Seasonal religion discussion

[TomF]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Don't ask me. What I don't know about deities would fill libraries.

Me too. I've visited a few of 'em.

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I get the sense that you combine two different matters.

In one set, people vote their conscience such as their position on abortion. You don't agree with them, so you complain that they are trying to force their religion on you. And yet, you vote your conscience regardless of where it originates (you vote for laws that prevent sexist or racist hiring practices, for instance). That's okay with you because they are your beliefs. If you want to make progress, you need to understand that the playing field is level.

In the other set, some people really do try to force their religious views on others. Posting the Ten Commandments in schools and town halls is a good example. Bringing prayer back into public schools is another. I object to that as well. So did Martin Luther King, Jr.

These are not the same thing. In a free society, we are allowed to make decisions about what powers we have as individuals and what powers the state is allowed. One of those decisions has been, and should be, freedom of religion. That doesn't mean I can't vote my conscience on matters of importance to society. It does mean that you have a right to not be inundated with theological beliefs you do not share.

"Apples and oranges" All men are created equal is, supposedly, how this country is supposed to function. Basing laws on race is not the same thing as basing them on religious beliefs.

Of course you can vote your conscience, but voting based on race, which is not a choice, is not the same as voting based on religious beliefs, which is a choice.

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Thank you. This helps clarify things.

Biblical scholar Tim Mackie argues that the massive change in framing between ancient Judaism and the religions of the surrounding peoples in the region was Judaism's rejection of a transactional relationship between people and God. On the order of "We'll do this for you, so you'll do that for us." This is the key, distinctive line running through virtually all of Hebrew scripture, the pivot upon which every iconic biblical story turns when read in an accurate understanding of the time. The underpinning is always that God's setting up the context in which to be in relationship with Israel, not Israel setting up the processes to get what they want.

It's a very long and involved conversation to demonstrate this, filled with "well what about that story" instances, but frankly it's historically accurate. We can have that thread elsewhere; in part we have had that thread elsewhere.

Whenever biblical narratives show the People of Israel "fell away" from their covenant with God, that's how they fell. They started into trying to be transactional with God, telling God what to do. That's the story of the Tower of Babel. That's the story of the making a Golden Calf. That's the story of all the muck that the prophets like Elijah or Micah or Amos were responding to as well. Because the religious context among Israel's neighbors was "we'll do this thing, to make our God do that thing - or to prevent that God from doing X." The key point in Israel's story with God is that God not only doesn't work in that transactional way, but that God is seeking (and unilaterally committing to having) a very different kind of relationship.

What we see in transactional models of Christianity - where God'll smite folks for doing X or not doing Y, or where God'll answer requests for a Mercedes-Benz, or a pneumonia cure, or for prosperity - is the dogged re-emergence of exactly the kind of religion which the Hebrew prophets rejected. Which Jesus, in his time, also rejected. But it's become a dominant version of Christianity (especially in American evangelicalism) in our time, just as transactional and syncretic Judaism was the dominant version of Judaism in the time of the prophets Amos, Hosea, Micah etc.

You're not wrong, John, in observing that a transactional version of Christianity doesn't work. That we simply don't see God acting the way one would expect, if God were transactional. God doesn't keep Christians from getting shot in their churches, doesn't even keep clergy from abusing kids they're supposed to nurture and protect. If you think - like most of the folks in ancient Palestine did - that religion is about controlling the deity and calling in favors through doing sacrifices, prayers etc., then you're spot on in recognizing that the model's screwed. It doesn't work. Performance on those metrics is crap.

What the 8thC prophets (and Jesus) say is that what's crap is that model, which puts humans in charge of setting up metrics for God's performance evaluation. That wasn't God's objective, when creation occurred. We aren't in charge of what God does, or how God does it, or whether God's doing well at being God. Relationship is different from control, and for whatever reason, God's indicated (in scripture, and elsewhere) that it's relationship which is the core objective. The thread running through all of the stories, Hebrew scripture and New Testament, is that God's the source of all that is, is life and love itself. And that we're being offered guidance on how to try to align ourselves so we can have our own lives characterized by more of that life and love.

If one doggedly persists in thinking that the Canaanites (old and new) were correct in their view of what religion was for, one's gonna continue stuck in theodicy problems.

