Trump is Toast

[TomF]

Re: Trump is Toast

It's a power move, setting the documents case in Florida. To me, it means that the evidence is so overwhelming that it doesn't much matter who's in the jury pool.

[Keith Wilson]

Re: Trump is Toast

Scuttlebutt is that the mara-lago documents case could be tried in southern Florida. You might as well not indict him at all! The jury will be made up of conservative old coots and they will let him off the hook.

Maybe not. Florida is upside down. The panhandle is deep south, like rural Georgia or Alabama. The south, not so much; it's more urban and very Latino, although descendants of Cubans tend to be more conservative.

[Keith Wilson]

Re: Trump is Toast

Scuttlebutt is that the mara-lago documents case could be tried in southern Florida. You might as well not indict him at all! The jury will be made up of conservative old coots and they will let him off the hook.

Maybe not. Florida is upside down. The panhandle is deep south, like rural Georgia or Alabama. The south, not so much; it's more urban and very Latino, although descendants of Cubans tend to be more conservative.

[Rich Jones]

Re: Trump is Toast

It's a power move, setting the documents case in Florida. To me, it means that the evidence is so overwhelming that it doesn't much matter who's in the jury pool.

To rational jurors, yes. But this is the Cult of Trump we are talking about.
Trump could shoot a little child in the head, witnessed by a crowd, and the True Believers would say it was
self-defense, let him go and give him a metal.

[TomF]

Re: Trump is Toast

I dunno. The law is pretty cut and dried, as I've understood it.

Were the documents property of the United States, or were they personal documents? Were they removed inadvertently, or intentionally? Were the lawyers communicating with NARA acting in good faith? Were they themselves misled, in particular in where they were permitted to search, and in the information they were given to say the searches were comprehensive?

Is there evidence that after a subpoena was issued, before the FBI showed up, there were efforts to conceal, move, or destroy documents? Is there evidence that any of the documents were shown to others - and that doing so entailed risks for national security? whether or not the documents were marked classified? If so, did such instances occur after the subpoena, after the certification that all documents had been returned?

Is there any sign of evidence tampering, such as deletions in the videos provided by the Trump folks, compared with videos obtained from the security company which installed/maintained the surveillance equipment? Are there phone or other recordings (or contemporaneous memos etc.) of Trump and/or his staff which bear on any of these matters, or is it a matter of conflicting witness statements? What is the character of the witnesses, and do some face more significant consequences for lying (e.g. the 20+ Secret Service agents interviewed by the Grand Jury)?

All this, before there's any mention of whether the documents themselves were classified, or were merely property of the United States. All this before there's any question that, for instance, documents may have been provided or shown to adversaries of the United States, whether for payment or other reasons.

Even in Florida, there would be convictions.

[Jim Mahan]

Re: Trump is Toast

Follow everyone one of the question marks in Tom's post above with 'yes.' Count those up and that's the number of felony counts of obstruction and espionage he's going to be indicted on, and ultimately incarcerated for—and that's just the front of the conga line. Booyah.

Cue Martha and the Vandellas.

[Wine47]

Re: Trump is Toast

Saw an interview on MSNBC last night with Laurence O'Donnell talking to former Trump attorney Tim Parlatore about the classified documents at Mar-A-Lago - Tim stated the documents found were copies and not the originals ! This is going to be part of Trumps defense - seems Bonkers to me - I would say copying classified documents would be even more serious than keeping them. Make 10 copies, return the originals, all good to go and sell the copies to the highest bidder. You can find the interview on Youtube.

[Chip-skiff]

Re: Trump is Toast

Trump lawyers notified that he is the target of classified documents probe

Dan Whitcomb, Sarah N. Lynch and Jacqueline Thomsen
June 7, 2023

June 7 (Reuters) - Federal prosecutors have notified former U.S. President Donald Trump's attorneys he is the target of an investigation into his handling of classified materials, a person familiar with the matter said on Wednesday, adding to his legal troubles as he campaigns for the White House in 2024.

The Justice Department typically notifies people when they become targets of an investigation to give them an opportunity to present their own evidence before a grand jury. The notification does not necessarily mean Trump will be charged. News of the notification to Trump's legal team surfaced just two days after his attorneys met with Justice Department officials to discuss the case. The Trump campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Trump's attorneys in the documents case could not be reached for comment.

