WHO is doing that? What evidence do you offer?

Meantime... NONE of what you said explain or excuse the behavior I've called bigotry. Do you think such bigoty is ok?

Wow! Beneath you David. Chill?