Long post leaves with with one question: What, exactly, does God actually do?

I've known many who thank God when something good happens, but can't recall anyone blaming God when something bad happens. That said, I've heard many ask, "How could God let this happen?" or such.

You also support, if I read it correctly, that different people see God differently, which could be construed as a failure of God to communicate accurately. Does it not also reaffirm that everyone seems to get to define his own God?

[Kevin T]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

why would a deity which created everything not care about everything?

Because he/ she/ or it is one sick MoFo. Parasitic worms whose sole purpose is to bore into the eyes of children to render them blind is definitely not a cat I'd want to hang around with for all eternity.

I'll find my own enlightenment from within, lead the best life I can manage, be considerate of my fellow man, be present in the moment, and manifest the words of John Winston Lennon when he wrote:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky
Imagine all the people
Livin' for today

Or as Ram Sass famously intoned; "Be here now" because when they turn the lights out we'll be dead for billions and billions of years and ain't nobody as of yet that has come back from the other side with irrefutable proof of what's beyond the other side of this life.

[TomF]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Long post leaves with with one question: What, exactly, does God actually do?

I've known many who thank God when something good happens, but can't recall anyone blaming God when something bad happens. That said, I've heard many ask, "How could God let this happen?" or such.

I've heard lots of "How could God have..." and "God damn ..." and "Thank God ..." and etc. too.

I like your first question, "what exactly, does God actually do?" Wow. Short answer is all I can tell you is the bit that affects me. What do I know about the other end of this universe, or several universes away, or even the other end of the block? What kind of maintenance or sustaining work is needed to keep multiverses spinning...

In my life, targeted activity I do to improve my relationship with God results in thinking about myself a whole lot less, and feeling a whole lot more gratitude. Relief from a lot of anxiety, and both facing and forgiving myself and others over things which I've done or have happened to me and others which are nasty. I'm more kind, more compassionate, and have practices to bring me to reflect on whether I'm being kind or compassionate. To do a re-set.

The kinds of benefits people describe from mindfulness meditation also come from a regular meditative prayer practice, along with a few others. And as I age, I'm less and less concerned about my own aging, and my inevitable death. Less torn up by grief thinking about the deaths of others too - those already gone, and those whose end is coming.

[Kevin T]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I've heard lots of "How could God have..." and "God damn ..." and "Thank God ..." and etc. too.

I like your first question, "what exactly, does God actually do?" Wow. Short answer is all I can tell you is the bit that affects me. What do I know about the other end of this universe, or several universes away, or even the other end of the block? What kind of maintenance or sustaining work is needed to keep multiverses spinning...

In my life, targeted activity I do to improve my relationship with God results in thinking about myself a whole lot less, and feeling a whole lot more gratitude. Relief from a lot of anxiety, and both facing and forgiving myself and others over things which I've done or have happened to me and others which are nasty. I'm more kind, more compassionate, and have practices to bring me to reflect on whether I'm being kind or compassionate. To do a re-set.

The kinds of benefits people describe from mindfulness meditation also come from a regular meditative prayer practice, along with a few others. And as I age, I'm less and less concerned about my own aging, and my inevitable death. Less torn up by grief thinking about the deaths of others too - those already gone, and those whose end is coming.

I have all the same attitudes and feelings as the bolded parts above without any of that god stuff. Maybe just striving to be a self-actualized human being is enough unto itself at least for me. I guess I don't need any other outside forces, real or imagined, to keep me present in my own life. KT Shalom out!

[CWSmith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

"Apples and oranges" All men are created equal is, supposedly, how this country is supposed to function. Basing laws on race is not the same thing as basing them on religious beliefs.

Of course you can vote your conscience, but voting based on race, which is not a choice, is not the same as voting based on religious beliefs, which is a choice.

John, you say that voting based on race is not the same as voting based on religious beliefs. Do you realize that the emancipation of the slaves was a movement begun and carried forth by the northern churches in this country? That was people voting their religious beliefs. Do you object to that?

[TomF]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I have all the same attitudes and feelings as the bolded parts above without any of that god stuff. Maybe just striving to be a self-actualized human being is enough unto itself at least for me. I guess I don't need any other outside forces, real or imagined, to keep me present in my own life. KT Shalom out!

I agree. I've met folks with those characteristics who've no "god" stuff as part of their way of living. Awesome.

