Ukraine

[sandtown]

Re: Ukraine

You conveniently ignored the rest of his comment.

Well, his comment is a bit unclear in spots, but what part of "legal president" do you not get ??

And you also apparently deny the obvious fact that the US was heavily involved in the coup as well,

in spite of the photos of Nuland, McCain and others on the scene.

Your ideology blinds you to reality.

[Paul Pless]

Re: Ukraine

Your ideology blinds you to reality.

ironical post of the day

[L.W. Baxter]

Re: Ukraine

if one characterizes the u.s. involvement in 2014 as "heavy involvement", i wonder how one characterized the armed invasion by russia in february of 2022? what did one say in february, march, april, may...

*looks back through thread* not a peep. a handful of posts critical of the u.s.. that's your record, sandtown.

[sandtown]

Re: Ukraine

^ Can anyone else hear "Na na na, I'm not listening" ?

Some "content" you have there.

[L.W. Baxter]

Re: Ukraine

Some "content" you have there.

six months of war before you started providing your "content", sandtown. took that long for memory to fade and the opinionators to frame the war to your liking.

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Ukraine

. . . .

The "content" of my post was brief, to the point, and accurate, with a side of humour.

[dutchpp]

Re: Ukraine

I wonder if propaganda qualifies as content.

[sandtown]

Re: Ukraine

six months of war before you started providing your "content", sandtown. took that long for memory to fade and the opinionators to frame the war to your liking.

Did you see that article in the NYT yesterday about massive corruption in the Ukrainian courts ??

Not that it is any of your business, but I root for and support Ukraine, and hope they get the best deal possible in the negotiations.

But it is insane to have a goal of taking Russia out of the Great Game, as Lloyd Austin suggested.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Re: Ukraine

Zelensky is in Japan at the G7 meeting - smart move, he can embarrass both Lula and Modi.

He called in at the Arab League Summit on the way. The Middle East lives on Ukrainian wheat…

Meanwhile Prigozhin says his criminals have “taken Bakhmut” .

Since the UAF have been taking ground to the North and the South of Bakhmut, one does reflect on Stalingrad.

[J.Madison]

Re: Ukraine

They have been claiming to have "taken Bakhmut" for months, although they are admittedly much closer now than ever. The city is a complete wasteland. Stalingrad indeed.

I wonder if it will be rebuilt. The Ukrainians have shown great capacity to rebuild, like this street in Bucha where some of the worst atrocities against civilians took place. Photos taken roughly a year apart.

[Lew Barrett]

Re: Ukraine

Did you see that article in the NYT yesterday about massive corruption in the Ukrainian courts ??

Not that it is any of your business, but I root for and support Ukraine, and hope they get the best deal possible in the negotiations.

But it is insane to have a goal of taking Russia out of the Great Game, as Lloyd Austin suggested.

They will only get "their best deal" by kicking Russia out of their country. After that, I'm sure an arrangement can be made.

[CollinR]

Re: Ukraine

Zelensky was elected on an anti-corruption platform. It therefor follows that there were corrupt people in positions of power when he was elected. If Zelensky is true to his word (a novel prospect indeed for a politician) it further follows that such corrupt people will be being weeded out as time goes by. That any-one should then use news of such actions to imply that Ukraine continues to be a corrupt nation and should be condemned for it is mind-bogglingly stupid....or deluded.

[Lew Barrett]

Re: Ukraine

Did you see that article in the NYT yesterday about massive corruption in the Ukrainian courts ??

Not that it is any of your business, but I root for and support Ukraine, and hope they get the best deal possible in the negotiations.

But it is insane to have a goal of taking Russia out of the Great Game, as Lloyd Austin suggested.

There is a lot of corruption at many levels in Ukraine. They are after all a post Soviet nation having inherited every Soviet trait, including military style, legal systems, and the rest. Indeed, many Ukrainians both those loyal to Kiev and those 'claiming' to be, complain that Ukraine is rife with corruption and progress in correction is slow. Some point to the initial failures to protect the border with Belarus, thus pointing to complicit government officials. There are similar complaints about the situation that resulted in the fall of Mariupol, the failure of officials to blow bridges, etc. Some of these cases have been brought clearly to light and justice, others remain unresolved. I think there are many reasons to explain this not the least of which is that the country has been at war since 2014 and also that erasing these legacies is a very consuming thing.

Understanding this situation requires a bit more nuanced discussion of both the history and the nature of institutional memory than I am up for at the moment. When Zelensky was elected on a largely anti-corruption slate I wondered how difficult it might be to root out such deep culturally imbedded practices in "peace" time, never mind while on a full war footing under martial law. I suspect it will take a successful conclusion to this war and a greater degree of confidence and security before Ukraine is truly able to address and resolve the bulk of these concerns but there's no reason to believe it's not the high priority for the nation that Zelensky says it is. I consider citing issues of corruption in Ukraine as a reason to not support the war effort at the same time both obvious and naive.

[L.W. Baxter]

Re: Ukraine

Zelensky was elected on an anti-corruption platform. It therefor follows that there were corrupt people in positions of power when he was elected. If Zelensky is true to his word (a novel prospect indeed for a politician) it further follows that such corrupt people will be being weeded out as time goes by. That any-one should then use news of such actions to imply that Ukraine continues to be a corrupt nation and should be condemned for it is mind-bogglingly stupid....or deluded.

may be stupid and deluded, but it has its own logic.

it suits a world view, a posture. in the case of sandtown, the attitude that the "u.s. blob" can't operate in support of the correct side in any conflict. every event, every circumstance everywhere, must be made to fit.

any detail--even if counterfacutal, like "30% of arable land" etc--that can be used to erode the moral standing of ukraine erodes the self-evident proposition that the west is standing on moral ground in supporting ukraine against russia, and creates a new reality, in which, ultimately, zekenskyy and ukraine are opportunist, immoral, warmongering proxies of the blob--practicing for war with china!--and russia is fighting for its existence against the u.s./nato.

[sandtown]

Re: Ukraine

There is a lot of corruption at many levels in Ukraine. They are after all a post Soviet nation having inherited every Soviet trait, including military style, legal systems, and the rest. Indeed, many Ukrainians both those loyal to Kiev and those 'claiming' to be, complain that Ukraine is rife with corruption and progress in correction is slow.

Understanding this situation requires a bit more nuanced discussion of both the history and the nature of institutional memory than I am up for at the moment. When Zelensky was elected on a largely anti-corruption slate I wondered.

Well yes, war offers great opportunities for corruption, but it is unclear that Zelensky is doing much about it. The CIA is reportedly not happy.

And Zelensky has a very high end villa in Italy (he has declared it) that he is alleged to have rented to Russians.

He also has overseas accounts . .