More Republican Party Fracturing

[George Jung]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

I was about to refute Garrets assertion, yet again - beginning to see a pattern emerge! - but see it's already been thoroughly, exceedingly nicely, done.

'both sides do it' is a fallacy.

[George Jung]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

Rational AIN'T got a thing to do with it.

If you haven't figured out yet that the oligarchs have engaged in a successful, long-term, propaganda campaign against anyone who might threaten their hopes for domination... I think maybe you've not been paying attention.

Propaganda is about manipulation, not about logic.

Oh, I believe stromberg 'gets it', quite well. Just pointing out the obvious, which so many ignore.

[Garret]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

I was about to refute Garrets assertion, yet again - beginning to see a pattern emerge! - but see it's already been thoroughly, exceedingly nicely, done.

'both sides do it' is a fallacy.

I'm confused. AFAIK, the only assertion I made was that some people think differently than most here & that ignoring them won't make them go away. That's not true?

I (repeating myself) do NOT agree with them. However, I do believe the Dems need to make an attempt to engage them & try to point out how the Dems can better serve them than the folks they are currently voting for. Is this a bad idea?

[David G]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

I'm confused. AFAIK, the only assertion I made was that some people think differently than most here & that ignoring them won't make them go away. That's not true?

I (repeating myself) do NOT agree with them. However, I do believe the Dems need to make an attempt to engage them & try to point out how the Dems can better serve them than the folks they are currently voting for. Is this a bad idea?

I agree with you that citizens who vote R are less monolithic than some folks would suggest. And less deplorable. The true 'deplorables' are the welded-on tRump Kult members. But all who would vote R these days have one thing in common. They've allowed themselves - through ignorance, laziness, hatred, lack of self-awareness, etc. - to be misled into voting against both their own interests and our nation's interests. Lied to plausibly... by masters of the art. Some of them, given sufficient provocation, will come back... or at least reject the 'ultra-MAGA' direction that many R's are pushing. But they've been bamboozled by the bamboozlers. And that is at least 'some' deplorable.

[Garret]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

I agree with you that citizens who vote R are less monolithic than some folks would suggest. And less deplorable. The true 'deplorables' are the welded-on tRump Kult members. But all who would vote R these days have one thing in common. They've allowed themselves - through ignorance, laziness, hatred, lack of self-awareness, etc. - to be misled into voting against both their own interests and our nation's interests. Lied to plausibly... by masters of the art. Some of them, given sufficient provocation, will come back... or at least reject the 'ultra-MAGA' direction that many R's are pushing. But they've been bamboozled by the bamboozlers. And that is at least 'some' deplorable.

I can't disagree, but saying that does not do anything to educate them or at least dissuade them from continuing to vote for Reps.

[David G]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

I can't disagree, but saying that does not do anything to educate them or at least dissuade them from continuing to vote for Reps.

I'm not clear that there's anything that the more rational can actually do to turn them. What are you thinking?

[Garret]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

I'm not clear that there's anything that the more rational can actually do to turn them. What are you thinking?

First step is getting on TV (& not MSNBC, etc.) to explain the lies spread by the right. Pelosi saying they're lies won't do it. Calm, regular folks need to be seen explaining what's being done. It also needs to be done in short, easily digestible episodes.

[L.W. Baxter]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

I agree with you that citizens who vote R are less monolithic than some folks would suggest. And less deplorable. The true 'deplorables' are the welded-on tRump Kult members. But all who would vote R these days have one thing in common. They've allowed themselves - through ignorance, laziness, hatred, lack of self-awareness, etc. - to be misled into voting against both their own interests and our nation's interests. Lied to plausibly... by masters of the art. Some of them, given sufficient provocation, will come back... or at least reject the 'ultra-MAGA' direction that many R's are pushing. But they've been bamboozled by the bamboozlers. And that is at least 'some' deplorable.

you assume that "they" have the same values as you or i. that they align their self-interest, and the nation's best interests, with a more socialized, egalitarian society, with a broadened notion of "all men are created equal", in which the government provides more services, wealth is more equitably distributed, and the playing field is altered for racial and gender equity, and leveled for opportunity based on heritage.

if you lose that assumption, you can let go of the idea that "they" are dumb, or have been hoodwinked. they are voting their perceived interests, same as you or i. their elected representatives reflect their will. they are not more "liberal" than the politicians they elect.

what "they" really need is some good fooling. a few of them need to be massaged into believing that the entitlement of their heritage can survive in a more diverse and egalitarian world. which of course, it can't. alternatively, maybe you can convince their kids to surrender some of their racial, religious, and cultural advantages. and wait for the parents to die.

