Seasonal religion discussion

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

That takes us right back to the question, "Why did a loving god create parasitic worms and lava that eat children from the inside out?"

Seems he doesn't love everyone.

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I'll take a run at this, but it won't be very satisfying.

I think the purpose of life here on Earth is to learn that we have a stake in the well-being of others and we don't go thru this alone. Having obstacles to overcome and suffering to end is where the rubber meets the road. Does that seem fair? Not really, but it does compel us to become better beings.

What if life were just one long vacation? Would we learn anything, or remain superficial fun-loving beings with no depth?

So I guess the real question is "Why are we not created more God-like?" I think the last beings to ask that question were Adam & Eve and before that it was Satan. It didn't end well for them.

Or, maybe the question is, "Why are we just so stupid that we can't see the reason for it all?" I don't know. We are what we are, but this life does give us a chance to become something better.

Here's a question: Why is it we treat our pets humanely, but we don't treat terminally ill humans as humanely.

As to a previous question; actions likely demonstrate love a wife has for her husband, or visas versa. Somehow, I cannot imagine a God who teaches his believers to love each other, tells them to hate gays.

[John Smith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

And the short answer is, I dunno. Though I can speculate.

"Good" macroeconomic policy is going to hurt some folks, some industries. It's specious to say "well, not in the long run" when someone's a 63 year old worker whose job gets eliminated - even if it is "good" macroeconomic policy in the long term, for the whole economy.

My nearly 3 year old granddaughter has strong opinions on whether it's good policy to remove a big splinter that had broken off under the skin of her knee. Her physician father also has strong opinions, which she can't understand.

It is entirely likely that using concepts that I'd recognize like "love" are far too limiting when one's actually considering the scope of how influences in the creation and sustenance of multiple universes are concerned. Is it "loving" that a star goes supernova and obliterates everything in its galactic neighbourhood? Not for anything which happened to evolve to live there. Maybe it's important to the way the universe is constructed, though, that things go "bang" periodically.

Again, I'm with Pascal. Feel free to "leap" whichever way you wish - but recognize that even after merely having had even the kind of conversations one has on threads like this, one's making a choice. One's deciding how to "leap," based on what one's decided is the kind of reasoning and evidence which seems sufficient to make such a "leap."

That "leap" may be into atheism, or into some version of Faith, or equally the decision to remain undecided as an agnostic. But it's a decision.

You left out "irrelevant'. I can't believe a God would help someone hit home runs, but not keep people safe inside a church. I'm often told He never gets involved. That, to me, makes his existence irrelevant.

[TomF]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

You left out "irrelevant'. I can't believe a God would help someone hit home runs, but not keep people safe inside a church. I'm often told He never gets involved. That, to me, makes his existence irrelevant.

I think, John, that's also a choice. I lumped it into the atheist/agnostic pile, but YMMV.

Again, you've heard what I think already - trying to not just repeat myself.

[Breakaway]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

As to a previous question; actions likely demonstrate love a wife has for her husband, or visas versa.

John, what is the evidence of love between a husband and wife? Or, any people?

Kevin

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Arguably not good for the beings that live on a planet orbiting that particular star, but good for us.

People like to speculate if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe? I wonder if they survived this phase of their development where their technology outstripped their willingness to work together to control it?

I would not lose sleep over that. Until those stars went nova the heavy elements that went to make rocky planets, and ultimately us, did not exist.

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

I'll take a run at this, but it won't be very satisfying.

I think the purpose of life here on Earth is to learn that we have a stake in the well-being of others and we don't go thru this alone. Having obstacles to overcome and suffering to end is where the rubber meets the road. Does that seem fair? Not really, but it does compel us to become better beings.

What if life were just one long vacation? Would we learn anything, or remain superficial fun-loving beings with no depth?

So I guess the real question is "Why are we not created more God-like?" I think the last beings to ask that question were Adam & Eve and before that it was Satan. It didn't end well for them.

Or, maybe the question is, "Why are we just so stupid that we can't see the reason for it all?" I don't know. We are what we are, but this life does give us a chance to become something better.

Too complicated.
The reason for the existence of life it to replicate genes. Whether it be nearly life like virus's or complex life like a slime mould, it is all about the genes.
We are just another, possibly not so successful, alternative method.

[CWSmith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Here's a question: Why is it we treat our pets humanely, but we don't treat terminally ill humans as humanely.

You mean euthanasia? Perhaps because we don't trust humans to have that much power. Otherwise, I would argue that we do work hard to treat terminally ill humans as humanely as possible, but I do think we can do better.

