Seasonal religion discussion

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

You seem to remember a lot of things that I do not, but then I'm only 67 and the product of 12 years of Catholic schools. I guess the nuns and brothers that taught me failed to get the memo about lefties.

Also, I have gay cousins that I love dearly, so while there may be SOME people who claim to be believers while they spread their hate, please stop painting all of us with that same broad brush.



How can I forget it? As I have told you now many times, you cannot restrict why people vote the way they do. If you can formulate a good explanation for why they should vote differently, then you may have success. Your responses have indicated that you failed to understand what I said, or you failed to appreciate it, or it just did not penetrate.

John, you use a very broad brush to paint a lot of people and you offend them. We are not all bigots who hide under the veil of religion. We are not all trying to teach you to accept religion. Frankly, I would be happy if just once you acknowledged that you understood what I said.

Voting is a private matter. People vote as they wish. I'm simply saying laws ought not be based on religious beliefs of some, even the majority.

I also didn't say all lefties were forced to use their right hand. The lefties I knew, or knew of, who were forced to use their right hand had very religious parents and/or went to a religious (I believe Catholic) school.

I think it's fair to say those today who propose laws against gays are almost, if not, all driven by religious beliefs. Would you disagree with that?

I've also suggested that laws/regulations OUGHT to have a basis in protecting the people in some way. Would you disagree with that?

[CWSmith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

^ John, I agree with your last sentence, but the rest is just not true.

People have told you that their experience does not match yours. You deflect, ignore, and return to the same diatribe.

I'm sorry, but I need to disconnect from you for a time. Talking with you is a wasted effort.

[TomF]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I honestly don't know why there are so many laws suddenly emerging against LGBTQ folks. While the narrative seems certainly in the US to be described as religious, the very same religious folks didn't get as fired up into making laws till it became a MAGA theme. Which isn't to say these people weren't homophobic etc before, just that I think there's something else going on right now.

What I think is going on is that the Dems have become identified with support for LGBTQ rights, and it has to do with America's political polarity. I mean, it's as religious as Bud Light, or Disney, or frankly as Trump superhero electronic trading cards. None of which have had anything to do with religion until maybe at most last year.

[TomF]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

As to left handedness, I'd a grandfather who was forced to learn to write with his right hand. He went to a public school, no nuns implicated.

[Keith Wilson]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I honestly don't know why there are so many laws suddenly emerging against LGBTQ folks. While the narrative seems certainly in the US to be described as religious, the very same religious folks didn't get as fired up into making laws till it became a MAGA theme. Which isn't to say these people weren't homophobic etc before, just that I think there's something else going on right now.

What I think is going on is that the Dems have become identified with support for LGBTQ rights, and it has to do with America's political polarity. I mean, it's as religious as Bud Light, or Disney, or frankly as Trump superhero electronic trading cards. None of which have had anything to do with religion until maybe at most last year.

Well . . . Evangelical Christians are the core of the US right wing, the core of Trump's support. The antipathy toward LGBTQ folks is reactionary in a literal sense, a reaction against and an attempt to reverse decades of progress toward greater acceptance. Separating the religion and the conservatism in religious conservatives is difficult if not impossible; they want to go back to the old ways, but they also think God endorsed the old ways. I couldn't say it's always been like this, but for several decades, and certainly right now in the US, far-right politics and fundamentalist religion are inextricably connected.

[WI-Tom]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Tom, post after post of "Religious people do this... and all in the name of religion" without ever acknowledging anything more moderate that has been said to him or you does not require the word "All".

I disagree.

If I say "People do _________" that is not the same as saying "ALL people do ____________." Not at all.

In fact, people DO do some pretty horrible things, destructive things, hateful things, in the name of religion. Saying so is not an attack on ALL people who are religious, no matter how frustrating or unfair it seems to you to hear it.

So again, unless you can share a post where someone explicitly wrote "ALL religious people do/are ________" then you are not seeing a broad-brush anti-religion attack. John has a far more negative view of religion, maybe, than you do. Me too, most likely. When I want to be critical of the bad things religion does, I don't have to first list every single good thing religion does to be fair. I am being fair by NOT saying "ALL religions ___________."

Tom

[WI-Tom]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I honestly don't know why there are so many laws suddenly emerging against LGBTQ folks. While the narrative seems certainly in the US to be described as religious, the very same religious folks didn't get as fired up into making laws till it became a MAGA theme. Which isn't to say these people weren't homophobic etc before, just that I think there's something else going on right now.

What I think is going on is that the Dems have become identified with support for LGBTQ rights, and it has to do with America's political polarity. I mean, it's as religious as Bud Light, or Disney, or frankly as Trump superhero electronic trading cards. None of which have had anything to do with religion until maybe at most last year.