I'm a trained classical singer. Are there multiple ways of learning how to sing? Even multiple schools of learning to sing classical music? Sure thing. Some common things you're trying to find ways of doing, but many different approaches to help a student get there.

I've met some folks who sing well without any, or much, training or practice. Not many, but some. Not at the same level as someone who's spent years with a teacher and years in a practice room, but well. And folks can pick stuff up from a bunch of places, on their own.

Most don't. Most people in our culture are actually afraid of singing in public, especially singing solo.

There are a wide range of pathways for developing compassion, kindness, thinking about oneself less. Secular pathways. A lot of these nowadays draw heavily on mindfulness practices (most frequently derived from Buddhism, but the same practices have long histories in a variety of religious traditions), but some derive from First Nations' spirituality, and lots of other places.

What seems to be true is that we'll develop any quality if we value it enough to try to get more of it, instead of getting something else. That's often driven by what others in our network or community value - if you're surrounded by a "Looking Out for #1" crowd, it's not going to impel you towards priorizing compassion and empathy to the degree you'd find if you hung out with addictions counselors. We're shaped by our structuring choices.

People who move in circles where the qualities you'd bolded from my post are highly valued, are probably more likely to develop them more. There's no exclusive hold on that among religious folks, but you'll find such things more valued in a monastery than a stock exchange.

[WI-Tom]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

John, you say that voting based on race is not the same as voting based on religious beliefs. Do you realize that the emancipation of the slaves was a movement begun and carried forth by the northern churches in this country? That was people voting their religious beliefs. Do you object to that?

This question comes up again and again, and those defending religion really seem to have no idea what it is that bothers people like me (and John), or what he is talking about.

Just because a law is consistent with your religious values does not mean it's a problem. Plenty of atheists or Muslims or Mormons or Jews or whatever have values that are ALSO consistent with that law, most likely.

But if the law in question reinforces YOUR religious values, and NOT anyone else's values, that's a problem. That's when religious beliefs start being force on people who don't share those beliefs.

If your law has a legitimate secular purpose, does not promote a specific religion, and does not excessively involve government in the regulation of religion, whether you voted for that law because of your religious beliefs or because of your atheistic beliefs is completely irrelevant. This is pretty simple in theory--complicated to apply, at times, hard to draw those lines in specific cases, maybe.

But the principle is simple. And so many people keep asking the same questions about laws that are consistent with religious beliefs, as if asking those questions proves anything about legislation being used to force religious beliefs on others.

Hint, hint: it doesn't.

Tom

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Looking in from the other side of the Pond, this seems to be a uniquely US problem.
Although the UK has a State Religion, religion does not play much or any part in our politics.
Ireland used to be a Priest ridden society, but has now made the laws on abortion more humane.
France is so devoutly secular that their reputation veers towards no public demonstration of religion.

[CWSmith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

This question comes up again and again, and those defending religion really seem to have no idea what it is that bothers people like me (and John), or what he is talking about.

Just because a law is consistent with your religious values does not mean it's a problem. Plenty of atheists or Muslims or Mormons or Jews or whatever have values that are ALSO consistent with that law, most likely.

But if the law in question reinforces YOUR religious values, and NOT anyone else's values, that's a problem. That's when religious beliefs start being force on people who don't share those beliefs.

If your law has a legitimate secular purpose, does not promote a specific religion, and does not excessively involve government in the regulation of religion, whether you voted for that law because of your religious beliefs or because of your atheistic beliefs is completely irrelevant. This is pretty simple in theory--complicated to apply, at times, hard to draw those lines in specific cases, maybe.

But the principle is simple. And so many people keep asking the same questions about laws that are consistent with religious beliefs, as if asking those questions proves anything about legislation being used to force religious beliefs on others.

Hint, hint: it doesn't.

Tom

Tom, like John, you miss the point entirely.

I'm not supporting the idea of forcing any religion on anybody. That has no value and is terribly destructive.

I am trying to get John to recognize that his over-the-top rhetoric is not thought out (this is an impossible task at this point).

People vote their conscience. That is a fact and you will never change it. Their conscience is often informed by their religious beliefs and you will never change that, either.