Trump's legal team was notified on Monday, the person said. Although there are some signs that the documents investigation is coming to a close, the timing of when a person is told they are a target cannot necessarily be used as a predictor of when charges might be brought, said David Schoen, an attorney who represented Trump ally Steve Bannon during his criminal trial on contempt of Congress charges. "Sometimes they are issued at the beginning of a long investigation and sometimes at the conclusion of an investigation," he said.

Trump, the front-runner in the race for the 2024 Republican presidential nomination, has repeatedly described the multiple investigations as politically motivated.

A federal grand jury has been investigating Trump's retention of classified materials after leaving the White House in 2021. A second criminal investigation is looking into alleged efforts by Trump and his allies to overturn his 2020 election loss to Democrat Joe Biden. A spokesperson for Special Counsel Jack Smith, who is leading the probes, declined to comment.

Investigators in August 2022 seized roughly 13,000 documents from Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Palm Beach, Florida. One hundred of these were marked as classified, even though one of Trump's lawyers had previously said that all records with classified markings had been returned. Trump has defended his retention of documents, suggesting that he declassified them while he was president. However, Trump has not provided evidence of this and his attorneys have not made that argument in court filings.

Trump is the first current or former U.S. president to face criminal charges, having pleaded not guilty in April to felony charges for allegedly falsifying business records relating to hush money paid to a porn star before the 2016 presidential race.

Trump handed over 15 boxes of records in January 2022, a year after leaving office, but federal officials came to believe he had not returned all the documents. The Justice Department issued Trump a grand jury subpoena in May 2022 asking him to return any other records bearing classified markings, and top officials traveled to Mar-a-Lago to retrieve the materials. Trump's attorneys turned over 38 pages marked as classified to FBI and Justice Department officials and showed them a storage room at Mar-a-Lago, but did not permit the agents to open any of the boxes. One of Trump's lawyers also signed a document attesting that all records with classified markings had been returned to the government - a claim later proven false after the FBI searched his home.

Trump's legal woes are growing. A jury in federal court in Manhattan in May decided in a civil lawsuit that Trump must pay $5 million in damages for sexually abusing former Elle magazine columnist E. Jean Carroll and then defaming her by branding her a liar. Trump also faces a criminal investigation by a county prosecutor in Georgia relating to his efforts to undo his 2020 election loss in that state.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/federa...co-2023-06-07/

[hawkeye54]

Re: Trump is Toast

Saw an interview on MSNBC last night with Laurence O'Donnell talking to former Trump attorney Tim Parlatore about the classified documents at Mar-A-Lago - Tim stated the documents found were copies and not the originals ! This is going to be part of Trumps defense - seems Bonkers to me - I would say copying classified documents would be even more serious than keeping them. Make 10 copies, return the originals, all good to go and sell the copies to the highest bidder. You can find the interview on Youtube.

I caught part of that interview when I got home from work - once upon a time, as part of my military service, I held a security clearance - what Parlatore was saying seemed a lot like processed hay being pushed out of a bovine, in my opinion. I have to agree with your point about copying documents.


Rick

[Tom Montgomery]

Re: Trump is Toast

.
Donald J. Trump has been indicted on 7 federal criminal counts that are presently under seal. He must appear in federal court in Miami on Tuesday, June 13 at 3:00 pm.

Justice will prevail.
.

[JayInOz]

Re: Trump is Toast

Appearing at 3.00pm. Guessing that means that something formal and very brief will happen on day one?

[Rich Jones]

Re: Trump is Toast

Indicted in the wrong state.
Chances of conviction just went way down.
Can they find a jury that won't have at least one Cult-of-Trump acolyte?
It is a good day, but I'll be amazed if he spends a day in jail.
Of course, I've always been a pessimist.

[Tom Montgomery]

Re: Trump is Toast

.
At 3:00 pm in federal court in Miami on June 13, Trump will be formally informed of the charges against him, he will be informed of his right to retain legal counsel, and the judge will decide what amount, if any, to set bail.

[Tom Montgomery]

Re: Trump is Toast

Indicted in the wrong state.

If the crimes were committed in Florida the DOJ had no choice but to indict him there. On the federal level Florida has what is referred to as "a rocket docket." Federal cases move more quickly through Florida federal courts than in other states.

[Rich Jones]

Re: Trump is Toast

If the crimes were committed in Florida the DOJ had no choice but to indict him there.

I know, but it's frustrating for him to be tried in friendly territory.