As to a previous question; actions likely demonstrate love a wife has for her husband, or visas versa. Somehow, I cannot imagine a God who teaches his believers to love each other, tells them to hate gays.

That's because He doesn't.

[CWSmith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Too complicated.
The reason for the existence of life it to replicate genes. Whether it be nearly life like virus's or complex life like a slime mould, it is all about the genes.
We are just another, possibly not so successful, alternative method.

You confuse the reason for life with the means of life, but I suspect that was your intent.

What I said really wasn't complicated at all. It's far less complicated that the genetics you cite. A life that is lived without concern for others is a life without value. We are given this life to learn that lesson, or that's what I think.

[Kevin T]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

By that definition, I'm an atheist, although I'd call it agnostic.

Put me down in the agnostic category as well. I don't have the hubris to be so certain either way and life is just too damn short to mess around with bronze age myths.

Here's a thought experiment. If someone came onto the forum and declared that the Easter Bunny has all the answers to life as long as one fervently believes in the Easter Bunny.

What would the consensus be towards the bunny believer? How is it any different if the belief is Judaeo Christian or anything else taken on "faith"? And why should it be different if you argue it's different?

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

You confuse the reason for life with the means of life, but I suspect that was your intent.

What I said really wasn't complicated at all. It's far less complicated that the genetics you cite. A life that is lived without concern for others is a life without value. We are given this life to learn that lesson, or that's what I think.

No confusion.
Life does not have a meaning. Doe gravity have a meaning, or sunlight?

We evolved the ability to think about abstract stuff, like codifying morality. But that has nowt to do with life in general, just our survival mechanisms, so that we can live long enough to pass our genes forward in time with some hope of success.

[Chris Coose]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

Atheist since I was 9.

[RFNK]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

You confuse the reason for life with the means of life, but I suspect that was your intent.

What I said really wasn't complicated at all. It's far less complicated that the genetics you cite. A life that is lived without concern for others is a life without value. We are given this life to learn that lesson, or that's what I think.

It's a fundamental difference between, say, Buddhism and Christianity. For Buddhists, time is essentially cyclical and the aim is to achieve enlightenment and thus escape the cycle of reincarnation. It's assumed that hardly anyone achieves that aim so it goes on, and on ... But Christianity is more linear - you're born and if you pass the test, you achieve eternal life, or not. The way you put it, CW, is that life is a lesson. I guess the obvious question is about the purpose of that lesson? We know all about mysterious ways and all that but I find the standard answer to meaning of life questions that it is a lesson, a test, even just a phase, to be unsatisfying. A lesson for what? What are those high achievers to do with that learning?

[CWSmith]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

It's a fundamental difference between, say, Buddhism and Christianity. For Buddhists, time is essentially cyclical and the aim is to achieve enlightenment and thus escape the cycle of reincarnation. It's assumed that hardly anyone achieves that aim so it goes on, and on ... But Christianity is more linear - you're born and if you pass the test, you achieve eternal life, or not. The way you put it, CW, is that life is a lesson. I guess the obvious question is about the purpose of that lesson? We know all about mysterious ways and all that but I find the standard answer to meaning of life questions that it is a lesson, a test, even just a phase, to be unsatisfying. A lesson for what? What are those high achievers to do with that learning?

Fundamentalists tend not to view life as a test. There is the familiar refrain "You can't earn your way into Heaven" and I think it's right, although I'm not a fundamentalist.

[RFNK]

Re: Seasonal religion discussion

You mean euthanasia? Perhaps because we don't trust humans to have that much power. Otherwise, I would argue that we do work hard to treat terminally ill humans as humanely as possible, but I do think we can do better.



That's because He doesn't.

With respect, I think this is a classic case of ideology over reason. The effort to achieve really great palliative options is not diminished at all by availability of euthanasia, and pain isn't always the key factor anyway. I find blockage of euthanasia for religious reasons, to be the height of arrogance. I find politicians who block euthanasia for religious reasons to typically be the same ones who happily support military expenditure and civilian casualties in unnecessary conflicts, so it can also be very hypocritical. We abhor assisting a person in agony and despair to end their own life yet we seldom even bother to take action to avoid the deaths of hundreds, or even thousands, of innocent people because we don't like a particular regime. Of course, in the US, with its ridiculous addiction to weaponry, there's another issue again, but really, religion has no place in the issue of euthanasia and religious leaders who oppose it really should hang their heads in shame. At best, they are sacrificing countless desperate victims of disease in their dubious quest for an all-encompassing, fail-proof form of palliative care.