Ukraine

[johnw]

Re: Ukraine

I'm done on this topic.

Pete

So, you spew a bunch of stuff at me, then announce the conversation over? That's lame. You can't explain why, in what you term an 'information vacuum,' you know of motives and stated goals that don't appear in the public record.

I think it's just as well you stop trying to justify this contradiction.

[johnw]

Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by HRDavies


You could try Smedley Butler next but I know you won't, too set in your self-righteous indignation. Yeah, "remarkable". Reality is often "remarkable" to people who live in their own self-satisfied sanctimonious bubbles.

[ERGR]

Re: Ukraine

Ukraine has applied for NATO membership now, as a direct consequence of Russia annexing more parts of Ukraine. A common defence towards Russia is the best course for states bordering Russia.
/Erik

[SKIP KILPATRICK]

Re: Ukraine

Release the Leopards!

The Leopard 2's that is!

[heimlaga]

Re: Ukraine

some are arguing that it is within the power of the u.s. to mediate peace between russia and ukraine. that it is the desire of "the u.s." that the war continues, and for that reason, the war continues. etc..

So they say. However for USA to stop the war permanently would involve sending troops to Ukraine and missiles to Moscow. Within days we would have a full blown Tienhaara (two steps worse than Armageddon) all along the western border of Russia.
Those who argue that USA can and should stop the war immediately have probably no idea of what a full blown world war means in practice.

Forcing Ukraine to cede territories to Russia or accept Russian sovereignity would not end the war. It would only give us a couple of years of respite while Russia is busy with ethnical clensings and various sorts of oppression and Russification and mass murder in Ukraine. Then the war would continue. Either in Finland or in Estonia or Latvia or Lithuania or all four countries at once. Against a much stronger and better equipped Russia.
Those who argue that USA can and should force Ukraine to cede territory or power to Russia would probably give up the next country too and then the next. I wish they would tell us outright how far they are willing to let Russia go? Sweden? Germany? England? Ireland? Iceland? Greenland? Newfoundland? Massachusetts?

[Lew Barrett]

Re: Ukraine

Lyman surrounded. Bakhmut still hanging in.

[Lew Barrett]

Re: Ukraine

Ukraine submits application to NATO. I can’t see how this would get approved by 30 nations while the war rages on. What a Gordian Knot.

From the day he was elected Zelensky has has the odds stacked against him and faced incredible obstacles that would have driven most to tears years ago. Recalling his dealings with Trump when he came to my attention. I was impressed by how well he walked the tightrope between Trump’s pressure program and the longer view that he ultimately took. It must have been unbearably frustrating to have Trump delay and pressure the Zelensky government while dealing with corruption at home, with the Hunter Biden specter making the rounds all the while knowing what was coming and balancing Ukraine’s complications. I can’t imagine the pressure and the frustrations.

[skuthorp]

Re: Ukraine

The phoney war is almost at its end…..

[sandtown]

Re: Ukraine

Those who argue that USA can and should stop the war immediately have probably no idea of what a full blown world war means in practice.

Forcing Ukraine to cede territories to Russia or accept Russian sovereignity would not end the war. It would only give us a couple of years of respite while Russia is busy with ethnical clensings and various sorts of oppression and Russification and mass murder in Ukraine. Then the war would continue. Either in Finland or in Estonia or Latvia or Lithuania or all four countries at once. Against a much stronger and better equipped Russia.
Those who argue that USA can and should force Ukraine to cede territory or power to Russia would probably give up the next country too and then the next. I wish they would tell us outright how far they are willing to let Russia go? Sweden? Germany? England? Ireland? Iceland? Greenland? Newfoundland? Massachusetts?

Three quick points: 1. stop with the straw men, and putting words on our keyboards. NOBODY wrote the US should or can stop the war immediately.

2. Your prognostication sounds just like the Neo-cons in 2002/3. You prolly drank that Kool-aid back then too.

3. You seem unaware that the US/UK in all likelihood blocked a UKR/Russia peace deal back in April. per Jeff Sachs

Y'all people are rewriting history . .

The war would likely have been ended in March 2022, when the governments of Ukraine and Russia exchanged a draft peace agreement based on Ukrainian neutrality. Behind the scenes, the US and UK pushed Zelensky to reject any agreement with Putin and to fight on.

[skuthorp]

Re: Ukraine

G'day heimalga, I wondered how you were faring.
Take notice of our local bot. Any concessions now would just make matters worse of course, and as for brokered peace deals, Vladimir P would never have been interested then because he was going to win, and now it means he is not. Not a tenable position for his own safety at this stage as you, and our bot well know.

[skuthorp]

Re: Ukraine

"in all likelihood"

pffft……...

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Re: Ukraine

I think the application to join NATO is just a statement that Ukraine has given up all hope of peace with Russia, now.

And a statement that Ukraine will defeat Russia.

Its worth noting that the biggest supplier of heavy weapons -tanks, APVs IFVs artillery of all sorts - to Ukraine is … Russia

[Osborne Russell]

Re: Ukraine

how bout the tiki torch right, osborne.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]120391[/ATTACH]

They're proud to be freaks.

Knee-jerk leftists claim to speak for humanity if not for life on earth.

[johnw]

Re: Ukraine

Three quick points: 1. stop with the straw men, and putting words on our keyboards. NOBODY wrote the US should or can stop the war immediately.

2. Your prognostication sounds just like the Neo-cons in 2002/3. You prolly drank that Kool-aid back then too.

3. You seem unaware that the US/UK in all likelihood blocked a UKR/Russia peace deal back in April. per Jeff Sachs

Y'all people are rewriting history . .

The war would likely have been ended in March 2022, when the governments of Ukraine and Russia exchanged a draft peace agreement based on Ukrainian neutrality. Behind the scenes, the US and UK pushed Zelensky to reject any agreement with Putin and to fight on.

No, you are not saying the US should stop the war immediately. You are arguing that it should already have stopped the war.

Interesting that you would mention Sachs, since you have mainly relied on an article in Responsible Statecraft written by Connor Echols, if memory serves.

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/09/02/diplomacy-watch-why-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/

I followed up on his sources. Pravda, a Russian propaganda organ, really did say that the US and the UK sabotaged the peace talks, and he dishonestly implied that Fiona Hill's Foreign Affairs article said the same. I have repeatedly demonstrated that Hill's article does not make this claim, but you continue to cling to it, knowing that Echols' only source was Russian propaganda.

Once again, here's what Hill actually wrote:

Despite calls by some for a negotiated settlement that would involve Ukrainian territorial concessions, Putin seems uninterested in a compromise that would leave Ukraine as a sovereign, independent state—whatever its borders. According to multiple former senior U.S. officials we spoke with, in April 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement: Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries. But as Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated in a July interview with his country’s state media, this compromise is no longer an option. Even giving Russia all of the Donbas is not enough. “Now the geography is different,” Lavrov asserted, in describing Russia’s short-term military aims. “It’s also Kherson and the Zaporizhzhya regions and a number of other territories.” The goal is not negotiation, but Ukrainian capitulation.

Now you've shifted your ground, and are relying on Jeffrey Sachs. Didn't see your link to him, so I googled the text, hoping to learn what his source was.

https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/d2hlnp24c7hyewetypd6rjgfesszm4

He cites no source, just makes a bald assertion. At least this means that his source cannot be traced back to Russian propaganda.

[johnw]

Re: Ukraine

I think that the 'likelihood' that the US/UK blocked a UKR/Russia peace deal back in April needs well considered elaboration.

It seems to be more an article of faith.