[David G]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

you assume that "they" have the same values as you or i. that they align their self-interest, and the nation's best interests, with a more socialized, egalitarian society, with a broadened notion of "all men are created equal", in which the government provides more services, wealth is more equitably distributed, and the playing field is altered for racial and gender equity, and leveled for opportunity based on heritage.

if you lose that assumption, you can let go of the idea that "they" are dumb, or have been hoodwinked. they are voting their perceived interests, same as you or i. their elected representatives reflect their will. they are not more "liberal" than the politicians they elect.

what "they" really need is some good fooling. a few of them need to be massaged into believing that the entitlement of their heritage can survive in a more diverse and egalitarian world. which of course, it can't. alternatively, maybe you can convince their kids to surrender some of their racial, religious, and cultural advantages. and wait for the parents to die.

Sure... sorta. A little.

But I'm not 'assuming' anything.

I simply don't care how they themselves 'align their self-interest'... or what they claim their 'values' are. It's all misinformed and maladapted. They ARE, in fact - setting all politics and pom-pom shaking aside - voting against the interests of the nation, themselves, and their children & grandchildren. This can be shown empirically... whatever faith-based beliefs they hold.

[WI-Tom]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

Their tribal identity IS their self-interest to a large degree. I'd argue that their need to preserve it comes from a worldview based in fear and insecurity. Which causes them to be hostile to the more socialized, egalitarian society, as Baxter pointed out.

Fear causes people to do ugly things, and support other people doing even uglier things.

I'm not sure how to reduce their fears of a more egalitarian society when what they fear IS a more egalitarian society. To such an extent that they'd rather have an autocracy, even an ugly fascist one.

Tom

[Keith Wilson]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

I simply don't care how they themselves 'align their self-interest'... or what they claim their 'values' are. It's all misinformed and maladapted. They ARE, in fact - setting all politics and pom-pom shaking aside - voting against the interests of the nation, themselves, and their children & grandchildren. This can be shown empirically... whatever faith-based beliefs they hold.

Tom has it right, I think.

Alas, what you and I think are their interests are obviously not what they think they are. Voting against their economic interest, sure, although they'd disagree. That can indeed be shown empirically. But maintaining the values of their tribe as the values of society, and making sure their town stays mostly homogeneous and inhabited by people who look and talk and think like them?

[L.W. Baxter]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

Sure... sorta. A little.

But I'm not 'assuming' anything.

I simply don't care how they themselves 'align their self-interest'... or what they claim their 'values' are. It's all misinformed and maladapted. They ARE, in fact - setting all politics and pom-pom shaking aside - voting against the interests of the nation, themselves, and their children & grandchildren. This can be shown empirically... whatever faith-based beliefs they hold.

so, your plan is to prove "empirically" that the things other people value, their ideals, are "against their own interests". right.

like, empirical proof that sports are a waste of time. empirical proof that you shouldn't be sad right now. empirical proof that men and women are spiritually the same. empirical proof that there's life after death. empirical proof that all men are created equal.

it's not gonna happen, david. never. you are employing the wrong part of speech.

[Paul Pless]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

republican tribal identity:
dont pay taxes
hate on people that are unlike themselves
own the libs

[Garret]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

Their tribal identity IS their self-interest to a large degree. I'd argue that their need to preserve it comes from a worldview based in fear and insecurity. Which causes them to be hostile to the more socialized, egalitarian society, as Baxter pointed out.

Fear causes people to do ugly things, and support other people doing even uglier things.

I'm not sure how to reduce their fears of a more egalitarian society when what they fear IS a more egalitarian society. To such an extent that they'd rather have an autocracy, even an ugly fascist one.

Tom

I don't think so. Using the guy I mentioned above as an example - he's not part of a "tribe" - or at least he doesn't see it that way. This is a guy who lives in a small town, way up in the hills & runs a small sawmill, sells some firewood, does land clearing for the 2nd home owners in nearby towns, etc. Hard working, probably only HS educated guy who comes from a family that's probably voted Rep for 5 generations or more. He loved my "Liberalitarian" moniker - "Happy to help anyone out, but leave me alone to live my life" & is pro-choice - because "What someone else does is none of my business - though I'd prefer my wife didn't get one".

He said he doesn't watch much news & doesn't have cable - so he doesn't see Fox News. Additionally, he would not vote for Trump if he ran again "because he turned out to be a liar". When I said "like the tax cut that pretty much only helped the rich?" He said "It did? I don't pay a lot of taxes so I never noticed."

He is precisely the kind of person that could be reached by the messaging I mentioned above - but the Dems don't seem to want to do the sort of short, simple, & direct addressing of issues that will be required to get these folks on board.

[John Smith]

Re: More Republican Party Fracturing

Rational AIN'T got a thing to do with it.

If you haven't figured out yet that the oligarchs have engaged in a successful, long-term, propaganda campaign ... and a successful l-t effort to game the system... against anyone who might threaten their hopes for domination... I think maybe you've not been paying attention.

Propaganda is about manipulation, not about logic. Gaming the system is about power, not strengthening our Republic.

Propaganda is another word for lies.

Imagine where we might be today if politicians all actually told the truth, and if all "news' outlets actually got their facts correct. Imagine if all voters had the same set of actual facts?