Ukraine

[gypsie]

Re: Ukraine

.....Russia for right or wrong believes there is an existential threat on their doorstep .....

No it doesn't.

There is no such threat and Russia does not believe that this threat exists, not one small infinitesimal bit. It has never been the rationale for the invasion. That line there is Russian propaganda abroad.

Russia doesn't even defend its borders, it knows the risk of any military invasion from the west is zero. Infact, presently, NATO is continuing to protect Russia by restricting Ukraine's access to long range weapons.
Look how easy it was for a bunch of guys in a few jeeps to go into Russia and occupy a well populated area. It took Russia two days to offer resistance. That is not a people who believe there is an existential threat on their borders.

That is a deluded lie to serve the justification of a deluded sense of peace that is prepared to sacrifice every Ukrainian - but avoid blaming Russia at all costs.
Because? Blaming Russia means the USA is not at fault, and there is this bizarre cohort in the US that reall really really wants the US to be the bad guy, and for it to be omipotent.


For Lithuania and Finland et al to join NATO - now that is the symptom of a people who believe there is an existential threat on their border.

[L.W. Baxter]

Re: Ukraine

There is no way that Russia will lose this war...

russia has already lost this war

[Paul G.]

Re: Ukraine

Paul G,
Get your facts right, NATO has been on Russia's borders for DECADES, in the Baltic and along the Norwegian border. All these nations ASKED to join NATO for fear of Russian aggression, the Baltic states more recently, and Norway from memory of the Russian occupation of the north in the immediate aftermath of WWII.

Please read a little history before you waste electrons and my time with drivel like this.

Kindest regards,

Drivel? put me on ignore then and dont respond but dont waste your electrons with selective pro war propaganda. The Russian federation is not the Soviet Union, Russia is not communist- Quite rightly the baltic states reacted against the Soviets, but this is now and since the fall of the wall Russia has wanted a neutral buffer between east and west. IMHO Ukraine should have declared neutrality many years ago and it would be a very prosperous country.

You clearly havent bothered to read any history yourself:

Flanked by Europe and Asia, Russia has experienced three major invasions in its history: by the Mongols in the 13th century, Napoleon in 1812, and Hitler in 1941. “In Russia, survival of the state itself has been a primary concern historically,” Carleton says.
War permeates the broader culture, he says. Take the biggest holiday in Russia, Victory Day on May 9, which commemorates the end of World War II. In ceremonies throughout the country—across its 11 time zones—millions of people parade with photos of their relatives who fought in that war, in which Russia suffered an estimated 14 million military and civilian deaths. It’s more than a veterans day ceremony—television stations play war movies throughout the week—it takes over the popular consciousness.

This is what you are dealing with, the US in contrast has never been invaded and never will be due to geography, it will never have a hostile state on its borders so the US psyche simply has no reference point. If your position is so dumbed down that Putin is Hitler and Russia is hell bent on imperialism then no further discussion is possible and your thread may continue its war porn backslapping.

Peace is going to occur, the question is how to prevent more deaths between then and now.

[Paul G.]

Re: Ukraine

russia has already lost this war

The facts do not bear this out. I wish that there was a decisive victory very early on, it really doesnt matter to me what side wins but the quicker is over the better. I am sick of war, my whole life has had a backdrop of war- as child it WW1 and 2 cultural artifacts, Vietnam, the Gulf wars, Afghanistan and all I can say is that I am sick of it.

[L.W. Baxter]

Re: Ukraine

you might as well say, "no way the u.s. will not find wmd's in iraq."

it's a done deal. all that remains is lots of unneccessary suffering.

[Paul G.]

Re: Ukraine

I guess I am tired of it, endless war and killing, the armchair warriors with no skin in the game.

By the way i am no fan of Putin, and domestic support for this war is low, he should not have invaded but it would not be unfair to say there is a lack of good faith and trust on both sides

[L.W. Baxter]

Re: Ukraine

if you are waiting on good faith and trust on both sides you need to find another planet.