If you want to raise a meaningful objection to something like displaying The Ten Commandments in school or government buildings, you can. I think just about everyone here including me will agree that it's wrong, so you won't get much excitement out of anyone. Likewise, prayer in school.

Pick a topic. Nail it down. Focus the discussion on one specific thing and let's discuss it. If you and John keep saying that no one has the right to have public opinions based on their religion, the rest of us will just ignore you because it's wrong and it's foolish.

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I've heard lots of "How could God have..." and "God damn ..." and "Thank God ..." and etc. too.

I like your first question, "what exactly, does God actually do?" Wow. Short answer is all I can tell you is the bit that affects me. What do I know about the other end of this universe, or several universes away, or even the other end of the block? What kind of maintenance or sustaining work is needed to keep multiverses spinning...

In my life, targeted activity I do to improve my relationship with God results in thinking about myself a whole lot less, and feeling a whole lot more gratitude. Relief from a lot of anxiety, and both facing and forgiving myself and others over things which I've done or have happened to me and others which are nasty. I'm more kind, more compassionate, and have practices to bring me to reflect on whether I'm being kind or compassionate. To do a re-set.

The kinds of benefits people describe from mindfulness meditation also come from a regular meditative prayer practice, along with a few others. And as I age, I'm less and less concerned about my own aging, and my inevitable death. Less torn up by grief thinking about the deaths of others too - those already gone, and those whose end is coming.

I've always been ready to lend a hand whenever I could. It was I, when in high school, walking in NYC with three friends, who suggested we help a fellow get a large box up onto his truck. One needs not hold religious beliefs to believe in helping others.

I believe I've simply taken the position that we need to be tolerant of what others believe and try not to step on each others toes, so to speak.

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

John, you say that voting based on race is not the same as voting based on religious beliefs. Do you realize that the emancipation of the slaves was a movement begun and carried forth by the northern churches in this country? That was people voting their religious beliefs. Do you object to that?

No. I've also never said that religious people have never done any good. Will you say they've never done any harm.

Is there not a difference between skin color and religious beliefs? One is a choice and one is not. How one thinks of people of a different color is also a choice; at least once one is old enough to think.

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I agree. I've met folks with those characteristics who've no "god" stuff as part of their way of living. Awesome.

I'm a trained classical singer. Are there multiple ways of learning how to sing? Even multiple schools of learning to sing classical music? Sure thing. Some common things you're trying to find ways of doing, but many different approaches to help a student get there.

I've met some folks who sing well without any, or much, training or practice. Not many, but some. Not at the same level as someone who's spent years with a teacher and years in a practice room, but well. And folks can pick stuff up from a bunch of places, on their own.

Most don't. Most people in our culture are actually afraid of singing in public, especially singing solo.

There are a wide range of pathways for developing compassion, kindness, thinking about oneself less. Secular pathways. A lot of these nowadays draw heavily on mindfulness practices (most frequently derived from Buddhism, but the same practices have long histories in a variety of religious traditions), but some derive from First Nations' spirituality, and lots of other places.

What seems to be true is that we'll develop any quality if we value it enough to try to get more of it, instead of getting something else. That's often driven by what others in our network or community value - if you're surrounded by a "Looking Out for #1" crowd, it's not going to impel you towards priorizing compassion and empathy to the degree you'd find if you hung out with addictions counselors. We're shaped by our structuring choices.

People who move in circles where the qualities you'd bolded from my post are highly valued, are probably more likely to develop them more. There's no exclusive hold on that among religious folks, but you'll find such things more valued in a monastery than a stock exchange.

That's all true. Almost. While one would likely find such things more valued in a monastery, it's not guaranteed.

I'm not sure what the actual statistics are, but is there any evidence that holding religious beliefs makes one more honest or less interested in making money? We do have church leaders who fly private planes, no?

Holding religious views does not make one honest, and not holding such views does not make one dishonest.

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Before I go to bed, I'd ask everyone to look at the negative impact on the health of women the anti-abortion laws are having. These laws are not being written by doctors. They are not being written by politicians reflecting the majority view of the voters. They are being written based on the religious views of those writing them, and the high court.

Why did women vote for these people? I don't know. My guess is they believe Roe was settled and they believed Kavanaugh et al when they said they believed Roe was settled. They took what those people said on faith. It was a mistake.

And this is being done by the party who boasts that it stand for less government and more individual rights.