Is a person with an MBE reffered to as.....

[bamamick]

'sir' or 'lady'? Just reading up a bit on Emma Richards and I see that she received her MBE last year. Is she now to be called 'Lady Emma Richards'? How about Ellen? Is she 'Lady Ellen Macarthur'?

Mickey Lake

[ 12-21-2005, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: bamamick ]

[Stiletto]

MBE doesnt have a special name. If being announced formally it would be 'Emma Richards MBE'.

Ellen would be referred to as Dame Ellen.

[Wild Wassa]

If you want to show Dame Ellen more respect, call her Mate, Mate.

Warren.

[Meerkat]

There was a hilarious bit on a britcom ("Yes Minister") about the "meaning" of various awards.

The only one I recall offhand was KCMG: "Kindly Call Me God."

[ 12-21-2005, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

That is about the "The Order of St Michael and St George" - awarded to high ranking civil servants.

CMG (Companion of ~) "Call me God"
KCMG (Knight or Dame Commander of ~) "Kindly Call me God"
GCMG (Knight or Dame Grand Cross of ~) "God Calls me God".

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

OBE = Other Buggers' Efforts
MBE = My Bloody Effort

Emma Richards is Miss Emma Richards, MBE.

A man with a knighthood is Sir John Smith (followed by the appropriate postnomial letters), called to his face "Sir John". Sir John's wife is "Lady Smith".

A dame follows the same protocol - Dame Jane Smith (plus letters), called "Dame Jane". Ellen Macarthur is therefore Dame Ellen Macarthur, DBE.

"Lady Jane Smith" would imply she is the daughter of an Earl, Marquis or Duke, not the wife of a knight. However, Lord Smith's wife is also Lady Smith.

A female peer in her own right technically is Lady Smith, but this in practice is confusing as she may alternatively be the wife of a lord or knight - obviously historically female peers were rare (mainly Scottish) so in practice everyone would know who she was, anyway.

But in recent-ish practice they tend to use the full rank of the peerage - i.e. "Baroness Smith" - this generally applies to life peerages as they are the majority of female peers!

Husband of a Dame is Mr Smith, as is the husband of Baroness Smith. As is the same-sex civil partner as now allowed for under UK law (from yesterday).

All quite complex in practice and evolved over a millenium to clearly indicate degrees of rank, so if you understand it, it makes perfect sense. If not, it's a nightmare...

[ 12-22-2005, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: Andrew S/Y Rocquette ]

[WindHawk]

Say, Dude, is there any beer left?

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

Oh yeah - forgot to add: "If you even care..."

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

Oh yeah - forgot to add: "If you even care..."

[bamamick]

It is all very confusing to someone from the Colonies, but I thank you for the replies.

Mickey Lake

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

About twenty five years ago I worked as a programmer for the "Civil Service Department" - rumoured to have been the model for "The Department of Administrative Affairs" in Yes Minister.

One of the (many) odd things we did was the care and feeding of "The List Of The Great And The Good".

Someone requested a routine to print names and addresses. Which sounds easy only if you haven't tried to do it.

Few people make it onto that list without at the very least a string of letters after their name, and often a complicated title.

The kit of parts looks like this:
Rt. Hon, Military Rank (Air Vice-Marshall or the like), Prof/Mr/Sir/Etc Name[-Name..] then the list of "Decorations" MRCVS, DFC, "and bar", FRS......

And yes - there is a precedence list......

The design review meetings went on for months.

The poor sod who actually had the code this routine used to joke that he lived in fear of an EARL being awarded the OBE - and thus becomming an EARLOBE.

[Thorne]

Andrew -

Yes, we care! Thanks for the clarification - nicely put.

Are *all* French-derived titles like "Marquess" Anglicized in pronunciation, or just some? I kept saying "Marquee" for years until corrected repeatedly.

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

All Anglicised these days - Marquis is also now the accepted spelling. Viscount has a silent "s" but is otherwise fully pronounced. We have Earls (from the Scandinavian/Germanic "Jarl" with "Count" only being retained for the feminine "Countess" - so it's the "Earl and Countess of Annandale")...

There are peers of England, Scotland, Ireland and Great Britain, depending on their date of creation - we also have peers by writ (the old Engish baronies called into existence by the holder being summonsed to parliament) and those created by letters patent (all the others).

Scotland's lowest grade of peerage is not a baron but a "Lord of Parliament" as there are also feudal baronies in Scotland.

We have baronets who are effectively hereditary knighthoods, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...one can go on ad infinitum...!

[ 12-22-2005, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Andrew S/Y Rocquette ]

[Sea Frog]

I wonder what that Esquire thing is about now?
Does is mean you're an overall nice guy, rather than e.g. a paedophile with terminal foot fungus or a Frenchman? Or is it the most democratic form of nobility, the final result of a Centuries long popular struggle? Or am I mistaking Esq. for Esquimau, which would imply a whole different set of qualifications?

[Alan D. Hyde]

In parts of the U.S., particularly in New England, communications with a lawyer are frequently addressed to Joe or Jane Smith, Esquire.

This is a mere traditional courtesy.

I have never investigated its origins...

Alan