[gypsie]

Re: Ukraine

For the USA conspiracy theorists, have a listen to this young Russian woman from about 3mins 30secs in.
At about 4:50 she gets into her stride and lays it out - matter of fact.

[L.W. Baxter]

Re: Ukraine

well put.

over nothing.

[L.W. Baxter]

Re: Ukraine

recall what v. putin had to say the week after the invasion.

he aimed to "de-nazify" ukraine. in other words, nothing. his [stated] goal was inane.

by your words thou shalt be judged.

[gypsie]

Re: Ukraine

......IMHO Ukraine should have declared neutrality many years ago and it would be a very prosperous country.

It tried - it even gave Russia all its nuclear arms. Fat lot of good that did them.

Your list of times ol' Russia was invaded is very blind on Grozny. I mention that specifically because the Russians invented a verb in that particular city - you may have heard of it - to groznify.
Friendly neighbours hey? You just can't buy that kind of love.

Poor ol' Russia.
Like the wife beater who is unlucky to have a spouse who presses his buttons. Poor Ivan the wife beater..... the things he is expected to put up with. If only she'd lie down and be quiet. And, society thinks he's the bad guy!! ppfffttt.
"Look what you made me do!"


You're sick of war Paul C. You're just blind to why it continues. You blame the victim, you believe the victim submitting is going to bring peace. In your humble opinion Russia isn't wrong for invading, Ukraine is wrong for not rolling over at the very beginning. Just like Latvia would be wrong for not capitulating next, or Lithuania? Or Chechnya and Georgia before them - or the 3.5million Syrian refugees in Turkey. What's that piece of Moldova being held hostage for? How many times does Russia have to invade, and kill, before you'll consider that maybe Russia should be stopped? How many Aleppo's and Mariupol's will it take? Well, Ukraine is what 'Russia being stopped' looks like. Unfortunately its what lasting peace might look like, for no other reason than RUSSIA.


PS, the US was invaded.

[skuthorp]

Re: Ukraine

[QUOTE=Paul G.;6862870]The facts do not bear this out. I wish that there was a decisive victory very early on, it really doesnt matter to me what side wins but the quicker is over the better. I am sick of war, my whole life has had a backdrop of war- as child it WW1 and 2 cultural artifacts, Vietnam, the Gulf wars, Afghanistan and all I can say is that I am sick of it.[/QUOTE
America took over from the Brits and Europe, Russia has been doing it forever, and the Chinese are just getting into their stride just ahead of India, climate change and their demographics.
War, humans are like that.

[JayInOz]

Re: Ukraine

Military aid to Ukraine is continuing unabated. NATO, the EU, most of the worlds advanced nations have sworn to see it through. Finland has declared herself ready for war. Poland already has fighters at the front. Russia has already lost. A lot more people will die before it's over but it will end with Russia defeated and humiliated. Putin is to blame. He must be removed and punished. The only openly vocal critics of Putin on Russia's media seem to be hard liners who want him replaced for being too soft. They want Ukraine smashed to oblivion. But getting rid of Putin isn't the end of it. Sanctions and reparations need to cripple Russia for years to come. Hard times for the citizenry, but they can't be allowed to rearm and try again in the foreseeable future. The punishment must fit the crime. Russia needs to change course. I don't think the world had been so united for a single cause in my life time. Size and bluster don't always triumph- I wonder what China is thinking about the global response to Putins expansionist dreaming. JayInOz

[gypsie]

Re: Ukraine

Looks like Erdogan is moving aside on Sweden membership to NATO.
Elections over, there was nothing to see after all. Who knew?

[Chip-skiff]

Re: Ukraine

I guess I am tired of it, endless war and killing, the armchair warriors with no skin in the game.

So being personally responsible for killing confers some particular moral weight to your opinion?

What war did you fight? What was your body count?

Men, women, children?