I don't quite see it that way. Believe me, in right-wing evangelical "Christianity," the homophobia and hatred/fear of gays has always been there. In the 1980s, AIDS was God's punishment for being gay. Many of my gay friends who grew up in that tradition were horribly, horribly conflicted, and it took them years to get past the church-induced sef-loathing.

What Trumpism did was simply make it socially acceptable to express racist, homophobic, misogynist beliefs that were already deep engrained in right-wing evangelical "Christianity"--ugly selfish fearful thoughts could suddenly be expressed, because the reaction would no longer be social disapproval, but raucous celebration.

John, I think, is absolutely right. Religious beliefs are the main source of the anti-LGBTQ+ backlash. Another source is fear of change--it had been OK for so long to disparage and attack "faggots" (that was a common insult in my adolescence) that when it was no longer OK, reactionary resentment kicked in. And with Trump, that resentment and "anti-woke" frustration--stick it to the Libs--encouraged a backlash, too. Which means, I think your point about anti-gay attitudes being part of the anti-Democrat tribal identity is also part of it. But religion is the far bigger part.

Tom

[skuthorp]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

As to left handedness, I'd a grandfather who was forced to learn to write with his right hand. He went to a public school, no nuns implicated.

Same here, and consequently wrote badly with both. But cack (left) handedness was considered a mark of the devil in medieval times. And in middle eastern terms the left hand is not for eating. Another left over hygiene measure from the Bronze Age preserved in Bronze Age religions?

[Tom from Rubicon]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Ma was German Catholic and Dad was Norwegian Lutheran. Dad paid beyond taxes that I and my sister attend parochial school. In my opinion the worst money he ever spent.
He stood by Ma and attended Holy Day services. Ma told him there was a Lutheran church in town (Batavia, Ill) but he wanted no part of it.
Their services were spoken in Swedish.

Tom

[Tom from Rubicon]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

As to faggots, Uncle Arnie, would say, (Stop saying that Tommy!) when I declared my intention to put another block of wood in the stove.

Tom

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

As to faggots, Uncle Arnie, would say, (Stop saying that Tommy!) when I declared my intention to put another block of wood in the stove.

Tom

Lost in translation.
A faggot is a bundle of sticks used for fuel, or a pork meatball wrapped in caul and braised, usually with onions.

[Keith Wilson]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Caul? i.e. the amniotic sac that comes out when a mammal is born? Folks eat that?

[CWSmith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

...right now in the US, far-right politics and fundamentalist religion are inextricably connected.

True, but the point that many of us are trying to make, but goes unheard by some, is that they are just one example of religion (and not one that many of us agree with).

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I honestly don't know why there are so many laws suddenly emerging against LGBTQ folks. While the narrative seems certainly in the US to be described as religious, the very same religious folks didn't get as fired up into making laws till it became a MAGA theme. Which isn't to say these people weren't homophobic etc before, just that I think there's something else going on right now.

What I think is going on is that the Dems have become identified with support for LGBTQ rights, and it has to do with America's political polarity. I mean, it's as religious as Bud Light, or Disney, or frankly as Trump superhero electronic trading cards. None of which have had anything to do with religion until maybe at most last year.

I'd say the "Christian right" has taken over the GOP.

I don't believe I've attacked anyone's beliefs. People get defensive over beliefs. My 'theme' has been one of letting everyone hold whatever religious beliefs, or non beliefs, they hold, as long as we don't step on each others toes/rights.

I'm sure some lefties were forced to use their right hands without religion being a part of it. I only knew of two close to my family, and those two were forced based on the religious beliefs of their parents.

I've suggested that laws ought not be based on religious beliefs, and the responses include that people vote as they wish, and that is true. That doesn't always make it right.

Our courts are supposed to make decisions based upon our constitution, no? Are they?

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I disagree.

If I say "People do _________" that is not the same as saying "ALL people do ____________." Not at all.

In fact, people DO do some pretty horrible things, destructive things, hateful things, in the name of religion. Saying so is not an attack on ALL people who are religious, no matter how frustrating or unfair it seems to you to hear it.

So again, unless you can share a post where someone explicitly wrote "ALL religious people do/are ________" then you are not seeing a broad-brush anti-religion attack. John has a far more negative view of religion, maybe, than you do. Me too, most likely. When I want to be critical of the bad things religion does, I don't have to first list every single good thing religion does to be fair. I am being fair by NOT saying "ALL religions ___________."

Tom

My negative view comes from religion often being forced upon us. As I stated before, I don't mind if someone says "Grace" before we eat, but I'd like to be asked if I mind, rather than the person blessing the meal assuming everyone believes as he does.

I may be wrong, but it certainly seems to me that the anti-abortion laws and the anti gay laws are based not on our constitution, but on religion.

I believe laws/regulations ought to be passed to, in some way, protect people from something. These laws don't do that, do they?